Spellbreaker, custom base class.


Homebrew and House Rules

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Gulian wrote:
Well to be fair, the Fighter, the Barbarian and the Monk have no abilities that aid allies either, yet they aren't prohibited from playing good alignments.

Well, first I made it clear I wasn't seriously suggesting the class be barred to good alignments, although I think its non-AMA flavor is such that on some level it would make sense.

The difference with the Fighter and Barbarian is that they are the best melee combatants in the game (Monk devotees might argue the Monk is, though I doubt it), and therefore protect other party members in that manner. The SB gives some degree of that combat prowess up and thus offensive abilities against whatever threatens the party, to defend himself and no one else from spellcasters, if the AMA is not part of the class.

The paladin gives some of it up, too...to lay on hands and grant mercies to the party and the like.

So without the AMA, if I want my character to survive, why do I want a SB in the class rather than a Fighter or Barbarian, someone to give up some of the combat prowess for self-protection?

I already granted that the full save bonus, on Will and Fort saves, should be granted within the field, mostly because I didn't realize it began as low as it did without that. I'm highly skeptical of any SR being granted in the field, because it certainly can't be that full bonus or it's mega-overpowered, but if it's much less (such as half the SB's SR) it could have very little effect on similarly leveled creatures.

However, I'm willing to entertain the possibility, as you think the AMA should have a lesser ability at a lower level that "leads up to it," so I'd be willing to consider a "minor AMA" granting some SR that starts as "kind of okay" around Level 6 (so it's still too high to be worth it to dip) and then scales in a way that by Level 11 it's pretty weak (but still more SR than at Level 6), but then the full AMA, with big save bonuses, comes in.

The minor AMA might give SR equal to 6 + 1/2 SB level + the SB's Wis modifier. So with Wis 14, at level 6, it would give SR 11. It would be a 10 foot circle with no ability to enlarge, exclude, or change shape, but could be created as a move action, maintained as a swift action, and dismissed as a free action. SR 11 is worth something (not a ton, but something) at Level 6. Equally leveled monsters will fail to penetrate it 20% of the time, the same miss chance as partial concealment gives for a melee attack.

By Level 10, it has only increased to 13, so only gives a 10% failure chance to an equal leveled caster, so it's getting weak for its level (unless with SB goes with a very high Wis build, though that's probably not a great idea). But then at Level 11 the full AMA comes in. The weaker version's SR can still be included, though it will hardly matter most of the time-- but then at times you might be fighting a lot of lower level NPC's instead of fewer equal level ones, so on occasion it will still come in handy.

As to the feats, if you think they're overpowered, then suggest lower power versions. If you think they're worthless, then at worst no one will take them. They can't be both.


Quote:
The difference with the Fighter and Barbarian is that they are the best melee combatants in the game (Monk devotees might argue the Monk is, though I doubt it), and therefore protect other party members in that manner. The SB gives some degree of that combat prowess up and thus offensive abilities against whatever threatens the party, to defend himself and no one else from spellcasters, if the AMA is not part of the class.

And the Spellbreaker is shutting down enemy spellcasters, sundering their spells and stealing their buffs. That's exactly the same.

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As for the feats, again, you missed the point I was trying to make.

I'm speaking from a flavor aspect much more than from mechanics.


I'd also add that Fighters aren't all that interesting of a class, and Barbarians not that much better, partially due to their lack of ability to buff others (outside of some archetypes that do allow it).

But even with them, Fighters' bonus feats, and reliance on them, create some strategic decisions as to which to take, and Barbarians' rage is a little multifaceted.

I (and others) are trying to make this a more multifaceted class. when you pointed out the save bonus in the AMA wasn't as high as I thought, I immediately decided it should be raised quite a bit.

The flavor of the class should be that a SB really dislikes magic and wants to protect everyone from it. While this would make the class too hard to play, a SB would theoretically have trouble getting along with full casters. Note: I'm not saying this should be added, as i admit it would make the class too hard to play.

But instead of that, the SB should have to make strategic decisions to protect his allies from magic while allowing allied casters to succeed, so there is some tension between what he does and what casters do. And it should be important to the SB that his allies not be successfully targeted by spells. Fighters may not buff others, but they don't really buff themselves, either. They're just combat experts. SB's buff themselves and not others, without AMA.


The flavor of the class is quite a bit different, if you've read the very first post.

The flavour is a man who strikes out against those who MISUSE magic. They do not neceserrily hate magic, they police it.

HOWEVER. The flavor of the class can be altered and tailored for whatever character you want to make, such as being someone who wishes to protect his party from magic and hates it to the very core. This is what class archetypes are for.

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I get what you're saying. What I'm leading to is that to make the Spellbreaker such a multi-faceted class, you would need to rebuild the class concept from scratch.

As it stands, here are the decisions a Spellbreaker has to make:

Stat array. This is a bit less trivial than you might think, considering deciding to take less INT and more DEX/STR will decrease the Spellbreaker's main abilities at early level. Even a +1 could make a difference here.

