If this is for a home game, not PFS, I'd suggest using homebrew stuff.
Base TWF Rogue Build
Human Rogue 10
Starting Stats (20 Point Buy):
STR - 11
DEX - 17 (+2 from Human)
CON - 14
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 12
Stats at 10th
STR - 11
DEX - 23 (+2 levels, +4 Belt)
CON - 14 (possibly +2 Belt)
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 12 (+3 on CHA checks from Circlet)
It's also possible to go STR 10, INT 13, and CHA 14. The extra +1 might be nice in CHA for Bluff and UMD. The extra skill point is also nice too, though. Boosting WIS obviously helps will, so you could drop INT to 13 and raise WIS to 12.
FCB: 1/6 Rogue Talent, though +1 HP is not a bad idea either, if you plan on trying to mix it up a bit more.
AC: 24, 18, 18 with +5 from Offensive Defense
Saves: F +7, R +15, W +8 (with a reroll for mind-affecting effects)
Traits:
River Rat - +1 Damage with Daggers
Indomitable Faith - +1 Will Save
(If you plan on boosting Will later, you could also go with something like Dirty Fighter for +1 Damage when Flanking)
Feats:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Combat Expertise (B-Human)
3. Improved Feint
5. Shadow Strike
7. Iron Will
9. Two-Weapon Feint
Rogue Talents:
2. Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
4. Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Dagger)
6. Offensive Defense
6. Assault Leader (B - FCB)
8. Combat Trick (Greater Feint)
10. Hard Minded (Slippery Mind would also be good)
Skills: 110 total points
Much of this depends upon your play style and group. The big ones for this build are (all with max ranks):
Acrobatics: +24
Bluff: +17 (and consider Honeyed Words if you want the opportunity to roll for this twice 1/day/5 Rogue levels)
Disable Device: +26
Escape Artist: +19
Perception: +13
Stealth: +19
Use Magic Device: +17
40 skill points to divvy up as you see fit.
Attacks:
+13/+8 +1 Agile Dagger (1d4+8 + 5d6 sneak attack), +13 +1 Agile Dagger (1d4+5 + 5d6 sneak attack)
or
+15/+10 +1 Agile Dagger (1d4+8 + 5d6 sneak attack)
Primary Gear (62,000 WBL): MWK Thieves Tools (100), 2x +1 Agile Daggers (16,604), +2 Mithral Chain Shirt (5,100), Circlet of Persuasion (4,500), Belt of DEX +4 (16,000) (can add CON +2 for 6,000 to increase FORT by 1 and HP by 10), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Boots of Elven Kind (2,500), assorted wands that would best help your party (Aid, Vanish, Haste, etc.). I think there might be ~4k for consumables and whatnot with two +1 Agile Daggers, ~10k with only one being Agile.
****************
Some notes on other possibilities: First, you could Knifemaster to increase sneak attack dice to d8s, it takes your average damage from sneak attack from 17.5 to 22.5 but you'd lose trap sense and trap finding. You could put your FCB into HP for another 10, though you'd lose one Rogue Talent. Last night I took the Minor Magic and Major Magic (Vanish) Rogue talents at 6 so I could pick up Arcane Strike for a little bit of extra damage +2 per hit at 10th). You could forgo Agile on your second dagger for now (since you're only out 3 damage) and use the extra 6,000 for other things like increasing your Cloak to +3 or wands or adding CON+2 to your belt or whatever.
Likely at 11, I'd suggest something like Improved Iron Will for the extra Will reroll, but you can also consider ITWF (I wouldn't ever go for more than that, though). At 12, I'd suggest something like Slippery Mind if you want another situational boost to Will saves or Hunter's Surprise (1/day add sneak attack to all attacks to one adjacent enemy through your next turn, whether flanking/flat-footed or not).
Like I said, this is a pretty basic build. It can pretty easily be tweaked to personalize it to whatever you want to do. On CR 10 average monsters, it's hitting primary attacks 50% of the time before any other magical or situational bonuses. +17 Bluff is probably about 70% successful on average CR 10 humanoids, 50% nonhumanoids.
Fortitude is low. Will is also not great, but you're getting rerolls and soon could be more. HP aren't great, but again you can customize with FCB or Toughness if you want to do more front line fighting. +17 UMD means you're nearly auto-succeeding on Wand checks (90%) with good chances of success on scrolls.
