On his own, his Con is now 10(12), and his HP is 9. Pretty simple.
Fused with the eidolon, Con becomes 13(15). +2 bonus total. Temp HP is d10 + 2 or to go with the example earlier, 8 temp hp.
9 + 8 for hp, or 9(17). Tada!
Incorrect. The synthesist uses the eidolon's Con score while fused.
Excuse me, but where did I mess that up?
On his own, con is 10(12)
Fused, he uses eidolon con, which is 13. He still has a +2 CON belt on, which makes that 13(15).
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On his own, his Con is now 10(12), and his HP is 9. Pretty simple.
Fused with the eidolon, Con becomes 13(15). +2 bonus total. Temp HP is d10 + 2 or to go with the example earlier, 8 temp hp.
9 + 8 for hp, or 9(17). Tada!
Incorrect. The synthesist uses the eidolon's Con score while fused.
Excuse me, but where did I mess that up?
On his own, con is 10(12)
Fused, he uses eidolon con, which is 13. He still has a +2 CON belt on, which makes that 13(15).
/sigh
I responded to the wrong post.
well, i never actually considered banning the synth, until apparently he gets to double dip magic items.
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It has nothing to do with magic items. The synthesist gets two hp pools from Con. Regular hit points and temporary hit points. Spending evolution points on Ability Increase: Constitution or large size has an identical effect.
Are you going to ban every other class combination that allows double dipping in a stat? There are quite a few that are far more questionable than the synthesist, whose ability to double dip is explicit.
It has nothing to do with magic items. The synthesist gets two hp pools from Con. Regular hit points and temporary hit points. Spending evolution points on Ability Increase: Constitution or large size has an identical effect.
Are you going to ban every other class combination that allows double dipping in a stat?
no, once again, just ones that get to double dip magic items.
Wonderful. Since any class combination that can double dip a stat receives double benefit from a magic item increasing that stat you'll be a busy boy banning things.
My suggestion: CRB only. No archetypes or prestige classes. You should be safe then.
except they don't because the ability score is still onyl one ability score, this is the only instance you gain the benefit on multiple copies of the same stat.
i don't even know what your arguing for.
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Wonderful. Since any class combination that can double dip a stat receives double benefit from a magic item increasing that stat you'll be a busy boy banning things.
My suggestion: CRB only. No archetypes or prestige classes. You should be safe then.
except they don't because the ability score is still onyl one ability score, this is the only instance you gain the benefit on multiple copies of the same stat.
i don't even know what your arguing for.
Monk + Sacred Fist
Lore Oracle + Divine Protection
Alchemist + Kirin Strike (up to 4x INT bonus to damage)
I could go on....
Wonderful. Since any class combination that can double dip a stat receives double benefit from a magic item increasing that stat you'll be a busy boy banning things.
My suggestion: CRB only. No archetypes or prestige classes. You should be safe then.
except they don't because the ability score is still onyl one ability score, this is the only instance you gain the benefit on multiple copies of the same stat.
i don't even know what your arguing for.
Monk + Sacred Fist
Lore Oracle + Divine Protection
Alchemist + Kirin Strike (up to 4x INT bonus to damage)
I could go on....
don't see the follow through, don't see why your arguing still either, the real point I'd like you to address.
THIS IS EXACTLY how I see it, but some other people here sees it differently which creates confusion on who has the right answer.i don't see it a faq worthy. it's pretty simple:
your hp at any point is:
(if using average and not rolled)
(8+(lvl-1)*4.5)+con*lvlcorrect?
now, calculate the hp based on your current con
when you are a synthesist you use eidolon's con as your own. so calculate your HP based on eidolon's con.
so the above equation, for a fused synthesist, changes to
(8+(lvl-1)*4.5)+EidolonCon*lvlan eidolon, has at any given moment hp equal to:
5.5*HD+ EidolonCon*HD (note here that HD=/= lvl since eidolon has less)so, fused, there is only ONE con score, and that is the eidolon's.
if it gets increased in anyway, like p.e. with a belt.
then both pools get increase.it's simple, no need to overcomplicate things
the only thing I find controversial is whether or not the eidolon gains the bonus con and thus has it apply to temp hp. if the eidolon wasn't in some form considered a separate entity, then you couldn't apply the non-existent con score to you.
