Drow Noble: Why do People Freak?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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One of the things Pathfinder had as a goal was to remove the level adjustment from races. It was a very poorly done system that barely worked for what it was meant to do. So they got rid of it.

Except for the Drow Noble. Despite their goal of removing Level Adjustment, they recognized that drow nobles were so overpowered compared to the base races that they kept the level adjustment for the race.

Additional info here.

Silver Crusade

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I think nowadays the stance is simply Don't do LA, just go off the new CR and throw stronger stuff at the players. If the other players are fine with it then it's all good.


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People freak because Drow Nobles get more stuff than other races. Ergo, you get a boost to everything where other players need to level up a bit before they can get as good as you are, unbalancing the party and making you the biggest threat the whole game, sucking the fun for everyone else.

If you are making a Drow and taking the feats to get to Noble... that's balanced because you progress with the party.


To get to honesty from the OP.

Why do you want to play a drow noble?


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Wraithkin wrote:

Second, SR as a base ability without having to give anything up is something that is not a common racial trait. While it can be very bad when someone tries to heal you, it's also extremely powerful.

(...)

To be fair, SR is more a hassle than a benefit, Poison Use (and poison in general) is very weak and constant Detect Magic is not much better than simply having Detect Magic as a cantrip. If those were the only things Drow Nobles had going for them, the race would present no problem...

But their amazing attribute bonuses and at-will 3rd level spells put them considerably above other playable races on the power scale.

Shadow Lodge

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The Genie wrote:

Ok which one is it.

Either they are killed on sight for being a drow.
Or
They dont know what a drow is and thus wouldnt randomly kill them.

In my campaign in the Golarion setting:

DC somewhere probably in the 30 range assuming the following:

You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster's CR, or more.

If a creature can identify you they might very well kill you on sight unless their goals, according to the stereotypes, align with yours. Some creatures would be willing to give you the benefit of doubt and allow you to prove your worth, value, and intent. That said, they would probably always be wary of you, expecting the typical behavior to eventually surface.

Finally, rumors would eventually reach the Lantern Bearers and they would send out ever increasing squads to eradicate you.

Sovereign Court

Zhayne wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
The Genie wrote:
The arguement of "well they are monsters so they would be attacked on sight." So does that mean goblins and orcs can never ever be played?
Yes. Yes it does.
No, no it doesn't. Completely campaign dependent.

I wasn't making a statement. I was confirming his logic. (admittedly - a bit snarkily) By the same logic that you can't play drow due to them being monstrous/evil, you can't play goblins/orcs because they're monstrous/evil.


Lemmy wrote:
Wraithkin wrote:

Second, SR as a base ability without having to give anything up is something that is not a common racial trait. While it can be very bad when someone tries to heal you, it's also extremely powerful.

(...)

To be fair, SR is more a hassle than a benefit, Poison Use (and poison in general) is very weak and constant Detect Magic is not much better than simply having Detect Magic as a cantrip. If those were the only things Drow Nobles had going for them, the race would present no problem...

But their amazing attribute bonuses and at-will 3rd level spells put them considerably above other playable races on the power scale.

Deeper Darkness is a Hassle to cast, if done in Dim lighting then it blinds even the Drow who is using it. Sure it can be handy for escape but hardly combative. And there are plenty of monsters with Darkvision to reduces its prowess in combat later on.

Also Sunlight Weakness is a pain in the butt requiring a pretty expensive item (Especially if you do not allow Rare Cantrips)


The Genie wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Wraithkin wrote:

Second, SR as a base ability without having to give anything up is something that is not a common racial trait. While it can be very bad when someone tries to heal you, it's also extremely powerful.

(...)

To be fair, SR is more a hassle than a benefit, Poison Use (and poison in general) is very weak and constant Detect Magic is not much better than simply having Detect Magic as a cantrip. If those were the only things Drow Nobles had going for them, the race would present no problem...

But their amazing attribute bonuses and at-will 3rd level spells put them considerably above other playable races on the power scale.