Multiclassing possibility tangent:
Anyway, just some ideas to consider. Like I said, it's basic and there are probably some better ways to optimize than what I've presented here. But it's a fairly versatile character that can contribute in most battles. Again, you'll struggle against Big Bads, no doubt. But that's where your skills and other roles kick in (especially if you've got a Wizard or Sorc who can craft Wands or will share them with you). If you really want frequent and consistent front line damage dealing, as has been mentioned a bunch of times, Slayer, Ranger, TWF Fighter will be a better bet. But you can be really useful with a character like this, particularly depending on party makeup and how you choose to distribute your skills (e.g., lots of knowledge if there's no Bard; Diplomacy, Linguistics, and maybe Polyglot if you want to be the Face and have loads of languages).
*shrug*
I also thought about going Lore Warden to pick up Combat Expertise for free.
The only problem with dropping INT is that Improved Feint, Greater Feint, and Two-Weapon Feint all are listed as having INT 13 as a prerequisite.
No, it never is.
A martial literally needs a PhD in Ass-Kicking if he wants to do anything besides whack people with a stick.
No, it never is.
A martial literally needs a PhD in Ass-Kicking if he wants to do anything besides whack people with a stick.
Yup. And it's kind of an annoying feat tax, too. Disarm builds, trip builds, etc. are pretty much never going to make use of Combat Expertise, except to get to the feats they need for the build. Completely different than going for a Sunder or Bull Rush build where Power Attack is still going to be used quite regularly.
Underground Chemist Rogue, with a few Alchemist levels, probably Vivisectionist, and two weapon fight with Splash Weapons.
You will be able to Quickdraw them.
Is the Underground Chemist able to draw alchemical items with Quick Draw thanks to his Chemical Weapons ability? Cause Quick Draw says "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat" and i'm not so sure that the statement "an underground chemist is able to retrieve an alchemical item as if drawing a weapon" is enough to overcome it.
But if possible i find it a really good idea for a build.
Concernig the build creation we are allowed to use only the matiarl from Paizo PRD and a 20 point-buy sistem, but all the build posted can be rearranged in term of point buy with no problem, so i'll concentrate on the ideas :)
THe build posted by Flawed is peculiar. I never thougt of using the shield as a second weapon. Seems viable and versatile, i will look deep into it!
As i said earlier i like a lot the Monk/Rogue build posted by Rynjin, even in its variant form without monk level, maybe yet pairing it with the Bandit Archetypes for taking advantage of the Ambush ability (to start Dirty Trick or Trip in the surprise Round, so that opponents CMD won't benefit from DEX).
What do you think about something like:
Rake/Bandit Human Rogue Lvl 8:
STR: 10
DEX; 20 (15 Base, +1 4th Level, +2 Belt)
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 14 (13 Base, +1 8th level)
CHA: 10
HP: 55
AC: 26 (5 Dex, 3 Mit. Buckler +2, 6 Mit. Chain Shirt +2, 1 Ring of Protection, 1 Amulet of Natural Armor)
ST: 6,13,6 (Cloack of Resistance +2)
Init: +9
Favored Class Bonus: Skills for the first 4 level, and then +1/6 Rogue Talent (so at level 10 we get 2 Advanced talents)
Melee: Rapier +2 -> +14/+9 - 1d6 +2 // 5d6 +2 if SA
Trip CMB: 6 (Bab) +5 (Dex) +2 (Weapon) +1 (W. Focus) +2 (Gauntlets) +2 (Improved Trip) = +18
Feats:
1: Improved Initative
1 Bonus: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Feint
5: Improved Trip
7: Combat Reflexes
Talents:
2: Finesse Rogue
4: Weapon Training - Rapier
6: Offensive Defense
8: Combat Trick - Greater Feint
Other Gear:
Boots of Elvenkind
Circlet of Persuasion
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip)
Skills (some):
Acrobatic +21 (8 Ranks, 5 Dex, 3 Class Skill, 5 Boots)
Bluff +16 (8 Ranks, 3 Circlet, 3 Class Skill, 2 Rake)
Diplomacy +16 (8 Ranks, 3 Circlet, 3 Class Skill, 2 Rake)
Intimidate +14 (8 Ranks, 3 Circlet, 3 Class Skill)
Perception +11 (8 Ranks, 3 Class Skill)
Stealth +16 (8 Ranks, 5 Dex, 3 Class Skill)
S.O.Hand +16 (8 Ranks, 5 Dex, 3 Class Skill)
UMD +16 (8 Ranks, 3 Circlet, 3 Class Skill)
Feinting and Tripping we should be allowed to make an Sneak Attack of Opportunity when the target stand up with also a free intimidate thanks to the Rake ability.