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don't see the follow through, don't see why your arguing still either, the real point I'd like you to address.Wonderful. Since any class combination that can double dip a stat receives double benefit from a magic item increasing that stat you'll be a busy boy banning things.
My suggestion: CRB only. No archetypes or prestige classes. You should be safe then.
except they don't because the ability score is still onyl one ability score, this is the only instance you gain the benefit on multiple copies of the same stat.
i don't even know what your arguing for.
Monk + Sacred Fist
Lore Oracle + Divine Protection
Alchemist + Kirin Strike (up to 4x INT bonus to damage)
I could go on....
Monk + Sacred fist double dips wisdom to AC
Lore Oracle + Divine Protection double dips Charisma to Reflex
Alchemist + Kirin Style double dips intelligence to damage
If you plan on banning one archetype simply because it can double dip a stat, are you planning on banning every other class that can do so? There are quite a few.
stuffThe question thus changes to:
Does the eidolon gets the benefit of your magical items when fused?
The answer to that is given in this part:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.So, does the above translates to "the eidolon gets the benefit of the stat increasing magical items"?
I would rule yes.
Because if it is no:
Then there is no way to increase the str of the eidolon, so you end up hitting nothing
You can't increase your HP OR your temp HP because you are using your eidolon's con which you can't increase
And etc problems
it's more like you use the score in place of your own. you use it, but it isn't your eidolon's con anymore, it's being used for you and thus only applies to you. any enhancement applied only applies to you, not the eidolon's statistics that you use for combining.
If it did apply to your eidolon you could do this.
sum con: 10
eidolon: 20
wear belt +2 con
sum con: 12
eidolon: 20
fuse
sum con: 20+2
eidolon: 20+2
so the con your eidolon gives you is now 22
sum con: 22+2
eidolon: 22+2
you get my point
sum con: 24+2
eidolon: 24+2
don't see the follow through, don't see why your arguing still either, the real point I'd like you to address.Wonderful. Since any class combination that can double dip a stat receives double benefit from a magic item increasing that stat you'll be a busy boy banning things.
My suggestion: CRB only. No archetypes or prestige classes. You should be safe then.
except they don't because the ability score is still onyl one ability score, this is the only instance you gain the benefit on multiple copies of the same stat.
i don't even know what your arguing for.
Monk + Sacred Fist
Lore Oracle + Divine Protection
Alchemist + Kirin Strike (up to 4x INT bonus to damage)
I could go on....
Monk + Sacred fist double dips wisdom to AC
Lore Oracle + Divine Protection double dips Charisma to Reflex
Alchemist + Kirin Style double dips intelligence to damage
If you plan on banning one archetype simply because it can double dip a stat, are you planning on banning every other class that can do so? There are quite a few.
they double dip a stat, not apply a magic item to multiple stats(that aren't supposed to). this is like complaining that enhancement bonuses give a bonus to hit and damage on weapons.
the belt or headband or what have you only applies to a single ability score, which teh class uses twice.
WHY R U ARGUING?
...it's more like you use the score in place of your own. you use it, but it isn't your eidolon's con anymore, it's being used for you and thus only applies to you. any enhancement applied only applies to you, not the eidolon's statistics that you use for combining.
If it did apply to your eidolon you could do this.
sum con: 10
eidolon: 20
wear belt +2 con
sum con: 12
eidolon: 20
fuse
sum con: 20+2
eidolon: 20+2
so the con your eidolon gives you is now 22
sum con: 22+2
eidolon: 22+2
you get my point
sum con: 24+2
eidolon: 24+2
Except enhancement bonuses don't stack, so that argument wouldn't work.
