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So I'm preparing to make a character for a friend's WotR campaign, and I've settled on a Warpriest of Desna. I was originally going to simply use a Flying Blade of Desna, but decided against it for flavor reasons (many related to said character's backstory). I'm not sure if he's using Mythic or not, but I'd like to make a Warpriest using starknives (since Sacred Weapon makes them much better in terms of damage). I was thinking of using TWF with starknives, and perhaps using a DEX-based build with them?
Tl;dr: Please halp with dual-wielding starknife warpriest of Desna for builds, please and thank you. (P.S. Not using a human)
Edit: This doesn't mean I'm looking for a super-optimized build, mind you. I want to be capable in a fight, but...you know.
Bump. :x
The only problem is that if you plan to throw starknives, they don't retain the sacred weapon boost after being thrown. You might be able to get your GM to houserule that since it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I wouldn't recommend TWF because you need a hand free to cast spells. Dex can work, but strength is better since warpriests get heavy armor proficiency and don't need Dex for AC so much. Some Dex is fine, but not more than maybe 14.
In regards to a free hand, couldn't you just drop one starknife and pick it up again? If I recall, that counts as a free action. In any case, I was going to focus more on slashing with them, in this case. I just figured that using Dex to attack, then getting high Dex for improved AC could be nice. (Then again, I can't recall if starknives are Finesseable.)
A starknife is a light weapon, so finesseable. Asking your GM about sacred weapon while throwing would be a good idea and a reasonable house rule.
Baha makes a good point about how to cast spells. Dropping an item is a free action, but picking it up is a move action that provokes. You could use weapon cords, but they were errata'd to be a move action instead of a swift. That's another thing you could ask your GM about, as mine thought that was dumb in PFS and kept the original swift-action recovery time with the cords. To avoid gunslinger shenanigans, he made the much more reasonable ruling that having move than one attached to a limb changes it from a swift action to a full-round action or somesuch.
edit- the switch action trick would be an issue at higher levels if you're casting quickened spells, but before that it'll be fine.
Mmmm, if it's that tricky to use TWF with them, I might just stick with a single starknife...Or perhaps see about getting that special starknife that turns into two, depending on whether the "ghostly" starknife can be dismissed at will. That'd be pretty neat. =P So assuming I want to go with a melee version of a starknife Warpriest, might I be so bold as to ask for advice? Feats I could look into and the like? Warpriest is rather pressed for swift actions. =P
Edit: That's actually a dagger, the Dagger of Doubling.
Maybe I'll ask if it'd be possible to enchant a starknife with something similar. .w.
The Warpriest doesn't need a hand free to cast if he's using fervor to swift-action cast a spell on himself; a fervor casting also doesn't provoke. Really, in combat a Warpriest is absurdly primed for self-casting and not really all that great for general support anyways.
The Warpriest is also about as good a candidate for a divine character using TWF as there is for a lot of assorted reasons.
I don't know why people say Sacred Weapon stops working when a weapon is thrown, the text says straight out it works.
Dropping a starknife is a free action, yes, but picking it up is a move action that provokes and there are many circumstances in which dropping it isn't safe, e.g. swimming, flying, when it looks like you may have to retreat at any moment, etc.
Starknives are finessable, but consider this:
Human, 20 pb
STR-based warpriest:
18 STR
14 Dex
12 CON
10 INT
14 WIS
8 CHA
Bonus Feat: Weapon focus (starknife)
Feat 1: Toughness
Feat Human: Fey Foundling, Improved Initiative or Lightning Reflexes
Traits: Fate's Favored and a campaign trait
She will have an attack bonus of +5 with the weapon, do damage of 1d6+4, and with four-mirror armor and a light shield have an AC of 19. Casting Divine Favor will bring that to +7/1d6+6. Whetstone can be used on the blade to give a +1 to damage for the first successful attack.
At level 3, she will presumably take Power attack, and she will have an attack bonus of +7 when power attacking (assuming she gets at least a masterwork weapon), doing 1d6+6 damage, and +9/1d6+8 when casting Divine favor. This isn't two-handed barbarian territory, but it's not bad. Assuming she's gotten decent heavy armor, such as O-yoroi or tatami-do, her AC will be in the neighborhood of 20-22, before any magic bonuses.
Let's compare the Dex-based warpriest.
14 STR
18 Dex
12 CON
10 INT
14 WIS
8 CHA
Bonus Feat: Weapon focus (starknife)
Feat 1: Toughness
Feat Human: Weapon Finesse
Traits: Fate's Favored and a campaign trait
She'll have the same +5 bonus to the attack, but will only do 1d6+2 damage. She'll also be missing the benefit of the additional feat which was given up to take Weapon Finesse.