Deeper Darkness is a Hassle to cast, if done in Dim lighting then it blinds even the Drow who is using it. Sure it can be handy for escape but hardly combative. And there are plenty of monsters with Darkvision to reduces its prowess in combat later on.

Also Sunlight Weakness is a pain in the butt requiring a pretty expensive item (Especially if you do not allow Rare Cantrips)

Still doesn't compensate their amazing attribute bonuses. And Deeper Darkness is not that much of a hassle.

Why not play a normal drow? Seriously... Why does it have to be a drow noble?


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Drow Noble bonuses aren't any more powerful than the things characters between 3rd and 5th level are able to do. Their stat bonuses are about the same as having a few attribute boosting items.

In a game below third level Drow Nobles are quite powerful. By third level the power curve starts to even out. Past fifth level most parties won't notice a significant difference in power between the Drow and core race party members.

The same holds true for weak races like Kobolds. The power discrepancies between races become less significant as the game goes up in level.

A good way to handle Drow Noble players is to give them the stats of a normal drow until 5th level, and then have them "grow up" or "harness their nobility." Make it a plot event, or a ritual that costs a few thousand gold. Essentially, treat the extra bonuses as a sort of treasure.

This approach works with most powerful races.


Isnt that also how savage species basically works?

Because i agree after a few levels or if u start at level 5 it really does event out more.


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Doomed Hero wrote:
Drow Noble bonuses aren't any more powerful than the things characters between 3rd and 5th level are able to do. Their stat bonuses are about the same as having a few attribute boosting items.

Except that drow nobles get their bonuses in addition to their character level and gear.

Using LA might balance things, though.

I personally don't like using LA and would simply not allow a drow noble. The same character concept can most likely be done just as well with a normal drow. The only thing the drow noble adds is better abilities, which makes me think the player is far more interested in getting a power boost than role playing a drow character, so I'd feel even more disinclined to allow a player to use it in a normal game.


Why Drow Noble. What common Drow would have the will to resist indoctrination into the evil lifestyles of the Drow community. Also sure the lanterns might come but there is items of slter self diguise and so forth. Also if you do get the party to trust you then they will back you up.

And again can not have it both ways either people know of the Drow and what they are. Or thry dont know and will be suspicious but more likely to give you benefit of the doubt.


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If I wanted to play a human in the same party as your noble drow, how many bonus feats do I get at 1st level to balance things out?


The Genie wrote:
Why Drow Noble. What common Drow would have the will to resist indoctrination into the evil lifestyles of the Drow community...

He he i am gonna use a variant of that one when i play a Hobgoblin in my next campaign and want a few extra feats and some extra points to built him. Ore pehaps my next character grew up in a Evil Cult and need the extra power to survive his character background;)


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Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If I wanted to play a human in the same party as your noble drow, how many bonus feats do I get at 1st level to balance things out?

None i would give you the advanced template.


The Genie wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If I wanted to play a human in the same party as your noble drow, how many bonus feats do I get at 1st level to balance things out?
None i would give you the advanced template.

this one

"Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less)."
I would play a monk then but the game dosent work well with that kind of power in the hands of the PCs in my experiance.


The Genie wrote:

Why Drow Noble. What common Drow would have the will to resist indoctrination into the evil lifestyles of the Drow community. Also sure the lanterns might come but there is items of slter self diguise and so forth. Also if you do get the party to trust you then they will back you up.

And again can not have it both ways either people know of the Drow and what they are. Or thry dont know and will be suspicious but more likely to give you benefit of the doubt.

Yo. I feel you on the latter point. I constantly play Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins. The fluff of the game can be refitted in any way -- "oh, yeah, you are a Drow Noble but... you come from a caste that's known for being nice to people and/or not universally hated and/or not very known and/or you, personally, are not a huge douche."

That's fine. That's perfect. I encourage it. People who argue that need to get their heads out of the beginner's box and enjoy world-building with their players.

You still didn't answer my reason to freak out though:

People freak because Drow Nobles get a level of benefits of roughly 250% more than other races. Ergo, you get a boost to everything where other players need to level up a bit before they can get as good as you are, unbalancing the party and making you the biggest threat the whole game, sucking the fun for everyone else.

