I'd restrict more feats to fighter only feats and only real fighter levels count not pseudo levels. You want to make a whirlwind attack be a fighter want access to critical feats be the fighter .
I'd restrict more feats to fighter only feats and only real fighter levels count not pseudo levels. You want to make a whirlwind attack be a fighter want access to critical feats be the fighter .
You're not really going to fix the fighter by taking away from the other classes. Especially stuff most of them probably don't want, and still requires feat trees. All you've really done is say you guys can't have this tertiary stuff.
Frankly you'd have better luck doing something closer to the opposite and eliminating feat trees for the fighter. Or feat trees altogether. It won't save him from his utter lack of utility but it will at least mean he may actually have more feats than everyone else.
So no feat requirements for feats but you must meet all other requirements of that feat.
Hmmm...
I like it.
Of course, one of the things I hate about this class comparing is that people try to compare as if you were putting the two individuals at opposite ends of a stadium and shouting "FIGHT". As a member of an adventuring party the fighter is going to have his own buffers, people to remove area control and status effects, etcetera. A bard to e Bard's escape to reposition the martial' damage capacity right next to the caster, etcetera. An adventuring party is a team, not a one on one gladiatorial arena.
Spells and rounds spent buffing the Fighter may be effective, but those spells and rounds could be spent hitting the enemy.
Turn the point around: The Fighter uses up party resources and all he's really good at is fighting. Many, many other classes are both good at fighting and bring their own resources to the party in the form of spells, skills, healing, and so on.
As a simple slap-on fix, this is kinda nice:
A fighter adds their class level to:
Ability score prerequisities for combat feats
Initiative
Base land movement speed (round down)
Two fighter class skills of your choice
Once per day to a saving throw roll of your choice.
Design Manager
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Of course, one of the things I hate about this class comparing is that people try to compare as if you were putting the two individuals at opposite ends of a stadium and shouting "FIGHT". As a member of an adventuring party the fighter is going to have his own buffers, people to remove area control and status effects, etcetera. A bard to e Bard's escape to reposition the martial' damage capacity right next to the caster, etcetera. An adventuring party is a team, not a one on one gladiatorial arena.Spells and rounds spent buffing the Fighter may be effective, but those spells and rounds could be spent hitting the enemy.
Turn the point around: The Fighter uses up party resources and all he's really good at is fighting. Many, many other classes are both good at fighting and bring their own resources to the party in the form of spells, skills, healing, and so on.
Exactly this. It's not "Does the Fighter win in a one on one fight against other classes with similar strengths" it's "Does the Fighter bring as much to the group as other classes with similar strengths".
Ashiel did a really comparison once showing that a Paladin and Fighter bring such similar damage-dealing capabilities to a party that there's almost no effective difference. So, if there's no effective difference between their damage dealing capabilities (that is, if the Fighter is dealing 25 points of damage per swing while the Paladin is dealing 22, and the average monster has 80 hp, so there's no in game difference between when the monster goes down), then you'd look at what else they bring to the group besides dpr. The Paladin, in this example, brings gobs of healing making him a better tank and a secondary source of healing for the party (able to be a primary healer with the right builds), a limited but custom-tailored spell selection that vastly increases his options for contributing as well as his utility, great saves, similar skills but a secondary stat that boosts his social abilities and a lower reliance on CON, and his divine bond which further enhances his damage capabilities and/or total functionality in all roles. The Fighter has... nothing, really. A little more flexibility within his build?|
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As someone once explained, the game can be chopped up into several categories, like lets say:
Social
Exploration
DPR
Control
Recovery
Non-AC Defenses
These are S, E, D, C, R, and N. Assuming that 0 is the minimum proficiency necessary to perform a function adequately, the most you can have in any given field and still have a balanced game is +3, so a Ranger might look like this:
S +0, E +2, DPR +2, Control +0 to +1, Recovery +0 to +1, N +1
Total net score: 6 to 7So a pretty good spread divided evenly between the various game functions, with an emphasis on Exploration and DPR. Recovery and Control will vary based on spells prepared.
