Sexism, Feminism, Gaming and PFO


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Goblinworks Executive Founder

KarlBob wrote:
And now we're beginning to see the direction words creep in (leftist, right wing). It's a really quick slide from those words to the ones where -tard is a suffix after somebody's ideology, so I'm out. Have fun, all.

It's a little hard to talk about the responsibility of "men" for the flaws of the gaming industry by using sociological studies, without talking about politics.

Goblin Squad Member

Sweet jesus this thread went down the toilet quickly.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

This thread is now kitten pictures.

Goblin Squad Member

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I acknowledge the voices who are warning us about getting flamey and cognitive bias. Remember the core of the OP was that the entire subject is underrepresented so I am less quick to drop this subject than SAD talking circles.

Let me thank Paizo for hosting this thread as one more voice to growing the awareness that something is going on, and hopefully foster a curiosity to discover more about it.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Xeen wrote:
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Xeen wrote:
Most of those games are targeted at men, because most gamers are men.
And THAT is an assumption based PURELY on sexism.
Maybe you are in a different generation then I am, but most gamers I have ever seen in any game type. Whether it was SWTOR, Eve, TT, or anything else are men.

That's, at least in part, a self-fulfilling prophecy. The stats that matter are how many people are interested in gaming as kids that are no longer interested as adults in the games that you are seeing.

I have several female acquaintances, including my wife, who have thousands of hours of online gaming. Mostly in games where they do not have to interact with anyone they haven't invited to interact with them. They face no threats there, because they simply don't play in places that are occupied by people they don't know. My wife played tabletop for two decades, but was driven away by one regular attendee who spent as much time arguing as playing. Not arguing with her, not directly doing anything "to her," but constantly starting large, long, loud disagreements with the DM.

If your primary interest is PvP, then you are likely to encounter fewer females, because a large fraction of the ones over 20 have already been driven out of those play styles by the people that are being complained about.

I've had lots of disagreements with people about how the game should progress, but the only ones that have ever caused me to consider walking away from PFO have been the aggressive PvPers. Not because they want PvP (I've never been tempted to leave over a disagreement with Decius or Nihimon, who are both looking forward to PvP, I think) but because of their aggressiveness and tendency to blow over anyone that disagrees with them.

If the circle you are in has pushed away all the people who don't enjoy aggressive arguments, of course you'd be surprised to learn that almost half of current gamers are women, and that if you could pull back every person who's ever been interested in online gaming, there would be more women than men.

Edit: A case in point, just found on an escapistmagazine thread:

mechalynx wrote:

Well, I've seen my mom click away on Solitaire and Bejeweled. I can safely say that she is no gamer.

I say, if you never threw a controller into the wall or smashed your mouse, you are no gamer, just like messing around with fingerpaints in my youth does not make me a painter.

I think that says a lot about my point.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
can you really say that women just aren't into video games?

I'm playing a lot with women, and my sister is a player, but I don't know one who don't always choose sexy, feminine armors.

And by sexy and feminine, I obviously don't mean Tera sexy and bikini. People just have a tendency in game to look like they would in real life. And until now (because there is some change now), most males wanted to look attractive, and an attractive male was a stronger looking character, with muscles showed off. So, heavy armour. But a female aesthetic wasn't until now associated with muscle mass. So, armours have a tendency to look more sexy.

Which doesn't mean that the females like to be in bikini armour, obviously. Just like real life, where a girl who wants to sexy, doesn't just go in the streets in underwear.

And for the lol : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnIJ-ljctk

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
And now we're beginning to see the direction words creep in (leftist, right wing). It's a really quick slide from those words to the ones where -tard is a suffix after somebody's ideology, so I'm out. Have fun, all.
It's a little hard to talk about the responsibility of "men" for the flaws of the gaming industry by using sociological studies, without talking about politics.

Dang it, I'm terrible at actually leaving.

Audoucet, my primary point was that quoting studies at each other wouldn't accomplish anything, because that only works when you agree to use a standard set of definitions first, and we didn't do that. When one person quotes a study using one definition to a person who's using a different definition, it just doesn't work.

The only people I care to hold responsible for anything are the ones sending rape, individual murder and mass murder threats. They're not helping any side at all, because both sides will be tainted by association with them.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
This thread is now kitten pictures.

I agree entirely.

Dark Archive

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:

You want data? The Entertainment Software Association has spreadsheet nerds do that every year. Here is the info for 2014

Edit: Karl beat me by five minutes mentioning it, but I was getting the link! :0)

Granted this particular group has seen a 10% rise in female players in the last five or six years (38% TO 48%) which goes to say the 2005 WoW study might have been fairly accurate for that game at that time and also that it's wildly unrepresentative of anything happening now.

The entire point of labeling it a chicken and egg situation in gaming is to say that if 90% of games produced have no thought at all to appealing to women so female population is heavily underrepresented in gaming, can you really say that women just aren't into video games?

Spoiler Alert: No dude, you can't bro.

I will see your study and raise you another: http://www.casualnews.com/the-demographics-of-social-games-surprise-or-not/

Granted this date is 3 years old, but I think it strains credulity that the COD demographics shifted dramatically in the intervening time.

But here is another thought experiment: "Was there a major AAA title that had a female protagonist". The answer is actually: Yes, at least 3 in fact. The Mass Effect series has always presented a binary gender option for Commander Shepard through it's entire run. And while the choice of FemShep vs. MaleShep doesn't map directly to female gamer to male gamer (after all, I am male and I always played ad FemShep because, well, she was awesome) it's a pretty good estimate. According to BioWare, the number of people who picked FemShep over MaleShep was 20% (Link: http://kotaku.com/5822908/how-many-people-play-as-femshep-and-how-many-crea te-their-own-hero)

Frankly, both of these show there is a split market in play. Are there women who play core, AAA titles? Absolutely! Do they make up 50% of the market? not likely.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

KarlBob wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
And now we're beginning to see the direction words creep in (leftist, right wing). It's a really quick slide from those words to the ones where -tard is a suffix after somebody's ideology, so I'm out. Have fun, all.
It's a little hard to talk about the responsibility of "men" for the flaws of the gaming industry by using sociological studies, without talking about politics.

Dang it, I'm terrible at actually leaving.

Audoucet, my primary point was that quoting studies at each other wouldn't accomplish anything, because that only works when you agree to use a standard set of definitions first, and we didn't do that. When one person quotes a study using one definition to a person who's using a different definition, it just doesn't work.

The only people I care to blame for anything are the ones sending rape, individual murder and mass murder threats. They're not helping any side at all.

These people just aren't normal human beings.

Dark Archive

Audoucet wrote:
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
That 9-year-old study is the paper equivalent of the 3% of people with a college degree that say climate change isn't a thing.

Sociology, isn't a thing. It's a 40 years old scam engineered to promote leftist ideas like "women are as strong as men, it's just cultural" or "multiculturalism is great".

And by the way, I remember the time in the late 90s when only 3% of people said that climate change was a thing.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or deliberately unhelpful.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Locking this one. We have quite a few threads that discuss topics similar to this one on paizo.com. I don't think we need one that's quickly spiraling into flamewar territory.

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