Obviously we don't have to Trip always, because Flanking and Feinting could also be a decent way of dealing with most enemies. Trip, Intimidate and later Crippling Strike will allow to debuff while still doing some damage.
Don't know if this build could work especially because of the weak saves (Iron Will, Grat Fortitude and Hard Minded will help a bit later).
Again thanks for the big help you're giving me.
a few rogue builds of my own (while not TWF users) that seem fairly well-rounded:
'Iconic' Rogue
Focused Study Human swashbuckler Rogue 17 / Horizon Walker 3
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler
stats
str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 13 (3), cha 14 (5)
traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance)
4 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic)
6 - Combat Trick (Arcane Strike), FCB: Weapon Training (scimitar)
11 - Fast Stealth
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist, FCB: Improved Evasion
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - ???
* - available to take advanced talents
feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (stealth)
3 - Endurance
5 - Steadfast Personality
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Skill Focus (UMD)
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Dervish
15 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 1)
16 - Skill Focus (perception)
17 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9)
19 - Dampen Presence
flanks with himself (admittedly at 13th level, but better late than never), hides in plain sight (in light/dark as well as vs blindsight/sense), dex-focused (dex-to-damage online at level 2), and has a decent will save. retains trapfinding and a pseudo-uncanny dodge via traits.
- - - - -
Sneaky McStab
stats
str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)
traits - trap finder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
talents
2 - weapon training (dagger)
4 - minor magic (detect magic)
6 - underhanded, fast stealth
8 - ???
10 - ???
12 - ???, ???
14 - ???
16 - ???
18 - ???, ???
20 - ???
feats
1 - weapon finesse, skill focus (stealth)
3 - steadfast personality
5 - arcane strike
7 - hellcat stealth
8 - skill focus (sleight of hand)
9 - lunge
11 - ???
13 - ???
15 - ???
16 - skill focus (UMD)
17 - ???
19 - ???
20 - ???
similar to the above but without the dip into HW. use a spring-loaded wrist sheath and the bandit AT's ability to get fairly easy max damage d8 sneak attacks off in the surprise round (moreso if our GM allows move+standard to allow full attacks)--how you go from there is your business. unfortunately requires an agile-enchanted dagger to get dex-to-damage.
Also, while a kukri would certainly do better i'm unsure how to get proficiency in it without spending a feat or dipping (though a dip in say, swashbuckler, would open up a slew of options). the trait for starknife proficiency (instead of the defensive strategist trait) could work well also.
.
MISC. ADVICE:
-the 'heartseeker' weapon enchantment is very helpful for bypassing concealment against living targets.
-never, EVER take an attack penalty of any kind for any reason, period. your attack bonus is a precious and non-refundable commodity that you are already hard-pressed to increase.
A few rogue builds of my own (while not TWF users) that seem fairly well-rounded.
The first build is really an interesting one. I didn't know of the existance of the Dimensional Dervish feat (and its prerequisites) but surely it's a really cool way to build a character. It's a bit feat intensive but seems it will bring a lot of fun at the table.
Going for it at low level seems sadly a bit difficult since until 13th the build potential doesen't fully shows up. And the fact that Dervish Dance is out of the PRD is problematic.
But still i like the build :)
Thanks also for the advices. I've almost decided to avoid the TWF-Route due to its "to hit" penalties.
the first build getting DD is mostly for always-on flanking (and thus sneak attack) at/after level 13. before then it's still a decent combatant if you're careful, though you're stuck using the usual methods to get your SA off (such as flanking, flat footed, etc.)
another route for easier SA-ing is by obtaining your own flanking buddy--either from a dip into shadowdancer for the scaling shadow minion, or the (nature soul+animal ally+*optional* boon companion) feats for a full-advancement animal companion (wolf is good for the trip bonus). the latter also lets you take teamwork feats together such as outflank, precise strike, and so on. grab the menacing enchant on your weapon and enjoy!
you could also just go ninja/scout for invisibility at level 2 and greater invisibility at level 10 and avoid the issue altogether (barring enemies that can see through invisibility), and say "screw the haters". the trap finder (people of the sands) and defensive strategist (torag, inner sea gods) traits nets you trapfinding and a pseudo-uncanny dodge, letting you still fill the trapmonkey role.
Ninja is a solid class, i admit it, especially for the Vanishing Trick. The issue with it is that it's a bit peculiar in term of characterization, not fitting very well my idea of fantasy-world character.
About the flanking buddy i think the barbarian in our group can be a solid choice. In absence i can also count on the summoned monster of the wizard, so i should be able to flank 8 times out of 10. At least i hope so.