The Fighter looks more like this:
S -1, E- -1, DPR +3, Control -3 to +0, Recovery -3, N -3 to -1
Total net score: -7 to -9Note that the Fighter can shift his Non-AC defenses up to a -1 (maybe even a 0) by spending feats, but doing so likely means he loses his spot as top DPR and drops to a +2. So, sure, the Fighter has a +3 in DPR, which is better than the Ranger, but he pays for it by being terrible in everything else. And the Ranger still has a +2, meaning he is two substantial steps above the minimum amount necessary to meaningfully contribute. For many enemies, there will be no functional difference between a +2 and a +3 because if trhey have 12 hit points, it doesn't matter if the Ranger is dealing 15 and the Fighter is dealing 18, the creature was defeated by both characters in the same amount of time and with the same expenditure of time and resource.
**EDIT**
I probably should have included "Armor Class" as one of the relevant factors, in which case the Fighter has A +2 and the Ranger has A +1, shifting out totals to 7 to 8 for the Ranger and -6 to -8 for the Fighter.Eh, depends on the build for a lot of that. For control and non-AC defense, a good reach build could do a lot.
Besides the fact that your standard polearm turns you into a 25' circle of pain (ie- anything that tries to get around you to eat the wizard's kidneys get smacked), you can further how you control this using lunge.
Lunge gives +5 reach during your turn (and ends when your turn ends), and as such get underestimated in terms of importance for reach since it does help with AoO's. But it is in fact perfect- an enemy usually ends up 10' away when you hit it. They only have to take a 5' step (which means no AoO) and they can full attack. But with lunge, enemies end up 15' feet away, and they both draw an AoO and likely lose their full attack. You can fight against an enemy, getting full attacks without going into the usual 'A wails on B, B wails on A, wash rince repeat until we see who does more DPR'.
Also, when you include your own 5' step, lunge allows you to full attack anything within a 45' circle... which is always nice for a melee character. With that, I would hardly even need all these 'give everyone pounce' demands I always see on these threads....
Now, a lot of that stuff is available to pretty much everyone.... but fighters can grab that, and then grab a couple of other tricks along the way (I am now in love with ACG's riving strike, which is basically a 1 turn evil eye hex against spells; debuffing with a -2 to saves is always sweet). I also love the new mutagenic warrior, which gives you freakin' wings for long enough per day from the get go that you can do it every fight. You still need a wizard for long term stuff...but stabbing wyverns 100 feet in the air without any help still makes me warm inside. Plus it has extra strength boosts similar to rage...but hey, we all agree that DPR is not so much the problem here. I'm not saying no though, even if I would have traded armor training away for just the wings...
Anyway, I can certainly agree that fighters could use more skill points and better class skills (which would get themsomewhere out of the red with your point system), but I can be happy with what I can build. Saves...a bit troublesome, but you are just not trying hard enough if you can't make a character that makes the uninvested wizard look bad when your main resource is 'tons of feats'. So it is more of a resource sink that has to be dealt with than anything...
You'll notice that I already noted that the Fighter's control capabilities can get up to +0 in the equation, i.e. the minimum amount necessary to adequately perform that function. It still doesn't touch the functionality of even a 1/2 or 3/4 caster in that department though. Similarly, Lunge is "underestimated" because it's usefulness is incredibly situational and buys you at best, one extra attack at the expense of making yourself more vulnerable.
As to the "Fighter's can have good saves because feats", this is the argument that always ends up going in circles, but long story short, they can have, at best, adequate saves at the cost of their only advantage. They don't actually have that many more feats than other classes. For example, the Fighter has 5 more feats than the Ranger. Spending one feat evens them up for the length of exactly 1 level (1st level, where it matters least) before he falls behind again. A wizard beats his feat with a single, unlimited, renewable casting of resistance. The Fighter can keep pouring resources in to his saves to boost them up, but he'll never get them higher than "sort of adequate" (thus my note that he can boost them as high as -1; worth noting that certain races can surpass this, like dwarves, but that is not a benefit of the Fighter class, that's a benefit of being a dwarf). "Sort of adequate" is a pretty disappointing ROI for giving up the one thing you actually had going for you. And it's not like the other classes are getting nothing while the Fighter is getting these feats; as a general rule they're getting class features, which are usually more powerful.
