Would an atheist witch work?


Advice


I am designing a character that is an athiest (or dystheist if you prefer) who is kind of like Rahadoum in her thinking, that mortals should serve themselves not so called "gods" (especially because she's meant to be a sort of guide for a mythic campaign where she's helping the PCs become mythic like she is... and she's ABLE to grant spells (she has the mythic powers) she just doesn't because she rejects the idea that she's a god, although at the same time she doesn't see where she isn't the same as those who do call themselves gods, since she CAN be worshipped and grant spells). Thing is, I want her to be a witch but now I'm thinking... What would her patron (mechanically, her patron is fate from Reign of Winter) could she have then? She wouldn't want to be beholden to a god or even a god-like being to get her powers...

Dark Archive

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Any patron still works, really. Either A) because a witch gains her powers from some outside source, whether she knows it or not or B) she gains her power from her mythic origin.

If you go with B problem solved. If you go with A, then you can choose to be ignorant that the Devil/Cthulhu/Bob gives you powers OR you can be aware of this and take advantage of the relationship. Stupid god/elder thing thinks it is in control, when I am secretly plotting against it! Bwahahaha!


Ah, her mythic origin can actually be her 'patron' source? I didn't think of that, that would be perfect for her concept, actually. As I said, with how I gave her the mythic powers that lets her serve as a god, yet she chooses not to is part of why she thinks that the gods are nothing special. She sees herself as just as much a "god" as them, and thinks that all mortals should serve themselves... to basically create a mythic universe where everyone is equal to the so-called "gods"


Even if it couldn't, super-powerful plot-relevant NPCs are allowed to bend or break the rules from time to time.

And if a player really really wants to do something similar, there is always the Warlock Option where you have a "patron" but you are either stealing from or enslaving them and wielding their power. This also means they hate you and want revenge, which makes for all KINDS of fun chaos.

Also, look up the Athar from planescape. Good faction, fun times.


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Witch patrons are not something you worship or beseech for power like clerics. Patrons are more like teachers. They give simply give you the knowledge to use as you will. This is why the are int based arcane casters. They learn things from their patron, but the patron is not "granting" the power.

Atheist witches are go!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

She herself is part and parcel of what the Rahadoumi reject. Her followers would be hunted down and either driven away from the country or stopped by any means neccessary.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
I am designing a character that is an athiest (or dystheist if you prefer) who is kind of like Rahadoum in her thinking, that mortals should serve themselves not so called "gods" (especially because she's meant to be a sort of guide for a mythic campaign where she's helping the PCs become mythic like she is... and she's ABLE to grant spells (she has the mythic powers) she just doesn't because she rejects the idea that she's a god, although at the same time she doesn't see where she isn't the same as those who do call themselves gods, since she CAN be worshipped and grant spells). Thing is, I want her to be a witch but now I'm thinking... What would her patron (mechanically, her patron is fate from Reign of Winter) could she have then? She wouldn't want to be beholden to a god or even a god-like being to get her powers...

By the fact that you have a patron, you're a supplicant who's in denial. The nature, the very theme of witchcraft is power obtained by a pact with a supernatural being.

By becoming a granter of divine spells no matter what you're reason, you've become in two ways the very thing the despised by the code of Rahadoum. Your reasons, your intent, are irrelevant.


Well, I never said she would be welcome in Rahadoum, in fact I understand she explicitly would not simply because whether she's willing to or not (she's not, you can worship her all you want, she's not granting you spells even though she technically can.) Just that I wanted to make her for concept as close to a "god" as it was possible with a mythic character so as to fuel her idea that "They are no more a god than I am" because she can do everything they can do.

As to Rahadoum rejecting mythic characters, where does it say that? Forget for a minute that she had the "Divine Source" mythic powers? You think they'd still hate her?

boring7 wrote:


Also, look up the Athar from planescape. Good faction, fun times.

Oooh, I like them! Yeah, that is kind of how she thinks, even as a witch but also where she gets her mythic abilities too, and why she is like "Help me, but don't worship me and no I will not grant you spells. I'm not a god."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

Well, I never said she would be welcome in Rahadoum, in fact I understand she explicitly would not simply because whether she's willing to or not (she's not, you can worship her all you want, she's not granting you spells even though she technically can.) Just that I wanted to make her for concept as close to a "god" as it was possible with a mythic character so as to fuel her idea that "They are no more a god than I am" because she can do everything they can do.

As to Rahadoum rejecting mythic characters, where does it say that? Forget for a minute that she had the "Divine Source" mythic powers? You think they'd still hate her?

They'd have rejected her as a mortal witch because she's deriving her powers from a supernatural patron. Being a witch is pretty much the same as being a cleric in their eyes.

I didn't say anything about mythic characters in general, because you can build a mythic character that doesn't cross Rahadoumi sensibilities, this one however crosses them at least twice.

Sovereign Court

One option for non-divine themed patrons might be something from the inner planes. The Elemental and Shadow planes, for example, don't really feature much in the way of divine entities (there's the elemental lords, but they're not relatively small players), but are a big source of power to tap into. Elemental, Shadow, and Water patrons would work here.

