|
I know pfs has to be organized play, but is their any rules as to what I can or cannot do as a GM other than I have to run the scenario as is? Like if a player forgets to look for traps and steps on the trap, am I allowed to roll perception for the player in an attempt to make him/her spot the trap and not step on it.
Am I allowed to give advice as a DM while the players are playing or before they play? Etc.
|
You're not going to find rules like you're looking for in a written format. Trying to do that would cause confusion because there are so many variables and exceptions involved. Use your best judgment, err on the side of the players, and try to have fun. Everyone is different. New players need more hand-holding and advice, while experienced players may want more challenge.
For example, if a new player has a pre-gen rogue and the fighter finds a chest he wants to open, I might look at the rogue's player and ask "Is there anything you'd like to do before he opens it?" I am less generous with established players. This weekend I had a player with a 6th level character meticulously search every door and object for traps through 4 encounters. Finally she forgot to search a locked door and I gleefully sprung a stinking cloud trap on her character. Everyone realized that was the first time she hadn't stated she was searching for traps and had a laugh. I could have gone the other way and said, "I'm going to let you make a Perception check for the trap since your character has an established pattern. Your character's memory is better than your own." It helped that it wasn't a lethal trap...
Another example; if a player is discussing which character they are going to play in a scenario and I know that there's something useful on the Chronicle for one of their available PCs, I'll make a recommendation. I don't say "There's a boon for a griffin animal companion on the Chronicle, so you should play your cavalier!". It's OK to be subtle.
|
|
I know pfs has to be organized play, but is their any rules as to what I can or cannot do as a GM other than I have to run the scenario as is?
there are a lot of guidelines , but few rules.
Like if a player forgets to look for traps and steps on the trap, am I allowed to roll perception for the player in an attempt to make him/her spot the trap and not step on it.
That might be infringing on trapspotting a little, on the other hand you can ask if the party is looking for traps as they move (I consider that a move action, so the party just goes at half speed) and not need to have them announce it every 30 seconds (which just gets annoying).
I generally assume that pathfinders are quasi trained semi professional murderho.. gentlemen explorers who by virtue of living this long, have picked up a fair degree of paranoia after being ambushed, attacked by a doppelganger disguised as their friends, ambushed, attacked by a treasure chest, had their soul sucked out of them by the "barmaid" succubus, and then ambushed. I let the party set their standard operating procudures for a search and then they just go.
Am I allowed to give advice as a DM while the players are playing or before they play? Etc.
Yes! especially with newbies or if you need to move things along. You probably shouldn't say that "you will need cold weather gear to survive" but you might what to hint that you are walking through a frozen wasteland and picking up a jacket might be a good idea.
|
|
okay another thing, lets says I run it at a con or at a public place. Lets assume I run it for young people. Am I allowed to let them have hard copies of the module books, ie. lend them books, so they can make decisions? Yes I know that is metagaming, but nothing that says, I have to run it with my players not metagaming and other stuff like that.
|
That is pretty well frowned upon.
The intent of the game is for the GM to communicate what the characters experience and let the players decide how to react based on that information.
They may misunderstand things. They may make off the wall choices that the scenario didn't expect. And the GM is supposed to evaluate how those choices play out.
Giving them the answers expected in the adventure robs them of that spontaneity in favor of having them play their part in the script.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No. That's taking it too far. There's an unspoken contract between you and the players when you all sit down to play. Part of that is they have to trust that you are being fair and not just making stuff up. If they don't trust you, they need to find a different kind of game to play. If you don't trust them, give them more credit.
It's your job as the Game Master to use your imagination to describe the environment, the grotesque monster, the chaotic thrill of battle. Instead of saying to the player "I'm sorry, an attack roll of 12 misses the goblin warrior. You needed a 15 to hit his armor class.", you could say "The nimble goblin ducks under your whistling greatsword, not even needing to raise his shield to avoid your attack."
|
|
That is pretty well frowned upon.
but not illegal?