Unfortunately, the only real fix without going to PF 2.0 is to raise the quality of feats. There's a few ways to do that without it equating to a direct boost to classes that don't need the helping hand, but the fact that the Fighters main schtick is a resource available to everyone (and even the restricted feats have several classes with back door access), means that he's working from a disadvantage right from the get-go.
Kindly note that the Fighter cannot boost his saves at all. Bonus combat feats do NOT number save boosting feats among their number.
A CHARACTER can boost his saves, but it's not a capability of the Fighter class.
===Aelryinth
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That is being rather pedantic. The fact that he spends those bonus feats on combat feats means he may have some of his normal feats free for save boosting. To a degree feats are a fungible asset.Kindly note that the Fighter cannot boost his saves at all. Bonus combat feats do NOT number save boosting feats among their number.
A CHARACTER can boost his saves, but it's not a capability of the Fighter class.
===Aelryinth
Which is why I, in my own response, noted that there is some flexibility there, it just doesn't actually lead to a benefit that's equivalent to cost. When the Fighter starts bleeding out feats to cover the inadequacies of his own class chassis instead of progressing his character, the issue is self-evident. If you have one thing that you're good at, and your option is to give up being the best at it so that you can bring yourself up to near adequacy in other areas, you're barely making the cut as a "hero" anymore.
That is being rather pedantic. The fact that he spends those bonus feats on combat feats means he may have some of his normal feats free for save boosting. To a degree feats are a fungible asset.Kindly note that the Fighter cannot boost his saves at all. Bonus combat feats do NOT number save boosting feats among their number.
A CHARACTER can boost his saves, but it's not a capability of the Fighter class.
===Aelryinth
I agree, and you get bonus points for using the term "fungible asset"!
The Fighter actually has one of the most critical Good saves- Fortitude. Reflex? meh, since he has scads of HP, and usually has a OK dex.
So the issue is Will. With ONE- count 'em 1- feat, one trait, and a 12, you have +4. You are now equal to a Wizard until 14th level, by which time there are other solutions.... not the least of which is the campaign coming to a end.
The Ranger, Alchemist and Bbn are held up as balanced classes, but have the same issue. True, Bbn can take Superstitious, but that's problematic, doesn't stack with some of the best buff spells, and has a opportunity cost too.
The classes with Good Will saves often have Poor Fort saves, and then face the issue of buying Great Fort with far fewer feats. And, they cant say meh" as easily to Reflex, as HP is one thing they dont have a lot of. Sure, both those can be overcome with spells, but they only have so many spells and they only last so long.
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A Fighter's ability to improve his saves with feats is extremely limited. One feat grants a 10% increased chance of passing one saving throw. If he really pushed Charisma he could get Steadfast Personality, or if he somehow manages to have both 13 Wis and a good Charisma he might make a case to his DM to finagle Believer's Boon (Trickery Domain) into Divine Protection. As far as I know, that's it.
As for the Wizard comparison, yes you can get to par with one feat and one trait. But any class can take those because they are not limited by class. Sure the Fighter has more bonus feats than the Wizard, but he has to spend more feats on slightly different or slightly better ways to Use Iron On Badguy. The Wizard (or Alchemist or Bard etc) has most of this ability built right into the class, leaving them free to use feats and traits on other things.
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The FIghter has no more general feats then the wizard does.
Other classes have things that enhance their saves - Paladin Cha, Barb superstitious, Ranger evasion. Even Rogues have their prime Stat enhancing their one good save, so while they may lose the save or suck roll, they will almost always make the save or burn roll.