Feat choice and combat style. You really don't want to be wielding a two-handed weapon at all. Honestly, I would take a shield and a shortsword. But that's just me. Another good weapon choice would be wielding a reach weapon, but that requires more investment into STR and may potentially gimp the anti-magic abilities.

Spell choice for spellbook in order to maximize Spellhound bonuses. This can mean the difference between a fail and a success to sunder spells at lower levels.

Situational tactics:

Against a single spellcaster, the Spellbreaker has a very standard tactic. BREAK ALL OF HIS SPELLS . However imagine that your party is being sniped by several weaker spellcasters on higher ground? Which spells will you sunder? How do you get in range to identify/sunder/steal them?

Battlefield situation. Several melee mooks and a spellcaster or two at the back. How do you get to the spellcaster in order to break his spells? What if he's the BBEG and is casting a spell that could potentially take out a member or two from the party? Do you rush in through the horde of melee fighters, taking AoO's to the face and try to be in position to break it?

Which is actually a huge factor for this class. POSITIONING. 15 ft is the level 5 range of Spell Sunder. The caster can move 30 ft, then cast a spell. How do you prevent the caster from moving out of your Sunder range? How do you get to the caster past the mooks? Perhaps I could delay my action until the fighter/barbarian softens up the front line for me? How dangerous is the spellcaster? Can I ignore him and focus on making a clear and safe path for myself? What if the mooks flood in and attack my weaker allies? Perhaps I should stay in position to guard them instead?

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The Spellbreaker has another layer of tactical decisions he must consider and make over the Fighter and Barbarian in a wide variety of situations.

The multi-faceted gameplay you are looking for is best described as a talent system. And that requires making a class from scratch.


Well, you didn't like AMA because "too many words," and then DPB (who really added lots of good ideas to it) lessened it down to a short paragraph and you still won't accept it.

While you've been willing to weaken the class in some ways when people have shown it to be overpowered, I sense you aren't interested in any features that aren't your own (outside of others' archetypes), and aren't interested in making a class that helps the character's allies.

I'm ready to say, well okay then, I just won't support the class, will never allow it in any games I GM, and probably won't see it in other games that involve me because it's a Homebrew class and not that many people go looking for them.

At least I helped get its power level down to somewhat in line with others, but I shouldn't dare to try to improve the class to make it more interesting and/or less selfish, because you aren't interested in that. Too bad. It could have been much more interesting than you're willing to allow.


That's your choice.

My opinion of something isn't formed the instant I see it and it progresses as I consider things from varying angles. So at first glance, it seemed totally fine, if a bit cumbersome.

At second glance, the ability seemed sort of out of place with the classic spellbreaker set up. Which, in both flavor and effect, is just a dude with a weapon that breaks spells. There's nothing much beyond that in the class.

If you're interested in altering/adding flavor to your character, you can do so by multiclassing/negotiating with your GM/changing things about it at your table and so on.

If you're interested in altering the class itself, make an archetype. Power level adjustment is fine, because each person sees things from his own perspective and may not see the overpoweredness or underpoweredness of some things.

Finally, what a class is:

It's not a lump of mechanical abilities and stats that cover every single base. Class is, first and foremost, governed by flavor and the image it projects of itself universally.

What archetypes are:

A version of a class that is specialised for a certain direction or concept. OR a version of a class that is channeled into a certain flavor context not previously available in the classic version.

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Anyway! I've said all I wanted on the matter, and I presume you have as well. Thank you for the help you've given so far. If you've ever a mind to make a suggestion or share an opinion you have, feel free to do so.


@Gulian - I took you up on your suggestion of an archetype based on Oly and my AMA and have come up with the Spellvoid. Let me know what y'all think.

The Spellvoid
Seeing the tactical advantages available to their brethren, some Spellbreakers combined the Spell Adept’s and the Spell Defender’s abilities to protect others from the ravaging forces of magic with the Spellslayer’s penchant for surveying any and all confrontations in order to determine the course of action most beneficial to him and detrimental to his enemies. Such men and women have been dubbed Spellvoids for their abilities to manipulate the field of battle by creating areas resistant to magic.

Spellvoid (Su)
At 3rd level, with a swift action, the Spellvoid may project either his Spell Resistance or his bonuses from his Anti-Magic Fortitude ability to all targets in a 10-ft radius burst within close range (i.e. 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). While the Spellvoid is projecting his Spell Resistance or his Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses, he foregoes the benefits of those abilities himself (even if he's within the burst's area). The Spellvoid may deactivate a projected burst as a free action. The Spellvoid may use this ability once per day.

At 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid gains an additional use of this ability per day (6/day at 18th). Additionally at 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid can increase the radius of the burst by 5 feet, to a maximum of a 30-foot radius at level 15.