If you are making a Drow and taking the feats to get to Noble... that's balanced because you progress with the party.


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The Genie wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If I wanted to play a human in the same party as your noble drow, how many bonus feats do I get at 1st level to balance things out?
None i would give you the advanced template.

You've pretty much answered your own thread.

Drow Nobles are a race choice that is so powerful, that the GM has to grant templates and such to everyone else to balance things out. As a GM, it's easier to say "No" to one player than it is to add more tweaks and hand-waves to balance out the other players.


The Genie wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If I wanted to play a human in the same party as your noble drow, how many bonus feats do I get at 1st level to balance things out?
None i would give you the advanced template.

But you said the spell like abilities can be gained with feats?


Drow have racial feats that grant all the drow noble abilitiez including the better sr.
Most races do not have similar racial feats.

And the taking of feats also cripple the class builds.


The Genie wrote:

Ok which one is it.

Either they are killed on sight for being a drow.
Or
They dont know what a drow is and thus wouldnt randomly kill them.

With your standard murderhobos either one would work. :D


KenderKin wrote:

Usually a drow or drow noble or goblin or whatever only really "works" if the entire party is playing the same thing.

No player wants to play goblin "toady" to a drow noble PC!

I suggest that you inquire about an all drow (noble) campaign.

I would lol


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Seems to me this thread can be summarized as follows:
The Genie: "Why do people freak out about using the Drow Noble race?"
Common Responses: "Because it's far more powerful than other races, a munchkin-y choice, not meant for PCs, and unfair to the other players."
The Genie: "I don't care about that."

I feel like you already knew what everyone was going to say regarding the matter. It's obvious to me you look at things differently than the vast majority of the paizo community. If you want to allow this race in your games, hey, that's your call. What the GM says, goes. That doesn't make it fair, but that's for you and your players to hash out. You want to play a Drow Noble in someone else's game and they say no? Tough cookies man, that's that GM's prerogative.


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1. Because in Golarion drow are pretty much universally evil, even more so than any other campaign setting I can think of. I don't think they've published a single drow that was not evil, and drow are in fact what happens when elves go really bad. Thus, attempting to play non-evil drow will be met with skepticism by those at many tables. There's also a lingering legacy of 'Drow fanboys' as a result of the Drizzt novels. Basically, for good or for ill, most people associate those that want to play drow with players they probably don't want at a serious and mature table because they are disrespecting the established lore.

2. Because in Golarion drow are incredibly rare, and virtually unknown on the surface. Casually allowing people to play members of a race that is so rare can easily cheapen said race. The same can be true of many races outside of core that rarely appears. I know many GMs unwilling to allow races outside of core, a few planetouched and common monsters, and their standard variants.

3. Because Drow noble is literally four times as powerful as the human in terms of racial abilities, and allowing one player to play a race four times as powerful as everyone else's rarely ends well. The GM either has to power up everyone else (which he may not wish to simply to accommodate you) or risk horribly unbalancing the table because he's allowed you preferential treatment.

4. Because showing up to a table playing a much more powerful race that is universally evil and incredibly rare forces the GM to stop and adjust everything to either fit you in or wait for you to revise your character sheet. It's on par with showing up with a higher level character and demanding to play it. I remember once, years ago, we had a guy show up at our (5th level) table with a classed great wyrm gold dragon that he'd "been playing for years" assuming he could play it. You'd get a slightly milder but similar response if you showed up with a Drow Noble out of the blue.

5. Because if you act the same way at the table as you have here (insults at posters, straw man arguments, refusal to discuss the matter rationally to the point of trolling) then people probably just don't want the headache while they are trying to have fun and enjoy their hobby.


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Would not freak at all if a drow noble was in a campaign starting at level 2 or higher.

Per the rules in the Bestiary "Playing monsters as characters" it has a CR of 1 so adds 1 to the level of the characgter.

So with a 5th level party you could be a Wizard 5 or a Drow Noble Wizard 4... guess it depends how much you want third level spells.