Grand Lodge

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
I am designing a character that is an athiest (or dystheist if you prefer) who is kind of like Rahadoum in her thinking, that mortals should serve themselves not so called "gods" (especially because she's meant to be a sort of guide for a mythic campaign where she's helping the PCs become mythic like she is... and she's ABLE to grant spells (she has the mythic powers) she just doesn't because she rejects the idea that she's a god, although at the same time she doesn't see where she isn't the same as those who do call themselves gods, since she CAN be worshipped and grant spells). Thing is, I want her to be a witch but now I'm thinking... What would her patron (mechanically, her patron is fate from Reign of Winter) could she have then? She wouldn't want to be beholden to a god or even a god-like being to get her powers...

I actually ran a similar kind of witch in a friend's homebrew setting wherein the gods had been kicked out of the celestial planes and were very real, and very present. She made a deal with the Asura to destroy/banish them so her "patron" was a very powerful Asura rana and her familiar was a Tripasura disguised as a cantankerous gnome.

The nice thing about patrons is they're vague enough that you can fluff it up however you like. The 'patron' can simply be an embodiment of some naturalistic force that serves as more of a mentor or a guide than a master.


Of course. The whole 'patron' thing is just flavor text, so you don't even need one, and even if you did, I don't see anything that means you have to kiss up to it, or that it would even be considered a 'god'.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:

By the fact that you have a patron, you're a supplicant who's in denial. The nature, the very theme of witchcraft is power obtained by a pact with a supernatural being.

By becoming a granter of divine spells no matter what you're reason, you've become in two ways the very thing the despised by the code of Rahadoum. Your reasons, your intent, are irrelevant.

That is your take on Rahadoum. I do not know that it is the official canon story, unless maybe someone can bring us some more evidence ;-)

AFAIK, Witches are quite OK in Rahadoum (at least as much as anyone trusts a Witch that is). After all, they do not need to worship any being to get there powers (not even their patron).

IIRC non-worshipping Druids are not persecuted in Rahadoum either. I believe the hatred goes very specifically to those who worship Gods (or some such creatures), whether they derive divine powers from it or not.


I'm pretty sure witches (and non-devout oracles even!) are fine in Rahadoum. The only thing they have to worry about is someone going "you just healed someone! You MUST be a cleric!"

Flavor-wise, I've always gone with witches being picked by their patrons, rather than the other way around. Similar with oracles - they're drafted, not volunteers.

Now, your witch actually being a semi-divinity who grants spells does mean the homeland would violently reject her and anyone who asked the witch-saint for blessings.


Witches frequently do not know what their patron is. There's no requirement that it be a god, demigod, or anything like one.


Well, yeah she's not from Rahadoum or anything, hell she's not even from Golarion. I just mentioned Rahadoum in the sense that she kind of has that same idea of mortals should do for themselves, not rely on so-called gods, especially when it's totally possible to become such beings themselves.


Divine and arcane are game terms. Other than the fact that some clerics use holy symbols how do you tell if a person is casting a divine spell? As a player I can see cleric written on Bob’s character sheet, but my character cannot. Also how do you tell who is really a god? Razmir has about as much divine power as a turnip, but still claims to be a god. He has actually managed to pull off the fooling everyone. Considering that the other gods have not denounced him he may have even fooled them. He even has arcane casters pretending to be his priests which complicate the matter even further.

I had a friend who created a religion that denied not only gods, but magic itself. It claimed that the supernatural was not real and magic was just trickery and deception. Strangely enough the religion actually had clerics who cast spells, but they denied they were casting spells. They could only cast spells that spells that revealed tricks that revealed or protected against tricks. This was under 2nd edition AD&D and the campaign did not require memorization of spells. Pretty much all spell casters were spontaneous, before there was there were spontaneous casters. The founder of the religion was the great philosopher AtheI so the Atheists were a pain in rear.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Divine and arcane are game terms. Other than the fact that some clerics use holy symbols how do you tell if a person is casting a divine spell? As a player I can see cleric written on Bob’s character sheet, but my character cannot. Also how do you tell who is really a god? Razmir has about as much divine power as a turnip, but still claims to be a god. He has actually managed to pull off the fooling everyone. Considering that the other gods have not denounced him he may have even fooled them. He even has arcane casters pretending to be his priests which complicate the matter even further.

I had a friend who created a religion that denied not only gods, but magic itself. It claimed that the supernatural was not real and magic was just trickery and deception. Strangely enough the religion actually had clerics who cast spells, but they denied they were casting spells. They could only cast spells that spells that revealed tricks that revealed or protected against tricks. This was under 2nd edition AD&D and the campaign did not require memorization of spells. Pretty much all spell casters were spontaneous, before there was there were spontaneous casters. The founder of the religion was the great philosopher AtheI so the Atheists were a pain in rear.

Pretty sure characters know the difference between arcane and divine, at least in theory. Divine comes from divine sources. The reason Razmir's priests are able to fool people is because they have feats and class abilities that allow them to do so. So, if like a witch is casting cure light wounds you know it's arcane cause of the way she casts it. A divine caster is the same way, you can tell it's divine by the casting methods. The Razmir priests fake it though.

As for him fooling the gods, no I doubt that. The gods just don't actively go "ATTENTION RAZMIR IS A CHARLATAN HE IS NOT A GOD" cause he's going to be dead soon, they don't much care. If anything, he weeds out those of weak faith. Plus, at least as I understand it not everyone believes he's a god, especially outside of Razmiran.

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