As well as roll counter 20's to try to make the monsters roll 1?. I have some late middle school/early high school players wanting to do pathfinder. Problem is the modules I want to do are mostly hard stuff, so I'm trying to find ways to ensure their characters survive.edit: I didn't just quote that one part, this was written before you edited.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suggest that you don't use the organized play system. Run it how you feel comfortable, just don't present it as Pathfinder Society sanctioned. If these kids don't plan on playing with other organized players at PFS sanctioned gamedays or conventions, then there's no need to make them adhere to the PFS rules. Put on the kid gloves and let 'em have fun. When they are ready for the next level of difficulty, introduce them to PFS.
|
|
but not illegal?
As well as roll counter 20's to try to make the monsters roll 1?
It may not be specifically written in the rules, but it is certainly against the spirit. Keep in mind that players are supposed to tell GMs if they have previous knowledge of the scenario, either from GMing it before or playing it before. It is then up to the GM whether he allows the player to participate, and if they ruin the scenario with their prior knowledge the GM can remove them from the table. I think that should guide your decision about letting the players read the scenario as you run it for them.
Countering NPC die rolls with player rolls sounds like a house rule and would be illegal.
I suggest that you don't use the organized play system.
I concur. You have no need to use the reporting system for these kids, and can just use the PFS scenarios as regular adventures without the organized play restrictions. If you want to get organized play credit, I recommend running an adventure path in campaign mode where you can use whatever house rules you like.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am going to chime in and agree with Steven and Doug up there for one major reason...
If you give the new players that huge of an advantage, it's not a role-playing game any more, it's simply a choose-your-own adventure book. Now, I am not saying this isn't a potentially fun and interesting way to introduce players to the game, but it is a TERRIBLE way to introduce them to Pathfinder Society as an organized play campaign.
The players will get used to the easy button of knowing what is coming up and being able to plan, and when they go somewhere else with their character and play at a table where that information isn't available, their experience is going to be COMPLETELY different from that of everyone else who has played. That is very likely to create some extreme confusion when they are asked to go through that door and not know what is on the other side.
A more interesting solution might be this:
Start them out with the Beginner Box scenarios. That will get them comfortable with making characters, leveling up, using skills, combat, and all that goodness. That's a full session of gaming right there.
After that, pick up the First Steps series and the We Be Goblins series. Then, run them as a home game (not reported through PFS).
The First Steps series is a good introductory set of scenarios, and you might be able to get away with giving very broad and generous tips and hints throughout as the newbies learn to play. Also, two of the three are no longer used in play, so they will provide three solid sessions of play without infringing enormously on the players ability to then go play PFS out in the worls.
The We Be Goblins series can also be played as non-PFS-reported events. Those are enormous fun, generally non-deadly, and can give the players a taste of the truly hilarious and bizarre things that can take place in a role-playing game.
Once you have run through those six sessions, your young new players should have a pretty solid grasp of the game, and you can move on to full-fledged PFS play, with a reasonable grasp of the rules for low-level play, no foreknowledge of the scenarios needed to keep them alive, and probably a brand-new addiction to feed.
|
That is pretty well frowned upon.but not illegal?
As well as roll counter 20's to try to make the monsters roll 1?. I have some late middle school/early high school players wanting to do pathfinder. Problem is the modules I want to do are mostly hard stuff, so I'm trying to find ways to ensure their characters survive.
While I agree with the above that PFSs might not be the best for you, don't sell your middle schoolers short:
I've had 5th graders at my tables at PFS with the best character at a level 11 table when everyone else in the group is adults. And he did everything for his character after level 2 himself. (he has now started GMing)I think if you start with a few season 0 scenarios so they get a feeling on how to play, that may help. You say that the scenarios you want to run are hard. Which ones are you looking at? Maybe we as a community can help you develop a schedule which will allow your players to learn the ropes and advance their characters so they can survive the challenge.
|
|
There are the "Kids Track" quests designed for this. Players reading the adventure beforehand is illegal *if* they act on any of that information in-game - asking kids to not do that would be pretty hard IMO.