Other classes of course get spells to fill the hole.
The Fighter as a class gets none of those. Arguing you can take your General Feats as a character to plug a glaring hole in your class is a complete misrepresentation and glossing over of what is really taking place.
Class comparisons are to be done independently of external trivialities. Comparing the fighter's will save to the wizard's is fine. Comparing the expenditure of general feats to the wizard expending none is not fine.
Saying Race fixes a fighter's problems is similarly trying to deflect attention from the problems of the class.
And that example of a Trait, A save, and a Wis investment is par with a wizard at 10, and falls behind thereafter. With the wizard making no investment whatsoever. Except maybe picking up save booster items for half price with his class features, who knows?
==Aelryinth
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That is being rather pedantic. The fact that he spends those bonus feats on combat feats means he may have some of his normal feats free for save boosting. To a degree feats are a fungible asset.Kindly note that the Fighter cannot boost his saves at all. Bonus combat feats do NOT number save boosting feats among their number.
A CHARACTER can boost his saves, but it's not a capability of the Fighter class.
===Aelryinth
I agree, and you get bonus points for using the term "fungible asset"!
The Fighter actually has one of the most critical Good saves- Fortitude. Reflex? meh, since he has scads of HP, and usually has a OK dex.
So the issue is Will. With ONE- count 'em 1- feat, one trait, and a 12, you have +4. You are now equal to a Wizard until 14th level, by which time there are other solutions.... not the least of which is the campaign coming to a end.
"If the Fighter burns resources, he can be equal..." unless, you know, the Wizard wants to burn resources too. Like using a cantrip to boost all of his saves. Or picking up a Will boosting trait himself since it's fairly critical. Or has a 12 or better in WIS (because, you know, he wants to be the wise sage guy and has more flexibility in where he assigns his points than the Fighter). So no, that really doesn't pan out that way. The only resource there that the Fighter actually has more of than the Wizard is the feat, which I just addressed in my earlier post.
Reflex being "meh" for the Fighter is actually a bit silly as a statement. There's a ton fo spells that completely a martial character out of the fight that require a reflex save, such as (entangle, the entire create pit line of spells, fire of entanglement, banshee blast (which a Fighter is vulnerable to on multiple fronts), and adhesive blood just to name a tiny fraction of the spells that can cause the Fighter all kinds of issues on a failed Reflex save.
The full casters who get 2 bad saves generally have big options for overcoming those weaknesses (spells to make you harder to target/hit, spells which keep you out of range, spells that let you just fly/teleport out of the hazard, etc.), but the Fighter gets... Resources he can sacrifice for small static bonuses? If he goes really all in and abandons his crown as feat king, a 1/day reroll? It just doesn't equate.
plus, the fighter who is on the end of a pair of maximized intensified fireballs from a sorcerer spec for 180 damage might learn that will and fort aren't the only save-or-die saving throws.
==Aelryinth
A Fighter's ability to improve his saves with feats is extremely limited. One feat grants a 10% increased chance of passing one saving throw. If he really pushed Charisma he could get Steadfast Personality, or if he somehow manages to have both 13 Wis and a good Charisma he might make a case to his DM to finagle Believer's Boon (Trickery Domain) into Divine Protection. As far as I know, that's it.
As for the Wizard comparison, yes you can get to par with one feat and one trait. But any class can take those because they are not limited by class. Sure the Fighter has more bonus feats than the Wizard, but he has to spend more feats on slightly different or slightly better ways to Use Iron On Badguy. The Wizard (or Alchemist or Bard etc) has most of this ability built right into the class, leaving them free to use feats and traits on other things.
My usual method is this
12 WIS/8 CHAHalf elf with +2 will save trait or half orc with +1 to all saves
+1 from a trait
+2 from iron will
Iron will also leaves room for improved iron will, which is a nice little reroll on the save the determines whether you start shanking the wizard or not. With half elves, there is also a racial feat that gives another reroll (but only against enchantment spells and effects..again, anti- friendly shanking tech). So while iron will itself is not much, it leaves room for much better defensive options.
