Let's say a Swashbuckler with Kip Up moves through some monster's threatened square and triggers an AoO. The monster opts to use a trip.
Since the rules for Free Actions (and thus, swift actions) allow you to use it as PART of another action, can you use Kip Up during your Move Action to move so that you can stand up again and continue your Move Action to move unimpeded? Essentially negating the trip, since you don't lose any actions other than your Swift and you don't provoke AoOs.
You can double move in a round so you would need to use a 2nd action to continue the movement, but it would not be unimpeded since the trip interrupted your first attempt to move. Being able to stand up fast does not negate the fact that you were tripped(prone) which stop normal movement.
Probably this. It's up to your GM though.
You can double move in a round so you would need to use a 2nd action to continue the movement, but it would not be unimpeded since the trip interrupted your first attempt to move. Being able to stand up fast does not negate the fact that you were tripped(prone) which stop normal movement.
You are correct that you cannot move without spending another action, but in the case of Kip Up you are spending a swift action. Nothing in being tripped says that it ends your movement action. Normally using another action ends the first action, but free/swift actions are an exception to that rule. So, there is no reason that you cannot Kip Up after being tripped and continue moving the remainder of your move speed all within the same move action.
This is a good question. There doesn't seem to be any rule that being tripped ends your move action, so it seems doable to kip-up as a swift action and continue moving.
I don't know where I stand on this, but I can offer an analogous question.
Should a caster be allowed to cast a quickened or otherwise swift action spell in the middle of a move?
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Let's say a Swashbuckler with Kip Up moves through some monster's threatened square and triggers an AoO. The monster opts to use a trip.
Since the rules for Free Actions (and thus, swift actions) allow you to use it as PART of another action, can you use Kip Up during your Move Action to move so that you can stand up again and continue your Move Action to move unimpeded? Essentially negating the trip, since you don't lose any actions other than your Swift and you don't provoke AoOs.
"Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."
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"Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity."
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"You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action."
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"Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
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If you can take a free-action mid-movement, then you may take a swift action; It seems.
Though I have no direct answer, I have narrowed it down a smidgen. The way I perceive it though; You can take a Swift anytime you can take a Free, and it seems you can take a Free action while taking another action normally - Meaning in the middle of an action, start, or end.
Edited: for Bolding+Free Action+Arrows+Opinion
Absolutely. He can cast Feather Fall if he walks over a pit trap.
I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.
Absolutely. He can cast Feather Fall if he walks over a pit trap.Feaherfall is an IMMEDIATE action not a swift action.
I would not allow a caster to do a run 3x movement and at some time in hte middle of that run cast a quikcened spell. He could do it at the begining or the ned of his run movement but not during the middle.
What rule are you basing that on?
I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.
Same question, is that based on your interpretation of a rule or just how you would suggest house ruling it?
Absolutely. He can cast Feather Fall if he walks over a pit trap.Feaherfall is an IMMEDIATE action not a swift action.
I would not allow a caster to do a run 3x movement and at some time in hte middle of that run cast a quikcened spell. He could do it at the begining or the ned of his run movement but not during the middle.
And an immediate action used on your turn is a swift action.
You could house rule it that way, but it would be a house rule.
What rule are you basing that on?I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.Same question, is that based on your interpretation of a rule or just how you would suggest house ruling it?
House-rule.
House-rule.
What rule are you basing that on?I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.Same question, is that based on your interpretation of a rule or just how you would suggest house ruling it?
Today's metaphor is "throwing out the baby with the bathwater".
House-rule.
What rule are you basing that on?I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.Same question, is that based on your interpretation of a rule or just how you would suggest house ruling it?
Is it really an issue if you can kip up and then keep moving after being tripped during an AoO? If not why is there a need to only allow standard attacks with AoOs? What are the many other issues you allude to?
Is it really an issue if you can kip up and then keep moving after being tripped during an AoO? If not why is there a need to only allow standard attacks with AoOs? What are the many other issues you allude to?House-rule.
What rule are you basing that on?I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.Same question, is that based on your interpretation of a rule or just how you would suggest house ruling it?
(Edit: Server ate mah post!)