Look at it another way, if the eidolon was the one wearing the belt (and the summoner not wearing the belt, since they share magic item slots), would it add to the eidolon's HP? I don't see how that would be any answer other than yes. So when the synthesist fuses with the eidolon, would it then get extra HP from the eidolon's higher Con score? The answer to that appears to be yes as well. Therefore, yes, the belt does boost both the temp and normal HP.
it's more like you use the score in place of your own. you use it, but it isn't your eidolon's con anymore,You are mistaken.While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution,The summoner doesn't use its own con score, but uses the Eidolon's score, but that score remains the score of the eidolon.
It clearly show that the summoner uses the eidolon's con (and that it remains the Eidolon's con, since the damage is applied to the eidolon).The eidolon takes Str, Dex, and Con damage or drain, the summoner takes Int, Wis, or Cha damage or drain. If this bring's the eidolon's Str or Dex to 0, the fused summoner/eidolon is helpless (though he can still dismiss the eidolon). If this brings the eidolon's Con to 0, it dies and returns to its home plane. If the eidolon goes away (whether dismissed, banished, or killed), the summoner immediately begins using his own Str, Dex, and Con.
There is no "spillover" for extra ability damage or drain beyond what it takes to reduce the eidolon to 0; if an eidolon with Constitution 1 takes 3 points of Con damage and dies, the summoner doesn't take the "extra" 2 points of Con damage.
then the summoner shouldn't gain hp from his eidolon's con. or use the con for hp. basically, your either using the eidolon's stats or you have them overlap on top of you, but the faq suggests both.
there are so many things about this that don't make sense from both a physical and mechanics point of view.
...it's more like you use the score in place of your own. you use it, but it isn't your eidolon's con anymore, it's being used for you and thus only applies to you. any enhancement applied only applies to you, not the eidolon's statistics that you use for combining.
If it did apply to your eidolon you could do this.
sum con: 10
eidolon: 20
wear belt +2 con
sum con: 12
eidolon: 20
fuse
sum con: 20+2
eidolon: 20+2
so the con your eidolon gives you is now 22
sum con: 22+2
eidolon: 22+2
you get my point
sum con: 24+2
eidolon: 24+2Except enhancement bonuses don't stack, so that argument wouldn't work.
Look at it another way, if the eidolon was the one wearing the belt (and the summoner not wearing the belt, since they share magic item slots), would it add to the eidolon's HP? I don't see how that would be any answer other than yes. So when the synthesist fuses with the eidolon, would it then get extra HP from the eidolon's higher Con score? The answer to that appears to be yes as well. Therefore, yes, the belt does boost both the temp and normal HP.
except you gain the con, there is no typing to any of it, if there's onyl one con score, your using your own score after bonuses for what to apply before bonuses. then ti makes an infinite loop.
if there's 2 seperate cons, then the con never bleeds over. the only reason 1 con will work is if you purposefully stop it from effecting itself.
basically, if theres one con score that is your's and your eidolon's, when you use your eidolons score for con, you use your current con score to do that. follow, you can't just have a separate con when you want it to.
if Sum con = X;
eidolon con = Y; and they're always equal
X = 10;
Y = 20;
then X = Y
X += 2
Y = X (just like an ability drain would apply)
X = Y
X+= 2
Y = X (just like an ability drain would apply)
X = Y
X+= 2
Y = X (just like an ability drain would apply)
X = Y
X+= 2
Y = X (just like an ability drain would apply)
X = Y
X+= 2
X == 30.
except you gain the con, there is no typing to any of it, if there's onyl one con score, your using your own score after bonuses for what to apply before bonuses. then ti makes an infinite loop.
Again, enhancement bonuses don't stack. The synthesist uses the eidolon's Con, meaning that the typing is kept. So the eidolon wearing the belt would have 20 +2 enhancement bonus Con. When the synthesist gets the eidolon's con, its still 20 +2 enhancement bonus Con. It doesn't suddenly lose its typing, meaning it doesn't suddenly start stacking when it normally wouldn't.