This ability replaces Spell Steal

Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, when the Spellvoid projects his Spell Resistance or his Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses, he benefits from those abilities as well. The Spellvoid may choose to forego such benefits in order to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude

Spell Blank
At 13th level the Spellvoid can create areas devoid of magic. By expending a daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can cast the spells Anti-Magic Field or Greater Dispel Magic, using his levels of Spellvoid as his caster level. The Spellvoid’s own spell-like or supernatural abilities are unaffected by his castings of Anti-Magic Field or Greater Dispel Magic. By expending an additional use of his Spellvoid ability, he can exlude a number of targets from the effects of his Anti-Magic Field or Greater Dispel Magic equal to 1+Wisdom Modifier or 1+Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability replaces Energy Channel


I don't think this chap needs to lose his bonuses since the amount of times he can use the ability is limited to uses per day! That's a pretty big restriction as is, in my opinion.

A small correction to make it more annoying for everyone:

Those affected by Spellvoid must make will and fortitude saves against any and all spells, even if they are willing to recieve their effects.

This is mostly because willing targets do not make saves against things like healing spells. Now everyone standing in it will have to.

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The truth is, shortly after Oly's outburst, I started tweaking around with the Spellbreaker Adept and added a version of the ability you two made. If you want, I could take that part out for this archetype?

Also, the switch with Energy Channel is pretty... Underwhelming, I think. Although the other -is- an 8th level spell. Not sure.


Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, when the Spellvoid projects his Spell Resistance or his Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses, he benefits from those abilities as well. The Spellvoid may choose to forego such benefits in order to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude

I think I'd like to make the following edit to the above. Edit bolded

Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, when the Spellvoid projects his Spell Resistance or his Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses, he benefits from those abilities as well. The Spellvoid may choose to forego such benefits in order to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). Alternatively, the Spellvoid can expend a daily use of his Spellvoid ability to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

edit: @ Gulian, I didn't see that you had posted when I posted this. I think that's fine and making everyone in the area make the appropriate save to benefit from spells balances it out. While I'm not found of this mechanic, it could mesh well with my suggestion re: beneficial spells in the spellbook, perhaps folks in the area either don't need to make the saves or get a bonus based on 1+Will or 1+Cha mod (minimum of 1).

As for Spell Adept, no need to change anything, I think the two are sufficiently different even if they share some similar abilities

As for Spell Blank, mileage will vary with campaign, but I think it's pretty powerful to be able to walk into 2-3 encounters a day protecting yourself and your buddies from magic and this would pretty much such down any BBEG casters


Btw, regarding Spell Resistance and the Spellbreaker needing to identify a beneficial spell for him to be able to drop his SR, I suggest that if the spell is in the SB's spellbook, he doesn't need to identify the spell for him to be able to drop his SR. So if he has Fox's Cunning in his book and his wizard companion wants to cast it on him, no spell ID is needed. He can drop it as a free action on his turn or as an immediate if it's not his turn and his wizard can cast as normal.

This leads to an interesting choice point for the SB - have some strategically beneficial spells in his book (e.g. Haste, Enlarge Person, the various cure spells, etc.) or crank Spellcraft to make those checks for the beneficial spells (and hope you don't roll a 1) and then fill the book with spells you want to be able to counter with your SR.


I had a thought. What about some sort of cursed archetype? Like a sorcerer bloodline minus the spells? They use their curse to hound spellcasters and such.


UsagiTaicho wrote:
I had a thought. What about some sort of cursed archetype? Like a sorcerer bloodline minus the spells? They use their curse to hound spellcasters and such.

Thats similar kinda to my proposed Spell Blocker with a different fluff. But the archetype fluff could be changed to suit a curse, might suit it better in fact.


Oh cool. That's pretty much what I had in mind.


@Gulian, the more I think about Spellblank, the more I see your point about it being underwhelming, especially compared to the range of spells a SB can cast with Energy Channel.

I'll put some thought into this over the weekend and will likely post an updated version Monday or Tuesday


Roger that.

The reason it's underwhelming is that the classic Spellbreaker can essentially drop a greater dispell or anti-magic field every time the BBEG casts something level 6 or higher and he successfully sunders it.

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Spell Blocker! I'll get down to it today, I promise. Sorry for the delay


So the Spellblocker!

Magic Entanglement:

This seems fine, honestly! I'm not entirely sure on how it scales against a caster's ability to make concentration checks, but I think it works out fine and puts the caster in an uncomfortable position where it never gets easy to make that DC happen.

Concentration checks are: caster level + casting ability mod.

Casting defensively is 15 + double spell level.

Level 1 (18 INT)

D20 + 4 + 1 vs DC 17 (Lvl 1 spell). That's pretty brutal, at 1st level. To rub it in, that DC becomes 18 from ME (Magic Entanglement).

Level 2

D20 + 4 + 2 vs DC 18 (+1 ME).