Since she doesn't want to lose her Dex bonus to AC, and she won't want to use a shield until she can afford a masterwork one (often-overlooked rule: weapon finesse applies the ACP of a shield to one's attack rolls) the best armor is Kikko armor which gives her, without a shield, AC of 19 = same as she would have had with the heavier armor.
At level 3, assuming she's taking power attack, she'll have the same attack roll as listed above, but for AC, ordinary armors with a max Dex of +4 don't go higher than an armor bonus of +5. To get a higher AC, she'll have to shell out for Mithral, which is much more expensive than heavy armors, in order to get a given AC -- or just get heavy armor and allow the dex bonus to be wasted. In character classes that have access to heavy armor, high Dex actually doesn't help your AC much at all.
Dual Talent makes it (barely) possible to use a Strength-based TWF character:
STR 16/18
DEX 15/17
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 8
Or if optimization isn't that important you can drop starting strength a little; -1attack and damage is hardly the end of the world on a character with a ton of bonuses.
Missing out on the last TWF is pretty irrelevant, especially when you're going to want Two Weapon Rend with strength more. Throwing isn't going to be super-accurate and may be better left to one hand, but on the other hand thrown damage goes up.
The more optimized way to run a TWF warpriest would be with a Cestus or Unarmed Strike offhand crossed with a one-handed weapon in the mainhand - you two-hand your main weapon until it's time to full attack - but it's hardly necessary.
Now that I actually read the Warpriest entry again, I don't see why there'd be any issue with thrown weapons and sacred weapon.
And I was about to comment on BB's assertion about using Fervor, but it's right there at the very end of the fervor section: "The warpriest does not need to have a free hand to cast a spell in this way."
Free Quicken spell for self-buffs is amazing, I didn't envision myself using Fervor for much else when I first read it. You'd still need a free hand for offensive spells or mass buffs, but it'd be manageable with weapon cords or just carrying backup knives.
One problem with TWF/throwing weapons is the cost of enchanting multiple weapons. Luckily, the warpriest could just enchant some of the blades and keep one to two magic weapon (or Greater) spell ready to use with fervor.
Do you know how you're determining stats? Starting at level 1?
One issue with DEX builds is the lack of damage, and getting multiple agile starknives would be difficult. You could ask your GM if he would allow starknives to work with the Slashing Grace feat (which is very reasonable), then you could get Dex to damage with Weapon Focus/Weapon Finesse/Slashing Grace. Add to that Two-Weapon Fighting and that's at least 4 feats you'll need. Doable by level 3 at least, though. As a human you could start with Slashing Grace at level 1, and pick up TWF at 3.
The only archetypes I saw that traded in heavy armor were the Cult Leader and Sacred Fist, but I get the feeling they might not fit your concept. Take a look though.
Beyond that, what else do you want the character to do? Have you picked out some of the Blessings you'd like? Are you envisioning a nimble, up-close fighter with divine backup? Someone who smites her foes with holy magic before closing in and finishing them off in melee or with thrown starknives? It seems like a fun concept.
edit- ninjas
Fair enough for comparisons, though as mentioned, I'm not going to use a human. =P I know they're great for the extra feat, but I just want to do something different.
Also, I still sort of want to TWF...Hrm. The party thus far is an Oracle and a Fighter (for primary healing and meatshield/damage, respectively), so it puts me in an odd spot of freedom. The oracle is also doing some support, mind you...
Edit: We're using the "grid" method of picking stat arrays. The others chose the ones they wanted, so my stat array would be: 13, 16, 14, 11, 17, 18
In terms of what I wanted her to do...She'd be a wide-eyed adventurer, and in combat, I see her as a sort of "rapid slasher" type, hence the idea of using TWF starknives. So she prefers getting in close with the daggers. She very much prefers buffing over "destructive" spells, whether it's self-buffing or group buffing, but she's more of an offensive warpriest, as opposed to a "support" warpriest.
For blessings, I was strongly considering the Liberation portion, because those effects are far too amazing to pass up, not to mention it's easy to work into the back-story.
To get a higher AC, she'll have to shell out for Mithral, which is much more expensive than heavy armors
I just want to point out that a mithral chain shirt is cheaper than MW Full Plate, by a few hundred gp.
BadBird, I have a cleric who TWF with a sword and unarmed strike. She also uses domain strike to apply debuffs from her domains. Pretty fun, actually.