All together, a lot of the stuff stuff I listed above can be front loaded, so early on you can put a pure caster, high Wis cleric to shame. Later on, you are on par with an uninvested wizard, and still more reliable than most with your rerolls.
While yes, others can take a lot of these options...their more finite resources make it harder to do so. Improve your already impressive will save, or do you take another metamagic feat that lets you cripple and crush more enemies? When a lot of class guides advise wizards to have 7 WIS, you are working under certain expectations of the 'average', even without high optimized team mates.
My goal is not to be the best, but to cover my weak point so that it isn't a crippling flaw. And fighters have resources to spare in covering that.
fighters have no resources to cover that.
Characters have SOME resources to cover that.
It is a very important difference. You just used stat generation, race, trait, and general feat.
None of that comes from the fighter. Your 'fighter' expended nothing at all.
==Aelryinth
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fighters have no resources to cover that.
Characters have SOME resources to cover that.
It is a very important difference. You just used stat generation, race, trait, and general feat.
None of that comes from the fighter. Your 'fighter' expended nothing at all.
==Aelryinth
Ok, fighter gives you resources to do other things (like grabbing TWF or ranged feat, which are core to your character's playing style), which in turns frees up the resources that you get from the virtue of being an X leveled character to be used for more defensive options.
That is what you get from fighter- resources that lets you play your style and still have more flexible resources in reserve.
Aelryinth, isn't that true of paladin's bonus Cha to Saves too? The paladin class doesn't grant a bonus to saves, it just allows you to spend a general character resource - ability score points - to get a bonus.
Granted I agree with you that fighters have crappy saves and that their means of shoring up those means losing their main other benefits, but on principle it seems a very weird argument.
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But that's the thing - The Fighter doesn't have more resources than anyone else.
He gets a lot of bonus combat feats, freeing up some of his general feats, but nothing short of a truly absurd amount of feats can even begin to close the defense and utility gap with other classes.
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Ael ... You are making a meaningless distinction and treating it as something critical.
No.
I'm making a critical distinction and you are treating it as something meaningless. That's quite a difference.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, isn't that true of paladin's bonus Cha to Saves too? The paladin class doesn't grant a bonus to saves, it just allows you to spend a general character resource - ability score points - to get a bonus.
Granted I agree with you that fighters have crappy saves and that their means of shoring up those means losing their main other benefits, but on principle it seems a very weird argument.
No, Gaber, it's not.
The difference is that Cha is one of a paladin's two prime stats. It's arguable which is more important, Cha or Str.
In any event, assuming a fighter and a Paladin with identical stats, swap their CHa and WIsdom scores (this is actually standard for NPC's btw)
The Fighter will get +1 to his will save from a 12 Wis...and that's it. He can buy wis boosters. 8 CHa doesn't really help or hinder him, except for INtimidate rolls.
The Paladin has a good Will save. With an 8 Wis, he's still at +1. Except his 12 Cha gets him bonuses to ALL saves. And helps him smite. ANd bonus spells. and lay on hands. and Diplomacy.
Now, they both can buy stat boosters...the paladin's will affect ALL his saves, so he's getting 400% of the benefit the Fighter is, cash wise, in raising his saves. It's also affecting multiple other class abilities.
So, no, the fighter having to invest in a stat which is otherwise meaningless to his class is a COST.
The Paladin investing more into a primary statistic makes the exact same amount of sense as a spellcaster doing so.
Now, if the fighter investing in Str upped his fort save, you'd have a better baseline. But it doesn't.
==Aelryinth
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It's funny, because so far even the people on your side of the broader argument think you are making a niggling distinction here.Ael ... You are making a meaningless distinction and treating it as something critical.No.
I'm making a critical distinction and you are treating it as something meaningless. That's quite a difference.