Level 3

D20 + 4 + 4 (Combat Casting) + 3 vs DC DC 20 (+1 ME, 2nd level spell)

Level 4

D20 + 4 + 4 + 4 vs DC 21 (+2 ME)

Level 5

D20 + 4 + 4 + 5 vs DC 23 (+2 ME, 3rd level spell)

Level 6

D20 + 4 + 4 + 6 vs DC 24 (+3 ME, 3rd level)

Level 7

D20 + 4 + 4 + 2 (Uncanny Concentration) + 7 vs DC 26 (+3 ME, 4th level)

Level 8

D20 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 8 vs DC 31 (+4 ME +4 Disruptive, 4th level)

Level 9

D20 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 9 vs DC 33 ( +4 ME +4 D, 5th level)

Level 10

D20 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 10 vs DC 34 ( +5 ME +4 D, 5th)

Level 11

D20 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 11 vs DC 36 ( +5 ME +4 D, 6th)

etc etc etc

Level 20

D20 + 4 + 7 + 2 + 20 vs DC 47 ( + 10 ME +4 D, 9th)

The ability, now with a more in depth look, is totally fine. It might even be a little weak for the Spellbreaker class because the minimum die roll the caster needs to make fluctuates between 9 and 11ish mostly with the occasional splant into 14.

It certainly places a caster into an uncomfortable position when he wishes to cast his highest level spells and annoys him at lower ones as well. Pretty cool, if you ask me! Especially with a polearm.

And with a +3 to +2 addition to the DC from succesfuly identifications, it puts this ability in a very solid place!

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Disruptive Transfer:

That's too much. I mean. At any given level, being unable to cast anything for 1 round is very beneficial to the enemy. It doesn't get weaker. When you add an extra round to that, that's just being brutal.

It's kind of too much. I'd make it 1 round with the possibility to use several uses of this ability to increase the number of rounds in one action.

Like, say, use 3 uses, spellblocked for 3 rounds instead of doing it over and over for each consecutive round.

That seems fair to me, at least, but it's your call.

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Disruptive Shortcut:

While I get exactly what you're trying to do here, I'm sort of iffy on the flavor of the ability. It feels too magical and a bit too sudden to fit the class.

Perhaps you could, like, do something akin to the ability you replaced?

So say, whenever you sunder a spell you gain the effects of Fast Movement 10ft, possibly scaling up with the level of spell sundered. Maybe like, half level x 10 ft of fast movement, so you can get a solid 45 ft bonus from level 9 spell.

Just throwing ideas around.

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Magic Feedback:

Seems kind of weak of an exchange. Maybe, like, instead of that, whenever you activate spellbane, the target is subject to a Disruptive Transfer effect that doesn't expend a use per day, but lasts only for 1 round regardless?

Or maybe you could make it activate spellbane whenever you resist a spell or any spellcaster fails a concentration check near you. As well being able to make it occur from a succesful Disruptive Transfer.

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Suggestions:

Make this guy's Spell Resistance be unable to be controlled and resist every single spell, be it beneficial or not. Kind of like a curse of having this Disruptive quality to you.

In exchange, allow Spellbane to be activated by reach weapons and any target previously affected by Spellbane increases his Concentration check DC by 2, stacking every time he takes another Spellbane to the face.

Possibly even give this guy the ability to inflict a desired condition on his enemy from spellbane, kind of like the Anti-paladin's Touch of Corruption.

Something like that, maybe! But I think you should definitely expand on this archetypes sort of unwilling side to being resistant to magic, so that his major drawback is that he has a chance of not benefiting from magical effects given to him.


I just thought of another archetype. What about a Blue Mage type thing that focuses on turn a monster's abilities against it?


@ Gulian

Magic Entanglement: I'm glad magic entanglement works out so well o_0... Honestly i had not done the math with that one yet, and was having the same initial worries you were. but floating right around 50% chance of killing a spell, with a chance to jump up to 65%-ish sound perfect.

Disruptive Transfer: (DT from now on) I don't see how this could be over powered while Feedback (MF from now on) can simultaneously be under powered. They are similar in most ways except feedback is reactive and arguably better. DT just shuts down spells, the caster can still run from combat and takes no hit to ac (other than spells lost); while having a seriously limiting use/day mechanic. While MF has no use/day limit, does not require any action, and completely shuts down the caster (assuming failed saves). I could see the turns of no spellcasting being a little too aggressive, but 1 turn for 1 use seems a little weak to me. since the spell steal debuffs enemies and buffs the SB, while DT just debuffs. How about 1/4 SB level. That peaks at 5 turns at lvl 20. the scaling turns of "no casting" reflects the scaling bonus that the base class gets by stealing progressively more powerful spells, the blockers becomes progressively more destructive.

disruptive shortcut I totally understand what you are saying on this ability. it does feel jammed in there and a little out of place. But i didn't want to remove it, since this is really the only non-"beat up casters" thing this archetype has. The base class has spell casting, and spell flux to give it a bit of flexibility and utility. I honestly had not thought about the increased movement speed, which does fit much better as a replacement for spell flux (fluff and flavor wise), but has so much more limit. how about a middle ground, teleport 1/2 spell lvl x10 on sunder. then he can still get himself to otherwise impossible locations (like straight up) especially since positioning is that much more important for this archetype. Honestly i'd be cool with either, so if teleport is really a deal breaker for you, im cool with just movement speed increase (same rules as spellflux for duration)

MF as stated in the DT section, this makes the caster just short of helpless, that in and of itself is a major bonus (stunning critical is a MINIMUM lvl 17 feat). stunning abilities not limited by uses/day are crazy high level abilities, let alone ones that do not require an action. Id probably up the save to 15 + spell level + int. I was trying to avoid damage in this ability, was looking for a non-damaging disable. And picture as a purely mental whiplash.

as for adding DT to spellbane instead, you would effectively be cancelling the spell casters casting ability all together (even with the nerfed DT), since you can safely assume that the blocker will hit at least once per turn.