BadBird, I have a cleric who TWF with a sword and unarmed strike. She also uses domain strike to apply debuffs from her domains. Pretty fun, actually.
Domain Strike: Touch of Chaos and Domain Strike: Gentle Rest are just awesome for anyone with at least one level of Cleric and some wisdom; somewhat on-topic, you could actually do a Cleric1/WarpriestX with Domain Strike very nicely. Like an 'Iron-Fisted' Gorumite who makes one punch per round - in-between greatsword swings - with Dragon Style and a sacred weapon gauntlet, punching chaos into his foes.
More on topic, to OP: if you want to TWF with a Warpriest it's totally doable in many ways, just figure out what theme you want.
By "theme", what exactly do you mean, Bird?
Those are great stats. With that kind of array you could easily play a character with high strength and Dex both. Here's one way you could do it, without racial modifiers included:
Str 17
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 11
Add in racial modifiers where you like. Really, with stats like this you could even take a penalty in an important stat (like -2 str if you really wanted to play a halflif warpriest for some reason) and offset it with one of the high numbers. So you can pick whichever race you like based on flavor/special abilities/color/etc.
The high Strength will allow you to deal decent damage even without Dex to damage, though I would try to boost Dex to make weapon finesse more worth it, if that's the image you have. I put the 14 in wisdom since you wanted to be more combat focused, but you could easily switch it with Con or Str, especially if your GM lets you use Slashing Grace with the starknives.
INT and CHA don't do anything special for a warpriest, but they're nice to have. You could swap them if you want to be more charismatic instead of knowledgeable/skilled.
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Two-weapon fighting, free Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace (ask your GM about using light weapons). Power attack would probably be useful, and you could offset the penalties with your good stats. Beyond that I don't have a solid build for a warpriest, but here are some feats you might be interested in: Quicken Blessing, Divine Interference (depends on how often you use your swift actions), Dodge/Mobility, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Divine Protection (you'd need to rearrange your stats to get a good Cha, if your GM allows this broken feat). It's late and I can't think of much else. If you wanted to get trip/disarm/other maneuver feats you could go for those. At least the 13 INT needed for combat expertise will be easy to get.
Mithral breast plate is probably the armor you'd want when you can afford it. It'll let you move at full speed and take advantage of your high Dex. Before that, a MW chain shirt is good.
For race, I don't know how exotic you want. A tiefling probably wouldn't be a great idea in WotR, but I don't know the AP so it might be a fun RP opportunity. With a stat array like this I'd be tempted to run with the small-but-tough halfling warpriest.
The "Good" blessing might be a nice second choice for your character. I imagine having easy access to a good-aligned weapon would be useful against demons. A standard-action summon at 10th level is also pretty cool. It would also be situational enough that it wouldn't compete with using your fervors on quickened buff spells, unlike Luck. Desna has some of the best cleric domains, so I imagine her blessings also provide an abundance of choice.
Fate's Favored is a good trait that complements the buff spell Divine Favor. It also boosts the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (great item). You could use your other trait to get a class skill that warpriests don't get but fits your concept. Acrobatics, maybe?
It's late, so that's all the suggestions I have right now.
I figured that last post would be ninja'd (kinda).
Addendum: What Bird means by 'theme,' is how you envision the character. There are a looooooot of feats out there, so it can help to narrow your choice by the flavor you're looking for. How to you imagine the character moving while fighting? How do they interact with people? Friends/Strangers? Lower/higher social status? Where do they come from and what are they trying to accomplish?
BadBird, I have a cleric who TWF with a sword and unarmed strike. She also uses domain strike to apply debuffs from her domains. Pretty fun, actually.Domain Strike: Touch of Chaos and Domain Strike: Gentle Rest are just awesome for anyone with at least one level of Cleric and some wisdom; somewhat on-topic, you could actually do a Cleric1/WarpriestX with Domain Strike very nicely. Like an 'Iron-Fisted' Gorumite who makes one punch per round - in-between greatsword swings - with Dragon Style and a sacred weapon gauntlet, punching chaos into his foes.
More on topic, to OP: if you want to TWF with a Warpriest it's totally doable in many ways, just figure out what theme you want.
My PC worships Groetus, so she uses the Touch of Chaos (awesome!) or Touch of Darkness domain power. Might swap Darkness for Madness, as they're all pretty nice!
Aah...Hm, let's see...