If you are worried about PC death turning them off, rill yoru dice behind a screen. Let them get hit, but if the damage roll would kill them dead you can announce a lower damage. This sort of dice fudging is legal in this sort of situation, although still you shouldn't do it too much because it is enabling behaviour - if they feel you'll never let them die they won't learn to play by the real rules.
|
|
That is pretty well frowned upon.but not illegal?
As well as roll counter 20's to try to make the monsters roll 1?. I have some late middle school/early high school players wanting to do pathfinder. Problem is the modules I want to do are mostly hard stuff, so I'm trying to find ways to ensure their characters survive.edit: I didn't just quote that one part, this was written before you edited.
DoubleGold, why don't you describe some of the concerns you have and some of the outcomes you are trying to achieve? We might have other suggestions on how to get the results you are after. Others have already made some really good suggestions, and I know the people on this board are really capable and willing to help if they understand what you're trying to do.
For example, what are you trying to achieve by giving them copies of the module? What benefit do you think it will provide them?
One other thing you should consider: Do you want your players to be able to take their characters to other PFS games in your area? If so, then you'll need to play by PFS rules. If not (e.g., if you want them all to stay at the same level), then you might be better off avoiding PFS rules to keep the characters in a single game.
Heck, wasn't there a story about a 7 year old who earned her 2nd GM star recently?
I'm pretty sure 12-14 year olds can handle playing PFS just fine.
She got her first star at 9, and her second one at 10.
Her younger sister started playing at 6, and was well received at tables with adults who didn't know her.
I don't think that age should be a big issue with Pathfinder/PFS. It is maturity that matters.
DoubleGold, I too would like to here what your concerns are with having young players.
|
|
my concern about young players is sometimes scearios have very mature themes. As a DM I would be concerned if they were playing a table with such themes without having a guardian OK what stuff is happeneing.
Because some have gruesome thingsthat add great flavor and I do not want to take from the older players the theme set up by the author because one player may not be ready for it.
|
|
mostly I just had questions, it is not just young players but new ones as well or semi-new ones that have played only for months. Most players are young, some are just new and others are in their 20s but still new, semi-new or have not played. Who I DM for, depends upon who can make the sessions, I'm still working out players availability. I think I only have one veteran in the group and he is about late college. I didn't know if DMs were allowed to give whatever hints they wanted to in PFS. Other players value their characters deeply and are heart broken upon their characters dying, especially PFS.
My one and only concern was survival, who would be heartbroken upon death? I'm using young players as an example, but my concern is those who don't want to die.
Like for example I could ask at the table, how much do you value your character on a scale from 1 to 3. 1 being you don't if it dies and 3 being alot. Now lets assume I wanted to run one of those modules that can be bought as books instead of only the modules that are only pdf files. Some of those modules are killer dungeons. Lets assume it was crypt of the everflame, or emerald sphire, or one of those other dungeons, I don't know them all off the top of my head.
I would at the table, pass notes along to the people who said 3 as long as they kept it to themselves Psst. Traps in spaces, d, e, i, x, y, z. In rooms 88 and 111. Monster info... Here is the info, but keep it to yourself and be honoroble about it. People who said 2 will get vaguer hints.
I would tell the people with inside knowledge not to reveal those traps until last. Ie. let the people who don't have inside knowledge go ahead of you and let them decide if they want to search for traps or not, then have those with inside knowledge go second and roll their perceptions, take 10 or take 20. I would also say to them, don't solve the puzzles, let those without knowledge solve it first, then jump in when they are stuck. I would also say, you can say in character, be alert, be cautious, etc, but don't say, I know there is a trap ahead when the character hasn't seen it yet. and don't say "I go around the trap." when the character hasn't made the perception to see it yet.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
|
PFS is definitely not for you, then. Run a non-PFS homegame until you learn the aspects of the game.
That is rather harsh.