I like the idea of his SR applying against friendlies, but i think he should have some control over his disruptive effect. What about SR - INT for friendlies? that makes it succeed more often than not, but there is still that chance of failure floating back there (about 25% failure chance at lvl 10, almost 50% failure at lvl 20). The archetype already loses all abilities to buff himself, make it too difficult for others to buff him and it could really start hurting.

Quote:
In exchange, allow Spellbane to be activated by reach weapons and any target previously affected by Spellbane increases his Concentration check DC by 2, stacking every time he takes another Spellbane to the face.

BRILLIANT, it should only stack till the blockers next turn.

Summary (TLDR):

  • DT is just a weaker MF that uses an action and has uses/day, yet is overpowered even though MF is underpowered?
  • changed DT cast-blocking ability to 1/4 SB lvl.
  • changed teleport to proc on a sunder instead of always on. willing to go down to movement speed, but I would prefer not to.
  • added int to DC on MF.
  • Spell blocker SR now works against friendlies at SR-INT.
  • Spellbane now procs with reach weapons, and every spellbane to the face in one turn increases concentration and defensive casting DC by 2.

EDIT: what if DT did a %chance to fail casting instead of shutting it down altogether? 50% fail chance for "1/4 SB-lvl" rounds?


Took a lot of your input into consideration. nerfed DT by making it 50% fail chance instead of getting rid of casting altogether (kept it at "1/2 SB lvl" rounds. Altered SR to not play as nice with friendlies as the base classes SR. Altered Spellbane to work with reach weapons and added the stacking disruption modifier. The level 7 ability now only does movement speed and grants him concealment. increased save on MF, and added DT to the effects.


My bad! With Magic Entanglement, I meant that the ability, due to making a target practically helpless, was a bit overpowered. For some reason, I was thinking about another ability entirely and replying to it.

Things such as stuns or near-helpless disables don't really get weaker at later levels in any form, which is why there's no real need to make them scale in duration! But I think you've figured that out over the weekends already.

As for Disruptive Shortcut, it's not really mechanically broken in any form or manner. Hell, an Oracle of time gets that at-will at about level 7. My only point was that it was thematically awkward for the class, nothing else.

I like the new Disruptive Transfer so much more! A percentile dice to fail the spell is pretty awesome!

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Dpb should be posting sooner or later, so waiting on that as well.

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Re-evaluating the classic Spellbreaker to see if I could safely call this class' developement (sans archetypes) finished!


@Gulian,

I have a quick question about Energy Channel. If the SB decides to use the residual energy of a spell he just resisted/sundered to power one of his own spells, that spell must be in his spellbook; is this correct? I think this is the way it works but it's not explicitly stated so wanted to check


Yes, correct. He can not cast a spell he does not know from Energy Channel.

Which reminds me. I should add in that the spell slot gained from Energy Channe only exists for a number of rounds equal to his CHA mod (Or I could just make it 1d4, seeing as the class is pretty MAD as is. Not sure.)


@Gulian

Thanks for the clarification.

As for how long the energy "sticks around" for use, I prefer ability mod (Cha or Wis to allow different build options) because that can be bumped up with spells/magic items/etc. I suggest making it 1+Cha/Wis mod (minimum of 1).


Then I'd also have to make Spellflux work with CHA/WIS to keep the flavour.

Different builds is nice, but CHA is more thematically appropriate than WIS.

Cha also measures the level of inner force of personality (or magical potential or just about any kind of innate strength) someone posesses, hence it would fit quite well here.

Wis on the other hand seems a bit... well, you get it.

The thing is, I hate dump stats as well. But no one likes to play a class so MAD that it feels as though it's ineffective at whatever it does.

Hence having a third ability score to keep up with is kind of questionable for me, even if you can use magical items to boost it up.

I'll carefuly consider this before giving a solid opinion on the matter.


Ok. FYI, I don't feel strongly about using Cha and Wis. It can be just Cha for the reasons you cite, or just Wis from their studies/philosophy of the need for policing magic (a fairly wise POV in my book). If you go the 1d4 route, that's understandable too. After all, it's a relatively small mechanical choice for a late-mid game class ability.


I agree with using stat. Its nice game play wise, knowing exactly how long you have an option. As for it being MAD, the way i was assuming it would be is use it next turn or lose it, so any duration would be better than that. And there wouldn't really be a need to pump that stat, with the "minimum 1" its technically even dumpable. unless it was 12 or higher might as well dump it.


Heya Gulian,

You've put together an excellent class! Congratulations ... I have attempted such a class in the past and it's always failed, miserably.:P Got a quick question for you; where is the most up-to-date version of the class? Also, is there a Google docs version we can check out on-line?