The main issue I can see is that kip-up removes one of the few ways a front-rank defender can use to stop or slow attackers attempting to close with the squishy rear ranks. Unfortunately, DrDeth's solution would make this issue even worse. I can live with kip-up mid-move; it isn't a terribly common feature and the ability is pretty thematic for the class.
I like it!
The fearless hero avoids the enemies blade by throwing his body forward and rolls to his feet to deliver a mortal blow to the wicked orc raider.
Is it really an issue if you can kip up and then keep moving after being tripped during an AoO? If not why is there a need to only allow standard attacks with AoOs? What are the many other issues you allude to?House-rule.
What rule are you basing that on?I strongly suggest that only standard attacks be allowed for a AoO. This solves the entire issue, and many others.Same question, is that based on your interpretation of a rule or just how you would suggest house ruling it?(Edit: Server ate mah post!)
The main issue I can see is that kip-up removes one of the few ways a front-rank defender can use to stop or slow attackers attempting to close with the squishy rear ranks. Unfortunately, DrDeth's solution would make this issue even worse. I can live with kip-up mid-move; it isn't a terribly common feature and the ability is pretty thematic for the class.
Remember that there is a cost to doing this, namely using your 1 swift action per turn. Swashbucklers do use a fair amount of swift actions with Panache. So the guy who Kipped Up cannot then double his Precise Strike.
It also costs a panache point to kip-up as a swift action.
You can double move in a round so you would need to use a 2nd action to continue the movement, but it would not be unimpeded since the trip interrupted your first attempt to move. Being able to stand up fast does not negate the fact that you were tripped(prone) which stop normal movement.You are correct that you cannot move without spending another action, but in the case of Kip Up you are spending a swift action. Nothing in being tripped says that it ends your movement action. Normally using another action ends the first action, but free/swift actions are an exception to that rule. So, there is no reason that you cannot Kip Up after being tripped and continue moving the remainder of your move speed all within the same move action.
Trip doesnt but being prone means you cant move normally. You can only move five feet and that takes a move action. So once you are prone you cant move until you are not prone. That means for that instant you are prone you are not moving.
Related question: A caster casts a touch spell, and they get a touch attack as a free action. Can they then effectively "Spring Attack" without the feat to move, touch, and continue moving?
My gut says no they can't, and if that's the case, the Swashbuckler shouldn't be able to move, kip-up, and continue moving.
Trip doesnt but being prone means you cant move normally. You can only move five feet and that takes a move action. So once you are prone you cant move until you are not prone. That means for that instant you are prone you are not moving.You can double move in a round so you would need to use a 2nd action to continue the movement, but it would not be unimpeded since the trip interrupted your first attempt to move. Being able to stand up fast does not negate the fact that you were tripped(prone) which stop normal movement.You are correct that you cannot move without spending another action, but in the case of Kip Up you are spending a swift action. Nothing in being tripped says that it ends your movement action. Normally using another action ends the first action, but free/swift actions are an exception to that rule. So, there is no reason that you cannot Kip Up after being tripped and continue moving the remainder of your move speed all within the same move action.
Which is not the same thing as ending your action.
Related question: A caster casts a touch spell, and they get a touch attack as a free action. Can they then effectively "Spring Attack" without the feat to move, touch, and continue moving?
My gut says no they can't, and if that's the case, the Swashbuckler shouldn't be able to move, kip-up, and continue moving.
Since a free (or swift) action can be done in the middle of an action, then by RAW yes they can. But the still provoke for leaving a threatened square, unlike with Spring Attack.
Bringing up the Touch Spell interaction is interesting. While I had never thought of that, I also don't really see a reason why you couldn't, unless my interpretation of Free Actions is incorrect, and you cannot use it in the middle of another action.
And if that is the case, then they need to reskin and reword how drawing ammunition works.
At one point or another, I have seen certain "actions" be labeled as "no action," and those actions probably existed to create a difference between Free Actions and No Actions. I don't remember if this was Paizo, or 3.5, or what, but I remember there being a distinction in a d20 system somewhere.
We used the cast a spell, move, touch and move action in my game last weekend. Our fighter went down, and the baddies were going to CDG him. I was a flying wizard. I cast vanish, flew adjacent to the fighter's unconscious body, touched him, and then finished my movement out to get out of melee range again. Buying us an additional round before the CDG could complete.