Ha, I wasn't even thinking of Seltyiel. I've written hiom off so completely (shame on me, I know) that I forget what powers he has beyond his signature one.I'm sure he could seem awful, with a different set of boons and banes (better for other characters) in the box than that which the designers intended.
Oh wait, I forgot - that's exactly what you do.
I don't know what your problem is, why you're so rude in all of your posts where I'm involved.
But to answer your post, if you had actually read through all the posts in the thread to which you're obviously referencing, you would know that I *occasionally* alter the box to mix it up, no different than how some people use homebrew characters. There was a lot of dead time in RotR before we got S&S, OP, over 30 new characters, and so on. I got bored. But that doesn't mean I don't know how the game is supposed to play, or that I don't play it normally a lot, or even that I've messed with S&S's ratios ever (I haven't). If anything, I probably have a better understanding of parts of the game than most due to my experimentation. But let me reiterate: I normally play the game with the designer's ratios, I know how it plays out.
Besides, it's not like I'm the only one who thinks he's awful, relative to the other characters; and even then, I feel that none of the characters are all that much better or worse than the majority.
Woah, woah woah guys... hug it out.
That being said, the whole Damiel as unbelievable and Seltyiel/Oloch (to a degree) being awful thing has been completely overdone. I like Damiel, but after playing through the Wormwood Mutiny with him I'm not seeing him as being on Lini (RotR) level. He is extraordinarily prepared. With a Tot Flask and one PoHealing he should never ever be at risk of dying and without blessings to be utilized. I actually prefer Feiya in that grouping (party of Damiel, Feiya, Lini, Oloch and Ranzak - the I was waiting for the character add on crew).
Seltiyel is just as capable in combat as Damiel, he only lacks the ridiculous level of deck cycling (and wisdom d4 is definitely worse than charisma d4). No matter how you cut it, Damiel has 7 potential offensive slots at the beginning and there aren't enough alchemical attack potions to give him more than 4 (1 weapon, 3 potions) at outset. It is possible, inevitiable even, that he will end up with struggling to have the right item on hand when a monster shows up.
Seltiyel's group was a smaller set - 3 man party with Valeros and Alzahara - and he performed well. After having played through AD1 with everybody and AD2 with everybody but the add on crew, I'm comfortable saying that Seltiyel is actually solid with the potential to be better than that as time goes on.
I don't think anyone has said Oloch is awful? He is a slow build character, but becomes amazing with a few feats under his belt.
Saying that "Seltiyel is just as capable in combat as Damiel" is in indictment of Seltiyel. He better be as capable at combat, because he doesn't have powers to support the party that Damiel has, its much harder for him to pack non-combat cards (with very limited item and ally slows and powers that he can only use with attack spells), and he with a less useful skill set.
In practice, I've never seen Damiel run into a situation that he can't fight a monster through 15 games. Even without bombs or a weapon, he still throws 3d6 in combat without assistance from other party members, which is more than enough to get you through weaker foes in the set. And after you get a few scenarios under your belt, he should have Tot flasks, which ensure that he can always pull a bomb if he needs one.
I keep looking at his (Seltyiels's) role cards and seeing a bane destroying machine. The ability to discard an attack spell for 2d6 against a barrier seems to make up for his "lack of utility." Especially since he can then attempt to recharge the spell at the end of his turn.
Even I, who despises running armor, can see Oloch doing alright (not being awful). But I do think he'd be terribly slow and dull.
I keep looking at his (Seltyiels's) role cards and seeing a bane destroying machine. The ability to discard an attack spell for 2d6 against a barrier seems to make up for his "lack of utility." Especially since he can then attempt to recharge the spell at the end of his turn.
That's a cool power. I love destroying barriers... But that's not until halfway through the AP...
One thing about Seltyiel: He isn't scared of golems or other banes that prevent playing spells with the attack trait. When he uses his power, and recharges his spell, he isn't playing the spell, he's playing the weapon. So all those checks and powers that can be issues for other casters aren't for him. Unless something prevents him from playing weapons and spells, he can play one and recharge the other.
And I think most of his weaknesses (every character has them) can be overcome with some cards. Ships are the big concern about his Wisdom, right? Well, I think all the ships have an OR option as well. Then, give him the loot hat item from Adventure 1. It adds 1 to his Wisdom...but 1d8 when he is on a ship. So in anchored scenarios, he can work to avoid the ships by not hanging out at the anchored location. In non-anchored scenarios the hat can help him make the Wisdom check if the ship's other check is an issue.
I think he looks fun. He might be the kind of character that requires teamwork and strategy, but there a lot of those characters, and I've found them to often be the most fun.