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Bandw2's problem is I think that he doesn't realize there are 2 states involved.
When not fused the summoner uses his own con score, then when fused he uses the Eidolon's score in place of his own. that means the belt stops affecting his con score and begins affecting the eidolons, then when he unfuses it goes back to affecting his score.
At each of these state changes both his base HP and the Eidolon's base HP get recalculated. First upon fusing, his HP recalculates based on the Eidolons con modifier but since he gains the benefits of his gear while fused the eidolons con goes up +2 and as a result the eidolon recalculates its HP as well.
the best way to think about it is that his own con score goes away completely as though it had never been, and then he and the eidolon begin sharing a score. Its not that his score becomes equal to the eidolons score, its that it is replaced by it.
Incorrect. You are one being, there is no distinction between summoner and eidolon once fused.
The RAW stating that fact has already been quoted earlier in the thread.
what does that have to do with the eidolon's effective HP for adding temp hp? you only gain the ability scores, not it's HD with it's own con.
as mentioned the eidolon's con REPLACES, you don't use your eidlon's con, your score is replaced with his. the eidolon never actually gains a bonus to con.
edit: nevermind Darksol the Painbringer is wrong, i need to check my own information and not use others. :/
I'm not sure what you read into my statements, but I didn't state that you replace hit dice (only that I'm using averages for calculations), nor did I contradict myself once; I might not have done the math correctly, however, apples and oranges. Let me start from the top again:
You have 3rd level Summoner with 12 Con base. Eidolon has 20 Con base. Summoner comes equipped with a Belt, adding a +2 Enhancement Bonus to his Constitution score, which is added to the base total. Simple enough, right?
Assuming average rolls for both subjects, you'll run into a 20 Hit Point Summoner, and a 36 hit point Eidolon, correct?
Now, when the Summoner fuses with the Eidolon, the Eidolon's base Constitution Score becomes the Summoner's Constitution score as well. So instead of the Summoner having only 20 hit points, he'll have 32 total hit points, with an extra 36 hit points counting as temp.
Once we throw in a Constitution Belt, his Constitution Score receives a +2 Enhancement bonus. So, while not fused with the Eidolon, his Constitution Score becomes 14, resulting in 23 Hit Points total. While fused, his total hit points becomes 35, with an extra 39 hit points counting as temp, resulting in an otherwise grand total of 74 hit points.
Of course when it comes to a blanket increase, it's fairly simple. It is when we get to permanent increases, such as leveling attribute points, or using attribute tomes/Wishes to increase stats, that it becomes important to note the difference of which affects which, but even those are simple as well, since those increase the statistic of one entity.
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I'm not sure what you read into my statements, but I didn't state that you replace hit dice (only that I'm using averages for calculations), nor did I contradict myself once; I might not have done the math correctly, however, apples and oranges. Let me start from the top again:
You have 3rd level Summoner with 12 Con base. Eidolon has 20 Con base. Summoner comes equipped with a Belt, adding a +2 Enhancement Bonus to his Constitution score, which is added to the base total. Simple enough, right?
Assuming average rolls for both subjects, you'll run into a 20 Hit Point Summoner, and a 36 hit point Eidolon, correct?
Now, when the Summoner fuses with the Eidolon, the Eidolon's base Constitution Score becomes the Summoner's Constitution score as well. So instead of the Summoner having only 20 hit points, he'll have 32 total hit points, with an extra 36 hit points counting as temp.
Once we throw in a Constitution Belt, his Constitution Score receives a +2 Enhancement bonus. So, while not fused with the Eidolon, his Constitution Score becomes 14, resulting in 23 Hit Points total. While fused, his total hit points becomes 35, with an extra 39 hit points counting as temp, resulting in an otherwise grand total of 74 hit points.
Of course when it comes to a blanket increase, it's fairly simple. It is when we get to permanent increases, such as leveling attribute points,...