I imagine her moving surprisingly quickly while in armor, perhaps due to her wandering/exploring as a hobby. Not exceptionally quick, but enough to catch enemies off-guard from time-to-time. Once she's up close, I imagine her to be a rapid slasher, getting in multiple attacks in a short window of time, perhaps at the cost of some damage. In terms of social interactions, she'd be fairly friendly, keeping true to Desna's guidelines. Very friendly, joking around, but never really rude.
Definitely not afraid to try new things in the heat of the moment (spontaneity), though somewhat naive about things in general. She can joke in the middle of combat, and might even apologize to an enemy she downs. She might be more careful with strangers (high SM check), but she gives the benefit of the doubt as long as she has a reason to do so. Haven't figured out much of her backstory yet, though...It's quite likely that she came to Kenabres as a short pit stop on her journey, or that she saw potential for an adventure. After all, how many chances does one get to help protect Golarion? =P
A wandering Desnan faithful is certainly not a bad idea! And as a warpriest it would make a little more sense for her to head towards the crusades.
The 'Lunge' feat might be a 'catch off guard' type of combat move you'd like.
Sounds like you'd want a decent charisma score as well. If you want her to win people over easier, grabbing diplomacy (or a trait boosting it) would be useful.
One of the Pathfinder Tales novels has a desnan priestess of sorts. Not quite a 'warpriest,' but it gives some good insight into the religion. I believe it's called Prince of Wolves.
Well I had a whole post... but yeah, what Paulicus said, he ninja'd everything really. Great, great array for limitless options.
She'll be strong and dextrous; which is she more of? Dextrous would mean that she'd be well-protected in a light or mithral medium armor, would have better initiative to strike first more often, would have better reflexes for jumping out of danger etc. Stronger would mean some more damage, and not having to use a light weapon or a rapier.
Does she wear super-heavy armor (she won't be able to move quickly, generally), or does she get a mithral medium armor that allows faster movement? Strong or Dextrous works with either really, with those stats.
Do you want to use two starknives? You can use pretty much anything you want to with a Warpriest, whoever your god is - the only real limit is that light weapons or rapiers will work much better for a dextrous character. So imagine whatever weapon or combo of weapons you'd like - though starknives are totally fine and have the benefit of throwing if you want to go that way. Pairing a weapon with an unarmed strike - kick or punch or whatever kung-fu you like - can also open up some interesting options and keep a hand free for spells, if that appeals to you.
She'd definitely be using two starknives when possible, though the possibility for Weapon Focus in Unarmed Strike is there, and she'd probably end up wearing mithral medium armor, since my headcanon has me imagining it as being slightly more flexible, allowing for a greater freedom of movement. Of course, I could always take a drawback for an extra trait and get a bit more oomph out of heavy armor (such as Armor Master).
If we go with the idea that she's more dextrous than she is strong, I can see her flipping all over the place during her full-round actions like an acrobat (although the idea of just going Str is beginning to appeal a bit more, honestly.)
Edit: Hilariously enough, going with the idea of Aasimar, I decided to roll on the SLA/Cosmetic tables and show the DM. I got the +2 Dex SLA. XD For cosmetics, I rolled a 100, re-rolled 3 times, and got "Primatic Shadow", "Halo", and "Butterfly Wings". This has to happen. :|
Bump before work gets close~
Sounds gaudy :P Of all classes a warpriest probably has the tendency for it though!
You could do some amazing things with those stats, especially with another Dex bonus. Aasimar are ridiculous :P You can easily have a great strength and Dex. Strength would free up some feats, and with a decent Dex you can still dance around the battlefield with grace. (Grace might actually be a good spell here, too).
Believer's Boon is a feat from the ACG that lets you snag the 1st-level domain powers for one of your deity's domains or two. Could be useful!
Did I mention Quicken Blessing? Possibly useful depending on your choices.
Someone is making a warpriest guide in another thread in this forum. Might be worth a look. I can't think of any other suggestions right now.
If you go improved unarmed Strike it opens up all the style feat options; the Warpriest has bonus feats that grant BAB = level, so you can grab things like Crane Style much earlier than usual. Crane Style involves a serious investment, but it's a pretty impressive 'jump around' kind of kung-fu supremacy thing once it comes together (level 9). The Warpriest really is liberating in how many bonus feats it gets...
If you want to use two starknives, or throw starknives, Quick-Draw is a must.
Interesting backstory by the way, I'm just focusing on combat flavor because it tends to be where the mechanics meet the build choices; I'm a sad little pseudo-theme-optimizing creature.
Blinkback belt is definitely better than returning weapons!