I would say PFS is not for your players. Dying is part of the game. Scenarios try to find a certain balance where you are challenged but dont die. But there are so many factors in PFS that can tip that balance either way...
With a home campaign you are free to make that balance yourself, so the change of coming close to death but not actually dying is much easier to achieve.
|
|
Yeah, it sounds like you want to ease people into RPGs in general, and PFS doesn't really allow for that because for Organized Play, everyone needs to play by the same rules. But there is no difference between the game you describe and playing PFS, except that those characters would not be legal to take to another PFS event like a convention.
ONe thing I try to do when possible is to make any PC death dramatic and memorable, either giving them some extra time for a memorable quote or descriptive actions which make it seem like they saved the rest of the group. If someone dies, but they have this "I jumped on the grenade to save my friends" type story, it can be a badge of honor rather than just a lost character.
|
|
Like for example I could ask at the table, how much do you value your character on a scale from 1 to 3. 1 being you don't if it dies and 3 being alot. Now lets assume I wanted to run one of those modules that can be bought as books instead of only the modules that are only pdf files. Some of those modules are killer dungeons. Lets assume it was crypt of the everflame, or emerald sphire, or one of those other dungeons, I don't know them all off the top of my head.
I would at the table, pass notes along to the people who said 3 as long as they kept it to themselves Psst. Traps in spaces, d, e, i, x, y, z. In rooms 88 and 111. Monster info... Here is the info, but keep it to yourself and be honoroble about it. People who said 2 will get vaguer hints.
I would tell the people with inside knowledge not to reveal those traps until last. Ie. let the people who don't have inside knowledge go ahead of you and let them decide if they want to search for traps or not, then have those with inside knowledge go second and roll their perceptions, take 10 or take 20.
A couple of thoughts:
First, if character death is an issue, make sure you check the reviews and GM discussions for each module or scenario. You can usually get an idea of how deadly it's going to be, then avoid the ones that have too high a death rate. At low levels, you can usually avoid killing characters. At higher levels, characters should have enough prestige or money for a raise dead, so the death isn't really that traumatic. (We have characters in our area who claim they have a death "punch card"--one more death and they get a free sundae!)
Second, having some of the players have advanced knowledge when others don't will be really, really difficult to manage. It's hard not to use metagame knowledge, even accidently, and if they don't use the metagame knowledge, how are they going to keep their character alive?
Third, for dealing with traps and such, don't force your players to ask if they can make perception rolls every 15 feet. Ask them for their standard procedures for "when we come to a door", "when we come to a corner", etc., and then just assume they are always doing that.
I usually collect all the characters' perception bonuses and assume the characters are taking 10 whenever they are walking down the hall of the dungeon, etc. If anyone's take 10 on perception is high enough to beat the DC, I just tell the players what they see. If no one has a high enough bonus, I'll often roll it for them to keep the element of surprise.
|
Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
|
PFS is definitely not for you, then. Run a non-PFS homegame until you learn the aspects of the game.That is rather harsh.
I would say PFS is not for your players. Dying is part of the game. Scenarios try to find a certain balance where you are challenged but dont die. But there are so many factors in PFS that can tip that balance either way...
With a home campaign you are free to make that balance yourself, so the change of coming close to death but not actually dying is much easier to achieve.
Didn't mean to sound harsh. You put it into better words for me, Woran.
Do a home game without the constraints of organized play, then, after reading PFS Guide & knowing the flow of organized play, take it from there.
|
|
I've played PFS before, just never ran it, so I do understand PFS. I have also read the guide, and nothing about it saying how you can DM it. Like a player is about to walk into a trap, shake head no, so player can rethink action or ignore warning.
about the meta knowledge, I'm pretty sure the issue of people who DMed it have some good meta knowledge. I'm sure those people know how to play the game without ruining it for others. If they would use meta knowledge I'm sure they would only ruin it for themselves, not for others and they would do it in such a way that other players couldn't tell they had meta knowledge. In other words, if someone DMed it before, they aren't going to walk into a trap they know is there, even if their perception fails to see it, they will find some way to avoid the trap or just take 20. Yes they would stay in character, but they aren't going to walk into that trap and they aren't going to say I know that trap is there until the character sees it.