People are misconstruing my statements about Seltyiel. Is Seltyiel fun to play? Yes, I think so. Is he a viable character? Certainly, particularly if he gets supports from other characters. But, even if you compensate for his weakness(and yes, I do give him Besmara's Tricorn), I find that he brings less to the table than any of the other seven characters in I have played in Skull & Shackles. He is exceedingly narrow in focus, and isn't significantly better at the combat than other combat characters.
Yes, he begins to become more flexible somewhere in AP4, where he can either discard to deal with banes or swap to utility spells since his sword based combat dice are through the rough. But in either case those benefits only appear in the last third of the AP (20-25 sessions through a 35 session campaign). And, at least for S&S, that is a purely theoretical discussion. Actually playing him through the first fifteen games, he benefits the party less than anyone else I have tried.
People are misconstruing my statements about Seltyiel. Is Seltyiel fun to play? Yes, I think so. Is he a viable character? Certainly, particularly if he gets supports from other characters. But, even if you compensate for his weakness(and yes, I do give him Besmara's Tricorn), I find that he brings less to the table than any of the other seven characters in I have played in Skull & Shackles. He is exceedingly narrow in focus, and isn't significantly better at the combat than other combat characters.
I think most folks like Mechalibur, Joshua and Orbis who have assessed the strengths of various S&S characters have always had a caveat saying that these are all relative assessments compared to entirety of the roster. No doubt Seltyel is a fun character to play no matter what, and is a viable play option. Anyone wanting to try out his unique spell&blade mechanic is likely going to enjoy themselves.
What I think they are saying is that in the context of the entire roster of characters available to you in S&S, Seltyel is on the lower scale of the power curve, specifically regarding his very narrow utility as a combat specialist and little else. Seltyel comes up short in a number of ways when compared to a Damiel or Alzhara or even Jirelle.
Does that mean they are saying that no one should play him? Absolutely not, and there are many on these message boards saying that they are absolutely enjoying their run with the magus.
And in regards to S&S, which is the path these characters were designed for, keep in mind we are only on adventure 2, so who knows what kinds of banes and scenarios are still to come.
It could be that a specialized Seltyel catches up to other characters by AP 4-6 simply due to the nature of the challenges in late game S&S.
People are misconstruing my statements about Seltyiel. Is Seltyiel fun to play? Yes, I think so. Is he a viable character? Certainly, particularly if he gets supports from other characters. But, even if you compensate for his weakness(and yes, I do give him Besmara's Tricorn), I find that he brings less to the table than any of the other seven characters in I have played in Skull & Shackles. He is exceedingly narrow in focus, and isn't significantly better at the combat than other combat characters.
I think most folks like Mechalibur, Joshua and Orbis who have assessed the strengths of various S&S characters have always had a caveat saying that these are all relative assessments compared to entirety of the roster. No doubt Seltyel is a fun character to play no matter what, and is a viable play option. Anyone wanting to try out his unique spell&blade mechanic is likely going to enjoy themselves.
What I think they are saying is that in the context of the entire roster of characters available to you in S&S, Seltyel is on the lower scale of the power curve, specifically regarding his very narrow utility as a combat specialist and little else. Seltyel comes up short in a number of ways when compared to a Damiel or Alzhara or even Jirelle.
Does that mean they are saying that no one should play him? Absolutely not, and there are many on these message boards saying that they are absolutely enjoying their run with the magus.
I think this is correct, although I scoff at the "even Jirelle"... I think Jirelle is THE most underrated character in S&S. She can do anything, she may not have that one thing that makes everybody look at her, but she can do everything well.
We'll see more as things play out more. One thing I do think is great about PACG is that every character is different in each player's hands with the way they play. My Damiel may not be as efficient as somebody elses for example. There were wide ranging opinions on RotR Lini ranging from she wasn't good to she was broken (she was... d4+4 on literally every check you make is beyond ridiculous). We're all looking at the same game, but we see it different. I love that.
True that. I think Mike, Tanis et al put a lot of work into these characters. A true labour of love. I think the differences of opinion on the relative worth of these characters is actually a great thing, reflecting the emergent gameplay and unique experience this game can be for different groups.
My group actually found the most success with Selytiel when the player just straight ignored the spellblade power and went full utility with him. Frankly, his biggest problem in large groups is that he cycles fairly slowly, and having to deal with both weapons AND attack spells getting stranded in your hands, a few rounds of running into nothing but non-combat checks and he is screwed. By only using utility spells, you blank one of his powers, but in exchange get massively improved cycling, and d8+3 melee is still usually going to be good enough in the early going (especially since he can usually discard the weapon since he has multiple). At least, that's my take.
