Creature under suggestion spell is attacked by caster, does the spell ends?


Rules Questions


I have come to this suggestion.
1) Creature A suggests creature B to play a piano
2) Creature B starts playing
3) Creature A decides to kill creature B when the music performed is poor quality
4) Creature A casts a harmful spell over creature B
5) What happens next?

My questions are specifically:
1- Does creature B stop playing and try to defend from the attack?
2- Does the spell breaks?
3- If the spell does not break, does it break once creature A is unconcious or killed?


GM Rutseg wrote:

I have come to this suggestion.

1) Creature A suggests creature B to play a piano
2) Creature B starts playing
3) Creature A decides to kill creature B when the music performed is poor quality
4) Creature A casts a harmful spell over creature B
5) What happens next?

Suggestion

Spoiler:
You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

The suggested course of activity can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell duration expires, the activity is not performed.

A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as -1 or -2).

GM Rutseg wrote:

My questions are specifically:

1- Does creature B stop playing and try to defend from the attack?

Survival trumps playing. Unless the suggestion was to not defend, they get to defend. If is was to not defend, I expect that might auto-make the save.

GM Rutseg wrote:
2- Does the spell breaks?

They get an initial save and that is it. No later save to break like some other spells.

GM Rutseg wrote:
3- If the spell does not break, does it break once creature A is unconcious or killed?

The duration is 1H/L or complete. Target is one living creature. This means going unconscious does not break it, but being killed does.

/cevah


What if creature B allies are attacked?
Does he stops his course of actions? Does he even notice?

I think the creature is still on his own will, it's just somehow forced to keep doing the suggested action, so as far as he continues doing it, he can do whatever he wants. Am I right? If helping his allies forces him to stop the action he was suggested to do, then he cannot help, and has to keep playing in this case.


It's not quite what you asked, but trying to make someone play an instrument in combat (if they normally wouldn't) probably wouldn't be a reasonable suggestion. I would rule that such a suggestion would become unreasonable if combat broke out, though it would depend on the PCs personality, the suggestion, and the situation at hand.

One good idea for suggestion is "Run away" or "go get help," both of which would move the target away from combat and avoid that problem.


The way I see it, if you attack the creature while he's playing the piano (the suggestion) then he is not restricted to only playing the piano and can retaliate to your aggression. Should he kill you successfully defend himself, he would go back to playing the piano until the duration of suggestion ends.

It's not complete and utterly restrictive mind control, it's just a mental imperative that you should do a certain thing. But not to the point of disregarding all other activities and events around you.


That's a good point.
The suggestion was done before any combat or danger started.
So you think if during the spell duration a condition makes the suggestion not reasonable any more, the creature is automatically released from the spell's will?
The spell says nothing about what happens if conditions changes during the course of the action, it's not helping us in that sense.


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GM Rutseg wrote:

That's a good point.

The suggestion was done before any combat or danger started.
So you think if during the spell duration a condition makes the suggestion not reasonable any more, the creature is automatically released from the spell's will?
The spell says nothing about what happens if conditions changes during the course of the action, it's not helping us in that sense.

It's more like I don't think the spell completely overrides the creatures ability to think and act in a mostly normal way, except the creature has been convinced that he really really wants to do this one thing. But there are plenty of things that could convince him that he needs to address a situaiton before returning to his infatuation.

Violence directed against or his life otherwise being endangered I think would allow him to react to that situaiton before continue with the suggested action. I don't think a situation occuring after the initial suggestion would automatically break the spell, but as already said the spell doesn't prevent him from reacting either.

However, this is just my opinion and the text of the spell isn't completely clear. However, lets look at two spells for the sake of comparison. Hold Person and Suggestion are both 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spells.

Hold Person has a duration of rounds per level and allows a saving throw each round.
Suggestion has a duration of hours per level and does not allow a saving throw except initial (though an unreasonable suggestion causes the fail to spell).

Allowing suggestion to completely prevent a creature from acting in response to stimuli seems to close to what Hold Person does. It doesn't matter if the person can play a piano if he can't do anything else, and is effectively paralyzed at that point. So, in my opinion Suggestion can't come close to a situation that would effectively be like Hold Person because hold person has a much shorter duration and gives an extra saving throw each round to reduce how effective the spell is (and even then it's great!). Suggestion on the otherhand reduces its effectiveness and balances itself by allowing the creature to maintain more control over itself.


I like you interpretation of the spell, and the comparison with hold person really helps.
Thanks a lot for your response! It helped plenty!
Unfortunately for my player arrives a bit late :P But will serve for the better future.


First of all, casting "suggestion" for creature B to "play piano" would be complete after even a couple of notes, since he has "played piano".
You could instead suggest "Play the Lay of the Exalted Dead" and the character would be compelled to play the entire song before the spell wears off.

I would argue that this removes the creature from a combat, but doesn't make it helpless or unable to defend itself in any way. It's also kind of a nifty use of the spell, which I tend to reward. I'm pretty sick of "run away" or "throw me your weapon" suggestions.

If directly attacked, our piano-player would consider NOT defending himself "obviously harmful" and the spell would break.
I feel like this is made more obvious by the actual (compulsion) descriptor, which states outright:

CRB wrote:
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Of course, Suggestion is still a fairly powerful spell even when used offensively. Even something as simple as "keep your eyes closed" can cause blindness for a whole combat, and I've seen "handcuff yourself" used before as well. It's all about making it SOUND reasonable.


Okay, what if Player B is merrily playing away when the entire floor of the room vanishes, dumping him and said piano into a 1000' pit? Player B has featherfall prepared. Does he grip the piano as it plummets for a round (or beyond)? Is he prevented from casting Featherfall since the piano would plummet at a much faster rate than him? IS he not allowed to do anything but play the falling piano until it hits?
(I'm gonna say RAW, he has to stay with the piano... which seems ludicrous. Even dominate (which is more explicit control) gives you a save to snap out of a suicidal situation.)


Rakshaka wrote:

Okay, what if Player B is merrily playing away when the entire floor of the room vanishes, dumping him and said piano into a 1000' pit? Player B has featherfall prepared. Does he grip the piano as it plummets for a round (or beyond)? Is he prevented from casting Featherfall since the piano would plummet at a much faster rate than him? IS he not allowed to do anything but play the falling piano until it hits?

(I'm gonna say RAW, he has to stay with the piano... which seems ludicrous. Even dominate (which is more explicit control) gives you a save to snap out of a suicidal situation.)

Absolutely not! He casts feather fall. Assuming the piano survives somehow, he will resume playing it (if he hasn't finished) once both are safely at the bottom of the pit.


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You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

The bolded section is the key. If the target is not in any danger and you Suggest that he play the piano for the next hour that is reasonable. You never stated that he was not able to defend himself or that he could not leave if it became dangerous to remain. So if either of those conditions comes up he is free to act. If on the other hand you worded your Suggestion play the piano for the next hour ignoring all danger to yourself, and don’t stop for anything that would be unreasonable and fail.


GM Enaris wrote:

If directly attacked, our piano-player would consider NOT defending himself "obviously harmful" and the spell would break.

I feel like this is made more obvious by the actual (compulsion) descriptor, which states outright:
CRB wrote:
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Read it again. It does not say anything about granting a new saving throw or about breaking a spell already landed.

Check out Dominate Person which states: "Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."
Clearly, survival overrides 5th level magic, so it should override 3rd level magic like suggestion.

Dominate Person states: "Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out."
This is clearly a condition for spell breaking. Suggestion has no text like this, so cannot be broken in this way.

/cevah

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