Just a question. Flanking bonus, apply to CMB using the weapon (such as disarm, trip, sunder ...)
Thanks again
Yup. If it applies to an attack roll, chances are it applies to a trip, disarm, or sunder roll (because those are attack rolls).
Also, all this theorycrafting got me to thinking that a Slayer focusing on feinting and vital striking with a Greatsword might something of an interesting build. Not really relevant here, I'm just thinking outloud ... uh, by typing things ... on the internet.
Shut up. It makes sense to me.
Yup. If it applies to an attack roll, chances are it applies to a trip, disarm, or sunder roll (because those are attack rolls).
Thanks. This is great.
Also, all this theorycrafting got me to thinking that a Slayer focusing on feinting and vital striking with a Greatsword might something of an interesting build. Not really relevant here, I'm just thinking outloud ... uh, by typing things ... on the internet.
Shut up. It makes sense to me.
Slaye are something Rogue should have been from the start, so i think it's still relevant at least for future readers :)
What do you think about something like:
Rake/Bandit Human Rogue Lvl 8:
STR: 10
DEX; 20 (15 Base, +1 4th Level, +2 Belt)
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 14 (13 Base, +1 8th level)
CHA: 10HP: 55
AC: 26 (5 Dex, 3 Mit. Buckler +2, 6 Mit. Chain Shirt +2, 1 Ring of Protection, 1 Amulet of Natural Armor)
ST: 6,13,6 (Cloack of Resistance +2)
Init: +9Favored Class Bonus: Skills for the first 4 level, and then +1/6 Rogue Talent (so at level 10 we get 2 Advanced talents)
Melee: Rapier +2 -> +14/+9 - 1d6 +2 // 5d6 +2 if SA
Trip CMB: 6 (Bab) +5 (Dex) +2 (Weapon) +1 (W. Focus) +2 (Gauntlets) +2 (Improved Trip) = +18Feats:
1: Improved Initative
1 Bonus: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Feint
5:...
Nice, i like the build, seems fun and quite solid.
Some advices.
Bandit Archetype is strong but without a reliable way to act in the surprise round i'm not sure you'll find more benefit from it rather than retaining Uncanny Dodge, but this need some try maybe.
For a Trip build you can also look at Disourientin Maneuver feat, since Trip will became harder as you advance. Fury's fall would be grat too, but it is not part of the material allowed (as the use of a Wayfinder with a Dusty Rose Prism). Maybe talk with your DM.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Acrobatics 5 ranks.
Benefit: If you successfully use Acrobatics to tumble through an opponent’s space, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls against that opponent until the start of your next turn. If you choose to make a trip attempt against that opponent, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on your combat maneuver check. This bonus on trip also lasts until the start of your next turn.
Last tip is to consider also disarm other tha trip. Not every enemy has a weapon, but with Weapon Snatcher you can disarm quite well every enemy you face. Using both of them uses too many feats, so i'll suggest you to choose also depending the setting and common enemies you'll face.
Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.
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Well, now there is this FAQ, and the Underground Chemist is dead in the water.
I find one Rogue archetype, I would have considered actually playing, and it gets crushed.
The point of dipping sohei was to get devoted guardian so you can always act in the surprise round not to get flurry. Devoted guardian + Ambush is a great combo if you like to get the drop on people or don't like being ambushed. It also adds all martial weapons should you want more options there along with a single bonus feat that could be mounted skirmisher should you choose. It has merits for builds beyond flurrying in armor.
I like a lot the concepts Sohei/Bandit. It gives just a -1 penalty to Bab (wich hurts) but grants great versatility.
Act in the surprise round is always a bonus. Then you can choose if flurry (SA aids increasing attack damage) or going with just one weapon avoiding penalty. And i'm starting to like the idea of doing a combat maneuver in the surprise round.
Do you think that a Trip build is too hard to pull off because of the increasing of the monster's CMD?
For a Trip build you can also look at Disourientin Maneuver feat, since Trip will became harder as you advance. Fury's fall would be grat too, but it is not part of the material allowed (as the use of a Wayfinder with a Dusty Rose Prism). Maybe talk with your DM.
Disourienting Maneuver is nice but the Dodge prerequisite kinda hurts. I'm alredy feat starved. As you say before Fury's Fall and the Wayfinder could really help but being outside the PRD are not really an option.
Thanks a lot for the help!
Here's a build example. Just the plain build WITHOUT ITEMS.