Edit: the one thing about PFS death that bothers me is this. You can only get credit once per player, not character.
So if you have 13 characters of yours die, there is a chance you will never get pfs credit for a level 1 character ever again, because you have played all of the pfs senarios that involve level 1. Or you can never make it past level 5, because you've play all the senarios that involve level 5, you are out of games to get credit, because you've played all of them and all of your characters that would've advanced die.
okay, so lets assume you didn't use up all the level 1 adventures. make a 14th character, but somewhere down the road that character dies. Point I'm trying to make is if enough of your characters die, you won't be able to advance forward because you use up all of the scenarios that give credit at said level.
In other words, if someone DMed it before, they aren't going to walk into a trap they know is there, even if their perception fails to see it, they will find some way to avoid the trap or just take 20. Yes they would stay in character, but they aren't going to walk into that trap and they aren't going to say I know that trap is there until the character sees it.
You would be wrong there. I GMed or prepped scenarios and then played them. Even if as a player, I know exactly where the trap is, but if I think that my PC wouldn't (didn't pass the take 10 perception that I use most of the time) then I would walk into it - and have.
And when meeting NPCs, I allow my sense motive to determine if I believe them or not, not my player knowledge of who they are (or go along with the majority of the group).
Edit: the one thing about PFS death that bothers me is this. You can only get credit once per player, not character.
So if you have 13 characters of yours die, there is a chance you will never get pfs credit for a level 1 character ever again, because you have played all of the pfs senarios that involve level 1. Or you can never make it past level 5, because you've play all the senarios that involve level 5, you are out of games to get credit, because you've played all of them and all of your characters that would've advanced die.
okay, so lets assume you didn't use up all the level 1 adventures. make a 14th character, but somewhere down the road that character dies. Point I'm trying to make is if enough of your characters die, you won't be able to advance forward because you use up all of the scenarios that give credit at said level.
Well, if you have 14 characters die on you, you may want to look at why they are dying so often and so fast.
Others have mentioned that some scenarios are replayable for credit (level 1 or level 1-2 scenarios). This will get your PC to 2nd level.
And your level 5 characters should be able to afford a raise dead, either by prestige or gold.
And unless you are running marathon PFS sessions, it will take a long time to use up all of the available scenarios.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Well, lets see, there are ~60 1-5 or 1-7 scenarios. So you are going to have to play for at least a year with 20 characters dieing before you get locked in level 2. (Assuming you play once a week)
You have another 17 level 3-7.
another 30 from 5+
another 38 from 7+
You are going to have many, many years of gaming before you have killed enough characters that you cannot advance. Then on top of that, you have sanctioned APs, etc.
And most scenarios just aren't that lethal. One character death in ten games is more the norm when you are trying to kill PCs.
coddling the players is *not* a good idea. For one thing, they will eventually play at a con, and they will not be ready for it.
if you *do* want to modify rules *and* want to have people get credit for playing, have you considered playing a sanctioned adventure path in campaign mode? (Basically, use any house rules you want, as long as the story gets told more or less the way it is in the book, the players get chronicle sheets they can then apply to a PFS character.)
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
The big problem about prealerting the PCs, is that you are not shielding them against death, you are shielding them against ever being wrong.
If you really are worried about them dieing, run an adventure path (so they can get credit and you can still have house rules) and just make a house rule: You do not start bleeding out till you hit negative con, you do not die until you reach -Con times 5, and if the whole party goes unconscious the bad guys will ransom you back to the nearest pathfinder lodge for 2000 gp each. Stat Drain renders you unconsious if you go to 0, dead if you go to -stat.
Nobody is going to die under those rules, but they can still screw up, and if you explain that this is a house rule, and that you are being kind, then they can see that had this been a normal game then they would have died.