This
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Of course when it comes to a blanket increase, it's fairly simple. It is when we get to permanent increases, such as leveling attribute points, or using attribute tomes/Wishes to increase stats, that it becomes important to note the difference of which affects which, but even those are simple as well, since those increase the statistic of one entity.Yeah those are simple. Increases you get through leveling change your score and since you don't use your score while fused, you don't use it (thus no benefit while fused).
Increases your Eidolon gets through leveling are applied though.Inherent bonuses are bonuses, so these do apply while fused. But they don't stack, so if both you and the Eidolon have an inherent bonus to strength, you just use the better one.
I disagree about inherent bonuses, unless you can site a source that says otherwise, inherent bonuses are bonuses, but they do not come from gear (because tomes are consumable, they would not count as gear after consumption). Since the bonus doesn't come from gear, or a shared spell, they would not be conferred to the eidolon. Instead the eidolon would need its own inherent bonus. Of course this only applies to the physical stats. You of course would keep all your inherent bonuses to mental scores.
You double dip from the belt of constitution, you both use the same constitution score. Why are you guys even arguing this?
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You double dip from the belt of constitution, you both use the same constitution score. Why are you guys even arguing this?
Personally, I dislike the term double dipping, I feel like it implies something other than what is actually going on.
Its not that the Con modifier is being added as a bonus to the same thing twice, it is two separate functions that are being calculated from the same ability score modifier.
Double Dipping would be like the Monk/Sacred Fist adding his wisdom bonus to his AC twice.
This is a characters base HP being calculated from what is effectively his con score, and then a separate pool of temporary HP granted by a class ability which is also calculated using that same score. Anything that affects this score positively or negatively will cause both pools to recalculate accordingly.
Its double dipping because the eidolon gets a benefit from the belt, and the summoner gets a benefit from the belt by virtue of using the eidolons con score.
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The Eidolon and the synth are one being so its not doubledipping that one being is just using that one stat as a modifier for 2 different calculations.
Using the belt for calculating Base HP and Temp HP is no different than using it for Base HP and Fort Save, since the belt helps all three, are you then triple dipping?
If you said that you triple dip as a synthesist because a belt of Con helps your HP, Temp HP, and Fort save, I wouldn't disagree with you. Its not the most common usage, but its not wrong either.
I'm not even going to count how many dips a Dex belt would be then, if you count the AC bonus, initiative bonus, reflex save, each skill, attack with finesse weapons, etc. all separately...
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I'm not even going to count how many dips a Dex belt would be then, if you count the AC bonus, initiative bonus, reflex save, each skill, attack with finesse weapons, etc. all separately...
This is basically my point, and why i prefer not to use the term, yes its not wrong, but the connotation is much more negative. When compared to all the things a dex belt gives you though, there is nothing even remotely unbalanced about it.
You double dip from the belt of constitution, you both use the same constitution score. Why are you guys even arguing this?
Doubledipping is a term only used when you're modifying the same statistic with the same modifier type twice, i.e. adding two separate sources that add your Charisma to your saves; this does not fall under such because you are not adding the same amount twice to the same statistic. If you are going to call the pot black, make sure you're comparing it to the kettle, not the cookie sheet, which has all manners of gray area.
Your Constitution score, when fused, instead of it being your own score, becomes your Eidolon's Constitution score. This increases your normal HP by the amount of Constitution difference between you and your Eidolon (or, in extremely rare cases, would decrease hit points if you manage to get a base constitution score higher than your Eidolon's).
That same score, when fused, also calculates the temporary HP you gain, and is factored in to the Eidolon's hit points (the total of which you get as your temporary HP).
Even if the mechanics are fundamentally the same, regular HP is not the same as temporary HP, no matter how many ways you look at it, and they are called out as separate entities in the book for a reason. By your same logic, Spells and Spell-Like Abilities must be the same, and Arcane and Divine spells must be the same too.
Except, you know, they're not, and they're cited in the book as completely different subjects.