Cheers
Volf


Volvogg wrote:

Heya Gulian,

You've put together an excellent class! Congratulations ... I have attempted such a class in the past and it's always failed, miserably.:P Got a quick question for you; where is the most up-to-date version of the class? Also, is there a Google docs version we can check out on-line?

Cheers
Volf

latest and greatest from Gulian: Spellbreaker

I don't know from my quick look over, if it is completely up to date; but its probably damn close.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

@Gulian

In your description of Energy Channel you write:

"At 13th level, whenever the Spellbreaker succesfully resists or sunders a spell, he may channel the residual energy of that spell into his own spellcasting, effectively granting him a single spellslot equal to the level of the spell cast. However, he may not receive a spellslot above 6th level. When casting in this way, Spellbreaker’s casting DC is equal to 10 + half the spellbreaker’s level + INT."

What do you mean by casting DC? Do you mean that the Spellbreaker must make a concentration check with the DC being the above? Or perhaps the DC of the spell is what you have above instead of the normal 10+spell's level+Int mod? Clarification will be most appreciated.


At second look on the casting DC, it's actually wrong and broken. Will fix that immediately.

It means the general DC an enemy would have to overcome in case there is a save of some sort involved. It should 10 + spell level + INT though.

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It's not -completely- up to date, but it's behind by no more than one or two small fixes. So that's more or less what the class looks like.

I guess I should make a new thread with the Google doc in the first post.


@Gulian

Thanks for the clarification. I suggest rewording the caster DC portion of Energy Channel to read:

"When casting in this way, the Spellbreaker calculates his caster level using his Spellbreaker levels for purposes of caster level checks (such as overcoming a target's SR). The DC of a spell cast in this way is calculated as normal, using the Spellbreaker's Intelligence modifier (e.g. 10 + spell level + INT mod)"

I added the bit about caster level to be more explicit about the mechanics of the spells cast via Energy Channel


Will put that bit in. Thanks!


I adjusted each of the abilities and fully re-worked the level 13 ability. I provided design notes so folks can understand why I made some decisions and where I'm still on the fence. Constructive criticism is most welcome

The Spellvoid
Seeing the tactical advantages available to their brethren, some Spellbreakers combine the Spell Adept’s and the Spell Defender’s abilities to protect others from the ravaging forces of magic with the Spellslayer’s penchant for surveying any and all confrontations in order to determine the course of action most beneficial to him and detrimental to his enemies. Such men and women have been dubbed Spellvoids for their abilities to manipulate the field of battle by creating areas resistant to magic.

Spellvoid (Su)
At 3rd level, with a swift action, the Spellvoid may project his Spell Resistance and his bonuses from his Anti-Magic Fortitude ability to all targets in a 10-ft radius burst within close range (i.e. 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). The projected benefits have a duration of 1 minute per Spellvoid level. These projected benefits do not stack with the Spellvoid’s own Spell Resistance or Anti-Magic Fortitude should he be in his burst’s affected area. If a spell allows its target a saving throw, those affected by this Spellvoid ability must make the appropriate saving throw, even with beneficial spells (e.g. Cure Moderate Wounds, Haste). The Spellvoid may deactivate a projected burst as a free action. The Spellvoid may use this ability once per day.

At 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid gains an additional use of this ability per day (6/day at 18th). Additionally at 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid can increase the radius of the burst by 5 feet, to a maximum of a 30-foot radius at level 15.

This ability replaces Spell Steal

Design note: Since this is a fairly limited resource and because I incorporated Gulian’s suggestion that folks need to make saves on all spells, including beneficial ones, I decided to allow the Spellvoid to project both his SR and Anti-magic Fortitude bonus. I also added a duration of 1 min/level in order to clarify that these benefits aren’t indefinitely shared once projected.

Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, the Spellvoid may use an immediate action to project his Spell Resistance and Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses.

Moreover, at 11th level, the Spellvoid may choose to exclude a number of targets from being affected by his projected burst or he may choose to exempt a number of affected targets from needing to make saving throws for spells from which they are willing to receive effects. The number of targets the Spellvoid may exclude or exempt is equal to 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). By expending an additional daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can both exclude and exempt targets; excluded targets need not be the same as exempted targets, and vice versa.

This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude

Design note: I’m up in the air about allowing this ability to be activated as an immediate because it might be a tad OP. If I had to choose between immediate action or the exclude/exempt mechanic, I’d choose the exclude/exempt.

Anti-Magic Fuel
By specializing in the countering and suppression of magic, the Spellvoid forgoes the Spellbreaker’s versatility in order to access more powerful anti-magic spells.

This ability functions the same as Energy Channel except (i) the Spellvoid can gain spellslots as high as 9th level, (ii) but he may only fill these spellslots with spells from the Spellvoid’s Anti-Magic Fuel spell list and said spell must be in his spellbook.

At 13th level, a Spellvoid can use 1st through 7th level spells. At 15th level, he can use 8th level spells. At 17th level, he can use 9th level spells.