Human Sohei Monk 1 / Rake Bandit Rogue 11
Single-wielding a Rapier and using a Shield
STR: 8 (Base)
DEX: 20 (15 Base + 1 4th, 8th, 12th level)
CON: 14 (Base)
INT: 14 (Base)
WIS: 14 (Base)
CHA: 10 (Base)
Init: 9
HP: 85 (With 4HP thanks to Favored Class Bonus)
AC: 15
ST: 9/14/9
BAB: 8/3
CMB: 7
CMD: 22
Skills Points per Level: (7 Monk, 11 Rogue)
Feats:
Monk-Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk-Bonus: Combat Reflexes
1st Level: Improved Initative
Human Bonus: Combat Expertise
3rd Level: Improved Feint
5th Level: Improved Trip
7: Iron Will
9: Greater Feint
11: Great Fortitude
Rogue Talents:
2: Weapon Finesse
4: Weapon Focus
6: Offensive Defense
8: Feat: Greater Trip
10: Crippling Strike
10 Bonus Fav.Class: Opportunist
With the right Items you would be able to take advantage of your ability to act in the surprise round Tripping your enemy and dealing SA damage as AOO in the surprise round and using Greater Feint in the following rounds.
When dealing SA you can make free Intimidate Check, to demoralize foes, and also Cripple them reducing their STR by 2 with each attack.
It seems it fulfill your goal and is also quite fun.
Human Sohei Monk 1 / Rake Bandit Rogue 11:Single-wielding a Rapier and using a Shield
STR: 8 (Base)
DEX: 20 (15 Base + 1 4th, 8th, 12th level)
CON: 14 (Base)
INT: 14 (Base)
WIS: 14 (Base)
CHA: 10 (Base)Init: 9
HP: 85 (With 4HP thanks to Favored Class Bonus)
AC: 15
ST: 9/14/9BAB: 8/3
CMB: 7
CMD: 22Skills Points per Level: (7 Monk, 11 Rogue)
Feats:
Monk-Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk-Bonus: Combat Reflexes
1st Level: Improved Initative
Human Bonus: Combat Expertise
3rd Level: Improved Feint
5th Level: Improved Trip
7: Iron Will
9: Greater Feint
11: Great FortitudeRogue Talents:
2: Weapon Finesse
4: Weapon Focus
6: Offensive Defense
8: Feat: Greater Trip
10: Crippling Strike
10 Bonus Fav.Class: Opportunist
You're right, i like it. With the standard items it seem an effective build, and also not so fragile. I think i'll give a try to it!
What about being a Goblin instead of Human to take advantage of his favourite class bonus?
Add a +1 bonus on the rogue's sneak attack damage rolls during the surprise round or before the target has acted in combat.
They also have very nice racial modifiers and Darkvision!
Thanks a lot!
What about being a Goblin instead of Human to take advantage of his favourite class bonus?
Add a +1 bonus on the rogue's sneak attack damage rolls during the surprise round or before the target has acted in combat.They also have very nice racial modifiers and Darkvision!
Goblin sure has nice modifiers and darkvision is always a bonus, but they bring a big issue ... they are small creatures. This is a problem for you if you want to focus on Trip, since you can trip creatures one size larger than you. So even with an enlarge person you wouldn't be able to trip the majority of enemies you'll face.
Beside also the Favored Class Bonus seems to me inferior of the one given by human. Two advanced talents are gold. Some more damage in a surprise round is ... meh.
Rather than Sohei Monk, consider taking the first level in a Divination Foresight Wizard.
You retain the ability to act in the Surprise Round and gain access to Cantrips and first level spell (True Strike cames to mind). Beside you also gain the Wizard spell list so you can make most of UMD without the check.
The Prescience power of the Foresight school could be used to know in advance if your Trip attemp could work.
Doing so you lose the Bonus Feat of the Monk and a +2 to Fort Saves.
While the second hurts a bit, i think it's a nice deal.
D.D.
Rather than Sohei Monk, consider taking the first level in a Divination Foresight Wizard.
You retain the ability to act in the Surprise Round and gain access to Cantrips and first level spell (True Strike cames to mind). Beside you also gain the Wizard spell list so you can make most of UMD without the check.
The Prescience power of the Foresight school could be used to know in advance if your Trip attemp could work.
Doing so you lose the Bonus Feat of the Monk and a +2 to Fort Saves.
While the second hurts a bit, i think it's a nice deal.
D.D.
Thanks for the interesting suggestion. It seems to me that Wizard/Rogue fit better my concept than Monk/Rogue, and seems also more powerful thanks to the UMD bonus!