I'm looking forward to hopefully getting some good utility with the attack trait (something like Incendiary Cloud from RotR; the bonus to ranged combat spell is the only one we've seen so far, and it just doesn't seem that good), which would allow him to use that power again while still having the ability to cycle utility spells.
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I think this is correct, although I scoff at the "even Jirelle"... I think Jirelle is THE most underrated character in S&S. She can do anything, she may not have that one thing that makes everybody look at her, but she can do everything well.
I second this; Jirelle is a rock star. She gets stuff done. She has become the official captain of one my parties (why she chose Ranzak has her first mate, I may never understand).
I'm looking forward to hopefully getting some good utility with the attack trait (something like Incendiary Cloud from RotR; the bonus to ranged combat spell is the only one we've seen so far, and it just doesn't seem that good), which would allow him to use that power again while still having the ability to cycle utility spells.
I was going to post on this actually. Illuminate, for instance, I think has the Attack trait. Right? But it is a utility spell in terms of what it does. I know there are a few others too. Those would seem to probably be good spells for him to have.
I think my accidental misreading of Selytiel made the character very intriguing
I believed at first that his spell blade power could only be used by Non-Attack spells (Essentially charging his blade with arcane energies)
This allowed Selytiel much more utility as his focus on Non-Attack spells meant a much more interactive and interesting character.
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I second this; Jirelle is a rock star. She gets stuff done. She has become the official captain of one my parties (why she chose Ranzak has her first mate, I may never understand).
I think this is correct, although I scoff at the "even Jirelle"... I think Jirelle is THE most underrated character in S&S. She can do anything, she may not have that one thing that makes everybody look at her, but she can do everything well.
Barely started the campaign but have been very surprised by just how competent Jirelle is at most of the important checks in the game, couple that with her reroll power and she just gets the job done. I think shes the true all star of our group right now.
Re: Illuminate.
It does have the attack. As does Fear.
Even I, who despises running armor, can see Oloch doing alright (not being awful). But I do think he'd be terribly slow and dull.
I keep looking at his (Seltyiels's) role cards and seeing a bane destroying machine. The ability to discard an attack spell for 2d6 against a barrier seems to make up for his "lack of utility." Especially since he can then attempt to recharge the spell at the end of his turn.That's a cool power. I love destroying barriers... But that's not until halfway through the AP...
One of the biggest problems with Armor is that it can get clogged in your hand if it's not a Magic Armor. Cycling through your deck efficiently is IMO one of the most important features in the game, so Armor gets a bad rap.
However, Oloch mitigates that weakness by being able to use them as Cures right from the beginning (without a Power Feat I mean), so it's a lot less worrisome.
Actually, I think Oloch was designed really well. Both of his initial powers work with each other; you don't care about exploring much if most of your hand is empty due to the displays, so before you get the feat to return them at the start of your turn, you can Cure instead.
Wait, we were talking about Sphere of Fire...
Would you want to use fear on Seltyiel? I don't think I have ever run into a situation while playing him where I found myself thinking, "I wish I could evade this monster." I guess I could conceive of a few corner cases when I had cleared a henchmen in another location and needed to move one their, but those have ore to do with theory craft than actual game experience.
I carry it for non combat monsters like the Siren Caller. Also, Owlbeartross. I hate that guy.
I like Fear (and other evade cards/powers) For villains that I'm not ready to encounter. Otherwise, yeah I'd rather just punch the monster in the face.
I like Fear (and other evade cards/powers) For villains that I'm not ready to encounter. Otherwise, yeah I'd rather just punch the monster in the face.
Fear doesn't work on villains.
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You could play it anytime outside of an encounter, your turn or not (though I would say once you've drawn your hand, you couldn't play it till the next person starts their turn).
As for playing it during combat, it is just like the recent clarification on Rage. You can play it during a combat encounter, however you must use it for that check. So, if you played it, you would have to use your Arcane / Divine + 1d6. By doing so, it is affecting the check you played it on, and you are fine.
Yeah. You can display it at any time except during an encounter (unless you are attempting a combat in said encounter and will be using the Sphere). So you can display it on your turn or someone else's and it stays displayed until the end of "your turn" (not simply the turn you displayed it on) or until you discard it for the extra dice.
Spheres of Destruction now have four essentially identical FAQ entries. Cards are recharged/discarded/banished when you use the discard power or at the end of your turn.
I was very surprised that Spheres have the text 'this counts as playing a spell'; does this mean that attacking with them prevents you from using other spells (Aid) even if it was played before the check? Or is it for character powers? Does Ezren draw a card everything time he bounces a Sphere off a monster's head? The Spheres are clearly their own new card family, but I would have thought they would be more like buffs (Strength, Speed, Glibness, etc.) and cloud spells. Can't remember the text for Walls of Unconventional Building Materials at the moment.