Moreover, by expending a daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can exclude a number of targets from the effects of any spell he casts (e.g. Anti-Magic Field, Dispel Magic, Mage’s Disjunction, etc.) equal to 1+Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability alters Energy Channel

Design Note: I felt limiting the spells a Spellvoid can actually fuel - to mostly anti-magic and protection spells - justifies being able to fuel up to level 9 spells. As I mention, the Spellvoid gives up a fair amount of versatility in order to fuel spells higher than 6th level. I added the exclusion mechanic for thematic reasons, but I’m not wedded to it…might be OP

Anti-Magic Fuel spell list
1st level spells: Hex Ward; Hide from Undead; Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Remove Fear; Shield of Faith; Stunning Barrier

2nd level spells: Corruption Resistance; Enshroud Thoughts; Ghostbane Dirge; Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Communal; Remove Paralysis; Resist Energy; See Invisibility; Silence; Surmount Affliction

3rd level spells: Banish Seeming; Cast Out; Devolution; Dispel Magic; Eldritch Fever; Invisibility Purge; Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Nondetection; Protection from Energy; Remove Curse; Resist Energy, Communal; Stunning Barrier, Communal

4th level spells: Bestow Curse (Lesser Spellblights only); Break Enchantment; Death Ward; Dimensional Anchor; Dismissal; Freedom of Movement; Protection from Energy, Communal; Spell Immunity; Ward Shield; True Form

5th level spells: Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Disrupting Weapon; Ghostbane Dirge, Mass; Spell Resistance; Spell Immunity, Communal; Undeath Ward; True Seeing

6th level spells: Antimagic Field; Banishment; Dispel Magic, Greater; Globe of Invulnerability; Undeath to Death

7th level spells: Expend; Sequester; Spell Turning

8th level spells: Bestow Curse, Greater (Major Spellblights Only); Dimensional Lock; Mind Blank; Protection from Spells; Spell Immunity, Greater

9th level spells: Freedom; Mage’s Disjunction; Spell Immunity Greater, Communal; Wall of Suppression

Design note: the spells on the Anti-Magic Fuel spell list were chosen mostly because they undo or suppress magic/magical effects; provide protection from magic/magical effects; suppress or kill undead (because they are almost always animated via magic); or generally help the Spellvoid f-up a caster (e.g. Silence, See Invisibility; Bestow Curses (limited to Spellblights), Disrupting Weapon, etc.).

I understand that at 13th-plus level, many of the lower level spells might not get a lot of use during combat, but I wanted to provide the Spellvoid options for when he resists/sunders lower level spells instead of hard-coding into the class a spell list that starts with 4th or 5th level spells (which, IMO, are the spell levels that really start to get useful for in-combat play).


Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I was looking to do something similar to that spell-list, but couldn't wrap my head around it for a long time.

That is a brilliant replacement for Energy Channel!

I like the changes you've done to the archetype. It's impeccable. There's nothing to even criticise here!

-------------------

I'm not specifically sure on the 9th level anti-magic abilities, but thematically it's simply -perfect-. This is going into the doc!

Many thanks and infinite kudos to you dpb, credit will be given.


Thanks Gulian and it was my pleasure.

The GM of my current game thinks that activating Spellvoid as a Swift is OP and thinks it should be a move action. I can see how he thinks it's OP but given its limited uses per day, perhaps that balances it out? Not sure if we should make it a move action and then at level 11 it can be a swift. Do you have any thoughts on this?


I think it's fine either way.

You could indeed make it a move action at that early level, then make it a swift. It won't change anything too drastically at this point.


@Gulian - I think that's what we'll do. I don't know how to edit the post so when you add the archetype to the Google doc, please change

Spellvoid to: "At 3rd level, with a move action..."

and Improved Spellvoid to: "At 11th level, the Spellvoid may use a swift action..."


CHEEPENBULKY wrote:
Volvogg wrote:

Heya Gulian,

You've put together an excellent class! Congratulations ... I have attempted such a class in the past and it's always failed, miserably.:P Got a quick question for you; where is the most up-to-date version of the class? Also, is there a Google docs version we can check out on-line?

Cheers
Volf

latest and greatest from Gulian: Spellbreaker

I don't know from my quick look over, if it is completely up to date; but its probably damn close.

Thanks for the link! I am not sure how I managed to miss that though.:( I am reading over the Spellbreaker and making a few changes to better suit my game. Looking forward to incorporating this class into my world.

Thanks again!

Volf


Do share the changes and your reasoning for them, though!

Is it something of a personal preference, or a mechanical imbalance?


Gulian wrote:

Do share the changes and your reasoning for them, though!

Is it something of a personal preference, or a mechanical imbalance?

The changes that I am making are mostly because of my own personal taste. Although in a couple of instances I removed a few things and tweaked some others as the ability needed a bit of a revision or slight change(s). Please see attached file. It contains the tweaked Spellbreaker class that I will be using for my campaign setting. The link is Dropbox and the file type is a .pdf.

Updated Spellbreaker.

Cheers
Volf


dpb123 wrote:

@Gulian - I think that's what we'll do. I don't know how to edit the post so when you add the archetype to the Google doc, please change

Spellvoid to: "At 3rd level, with a move action..."

and Improved Spellvoid to: "At 11th level, the Spellvoid may use a swift action..."