The Genie wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If I wanted to play a human in the same party as your noble drow, how many bonus feats do I get at 1st level to balance things out?
None i would give you the advanced template.

And raise the adventure level, right? So the game is not totally a cakewalk?

So what you just basically did is grant everyone extra levels.


The Genie wrote:

Drow have racial feats that grant all the drow noble abilitiez including the better sr.

Most races do not have similar racial feats.

And the taking of feats also cripple the class builds.

You are right. But, the fact remains, that in order to even out the difference between the drow noble and every other playable race, you would have to give everyone else:

4 bonus feats
3 +2 bonuses to add to stats.

Thats how much over everyone else the drow noble is. Thats alot, and its why most people wouldn't even consider allowing it.


I am not saying that the Drow Noble is not powerful it is in fact vastly powerful.

But I was not really talking about the whole well mechanically its stronger aspect.

Why do people freak if you mention playing a Drow and especially a drow noble? People seem to outright act like the sky is going to fall if you play one. Honestly some of the people on here are talking like if you started at level 20 ECL that a Drow would still be far too powerful let alone a Drow Noble.

Honestly Drow is an interesting race because I like playing against the grain myself. Like a Scholarly Centaur (Chiron style) or a Chaotic Neutral Drow who doesn't automatically wanna enslave the universe. Being handcuffed to a style of personality based off race is well.. Racist to be honest.

Humans can run the gambit from good and wholesome to utterly evil. Yet everyone says Drow are wholesale evil or else they are killed. Well what if one survived an attempt as assassination. A discarded newborn thought to be left to the spiders being found and taken away to be raised as a Drow who hates other drows or just hates evil in general due to a personal vendetta. Not a good motivation but hating evil is common.

Yes I know about Drizzt but only in name and reputation I have never read the canon sources about him. So he plays no part in my thought process on a good or neutral aligned Drow.

Yes Drow Noble is powerful, and is said to be a CR 1, so at level 5 you would be CR 1/Class 4 to get your ECL. This is what is suggested by one of the dev team.

And yes I tend to Gestalt Classes if I am allowing in powerful players, they start with perks.. and face a daunting drawback due to it.

At Will Levitate is sweet, but not impossible to overcome. At Will Deeper Darkness is awesome but lots of races have or can trade racial traits for Dark Vision and if done in an improper place it hinders the drow as much. Their ability scores are powerful yes, but having a hit to con is painful meaning it loses more health, and with an empty CR this means they are even more fragile then a normal elf.

Shadow Lodge

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The Genie wrote:


Honestly Drow is an interesting race because I like playing against the grain myself. Like a Scholarly Centaur (Chiron style) or a Chaotic Neutral Drow who doesn't automatically wanna enslave the universe. Being handcuffed to a style of personality based off race is well.. Racist to be honest.

...

Humans can run the gambit from good and wholesome to utterly evil. Yet everyone says Drow are wholesale evil or else they are killed. Well what if one survived an attempt as assassination. A discarded newborn thought to be left to the spiders being found and taken away to be raised as a Drow who hates other drows or just hates evil in general due to a personal vendetta. Not a good motivation but hating evil is common.

...

For myself at least, why can't that centaur be a kellid barbarian scholar who has left behind the tribal life? Why is it a drow and not just an elf who has forsaken his familial ties?

I have had too many players want to the play that super rare one in a million exception to the rule. When I was much younger I even allowed it. I then found that it created a scenario where that one person was super happy and having fun while the other players grew to resent the character.
Later, I tried to allow all options. I let one person play the Noble Drow who has seen the light of the sun and turned around, then the next player played the redeemed succubus, and finally the third player wants to played the lycanthrope who has fallen in love with a vampire and had a baby.

While this isn't a bad thing, it's not quite designed for the world of Golarion as currently written. Racism abounds and often times for good reason. Alignment is a thing that exists and often creatures are tied to their alignment in ways that supersede things like free will. This results in certain facts that create multiple racist cultures and other social issues related to race.

I hope that clears up some of the none mechanical reasons that some people will not allow drow.

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