Hi, I've thought about this some more and at 6 times a day, this power is already pretty limited. So I think we should leave it as a swift and then an immediate at level 11


The fortitude save progression is what I initially went with during creation, but it was ruled to be over the top by the majority. Looks much cleaner the way you have it, though.

I really like the Spellsight. I was generally thinking about a similar ability involving Arcane Sight, but I've been running pretty empty lately. Mind if I go ahead and steal that, along with a few suave wordings you've used?

I'd also like to steal Spell Annihilation as well, if that's alright with you?

---------

I think that's fine dpb! Tell me how the game goes.

If you notice any inconsistencies within the class' performance, do tell. Maybe you'll even have an idea or two to share!


Glad ya like some of my tweaks Gulian! Please feel free to use whatever you like.:) After all ... this is your idea. Just glad you like some of the changes I made.

Cheers
Volf


Alrighty ... I got a bit carried away and revamped a number of things. Please take a look and let me know what you think Gulian. I basically revised a number of the abilities, I also redid the Spell Sunder ability. Now it progresses from being only able to sunder an effect that is ongoing within melee range to being to able to sunder a spell as it's being cast. Similar in effect to counterspelling. Anyhoo, let me know what you think. The only thing thats really bothering me is how many spell sunder attempts should a spellbreaker have per day?

Cheers
Volf

PS Please click on the Dropbox link above ... it has the updated version.


You've made more clear wording in some places to be sure. Will borrow some of it!

As far as Spell Sunder, it already does what you intend it do. If you can successfuly identify a spell, you are free to try and Sunder it as an attack of opportunity.

This means you can indeed Sunder a spell as it is being cast. You merely need to take care and be in range for it to work!

Edit: Switched up some of the wordings for what you wrote and changed Spellhound a little bit.

I checked, and yeah. Spell Sunder was worded badly on my part. It can be used to Sunder spells as they are being cast as long as you are able to identify them.

Edit v2: Incorporated Spellsight into Studied in the Art.


Some questions:

1 - Can the spellbreaker ready an action to use spell sunder as if counterspelling?

2 - Can the spellbreaker simply walk up to an enemy with an ongoing effect and spell sunder it, whenever he wants?

3 - The ability to use AoO to spell sunder is a bit to much. If the spellbreaker focuses on increasing his available number of AoO he could effectively shut down an enemy caster, so long as they are within range. This seems a bit to powerful to me. There needs to be a limit to how many spell sunder attempts can be made (yes I realize that there is a limit to AoO's, although that can be increased easily).

4 - Is the spell sunder ability similar in effect to counterspelling? if so maybe there should be a caveat that the spellbreaker can take certain feats which helps to bolster his spell sundering ability. I think it would be interesting if a spellbreaker could take some the dispelling (ie destructive dispel). He could treat is spellbreaker level as his spellcaster level and spell sunder could be treated as dispel magic, at 10th level it could be treated as greater dispel magic. Just a random thought.

Cheers
Volf


@ Volf

I dont see your worries personally... Casters on most occasions can only cast 1 maybe 2 spells per round. And Sunder has a very limiting range of adjacent, aka reach or ranged weapons can not be used to sunder. So unless all of the casters are standing in a pile of "breaker-bait", the SB is only going to have 1 caster in his sunder range, and likewise will only have 1 maybe 2 opportunities to use an AoO to sunder.

Take that into account and increasing your # of AoO's accomplishes very little.

and your question as to if it works like counterspell. It does work like counter spell as in; if it is used as an AoO it shuts down the spell before it can be fully realized.

edit: realized i was thinking spellbane in my argument, disregard.


The balancing factor of Spell Sunder is the rather high DC the Spellbreaker needs to overcome to succesful sunder a target spell as it is being cast and the fact that it's range is much less than any spell the spellcaster can cast at lower levels.

At higher levels, this evens out, though.

And yes, if the Spellbreaker overcomes the required DC, he can walk up and subder an ongoing effect.

He can also shut down an enemy caster with only one AoO per round, provided he can identify the spell successfully. That is, after all, the entire point of this class.

P.S. An interesting idea with the dispell and feats. I'll think on that!


Ah ... alright that's a good point! The spell sundering is happening with his weapon. Not sure why but I was thinking he could do this at range.

So, after a bout of insomnia and a healthy dose of obsessiveness, I reworked your class. I used your idea as the chassis though. This has diverged from your take on things, I am simply sharing this as its my take on your awesome class/idea.

For review, here is my take on the Spellbreaker.

Cheers
Volf


hey Gulian, what changes do you feel would be necessary for the archetype I penned up to make it onto the google doc?

and a two cents on the tweaked arcane sight you added. I would say have only detect magic at lvl 1. Then at lvl 5 the spellbreaker gains arcane sight without use limits (the spell is permanency-able after all) and greater arcane sight at int/day uses. Maybe even hold off on GAS till lvl 10, since it isn't cast-able by anyone till lvl 13.

having all three at lvl 1 is a little much. also idk if its just me, but granting arcane sight and greater arcane sight at the same time, and with same uses per day seems a little off.

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