==Aelryinth
You're actually seeing a very small fraction of the fighter argument.
In most of the threads, my point is spot on and agreed with by the posters 'on my side of the argument'. You don't make class comparisons by dragging in a) race b) general character feats c)traits d) non-prime ability scores or e) magical items.
Completely ignoring the fact that ANY melee class could take the same things and end up better then the fighter.
ALL typical fighter 'defenses' rely on non-fighter stuff, unlike the other melee classes, and the people who love the fighter and recognize the flaws are quite tired of it.
==Aelryinth
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Design Manager
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But that's the thing - The Fighter doesn't have more resources than anyone else.
He gets a lot of bonus combat feats, freeing up some of his general feats, but nothing short of a truly absurd amount of feats can even begin to close the defense and utility gap with other classes.
I think this is really a big part part of the point towards the general argument Aelryinth is making: You're not comparing a Fighter and his bonus feats to another class and its normal feats, you're comparing the Fighter and his bonus feats to another class and its class features, because the Fighter's bonus feats are his class features. If the Fighters bonus feats translate to (for example) "being good with weapons", how good is he really being if his normal resources are being spent on "stuff other than being good with weapons". The Ranger, for example, has two good saves and only 5 fewer feats than the Fighter. If the Fighter has to spend 2 feats to still have saves that are not as good as the Ranger, he's now only got a 3 feat edge from his class features, and he's using class features to do things the Ranger would do with his normal advancement while still getting his own separate and unique class features.
So, if a Ranger has a better save and is getting a normal feat and an animal companion, and the Fighter is spending his normal feat to boost his save and then spending his bonus feat to take what he would have taken anyways if he hadn't had to patch that hole, the Ranger's animal companion is basically entirely gravy over what the Fighter's getting (just as kind of a general example of the principle). Basically, Aelryinth's point, while probably not actually worth arguing about too much, is actually quite valid because it forces you to actually step back and look at what's really happening; the Fighter doesn't have more feats for things like Iron Will, because his class features (bonus feats) can't be used to buy Iron Will. And if he's using his class features to buy things he couldn't take because his normal resources were spent on plugging up giant holes in the chassis, then every time he spends a feat on something like Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes, he's actually falling an entire class feature behind his peers.
SSalarn's point is spot on.
Comparing a fighter's class features to points a-e above is not a comparison of classes.
===Aelryinth
The difference is that Cha is one of a paladin's two prime stats. It's arguable which is more important, Cha or Str.
But that doesn't change that ability scores is still a general character resource.
I'm not arguing with the end result, but with the argument for it. You seem very hung up on "character resource" vs "class ability", but for a fact the bonus paladins get to Cha are dependant on a character resource.
I think this is really a big part part of the point towards the general argument Aelryinth is making: You're not comparing a Fighter and his bonus feats to another class and its normal feats, you're comparing the Fighter and his bonus feats to another class and its class features, because the Fighter's bonus feats are his class features.
I think that's a bad way to go about things though, because you're not playing a class, you're playing a character.
If something is easily accessible via general character resources, you don't need to get it from class features. Those that argue the fighter's saves are fine (note: I'm not) argue that it is easy enough to get from general character resources.Because you can't fully separate class abilities from general resources. At that point, wizards basically can't learn spells from scrolls, because not only are scrolls a general character resource, so are the skill points for Spellcraft. A cleric can't cast about half her spells since they require a holy symbol. A cavalier does severely stunted damage as they don't have power attack etc.
Some things I think martials get unnecessary flak for because they are easily accessible through general resources (by 15th level, everyone can fly, class abilities or not), but while I don't agree fighter saving throws are one of them, trying to dismiss the argument with "not including any general resources" is, honestly, kind of silly.
I'm not making a big difference on the source of the feats, RDM42.
I'm pointing out that Fighter bonus feats are his class features, and that those feats are combat feats, NOT general feats.
You're looking at 1 feat = another feat.
A bonus combat feat does not equal a general feat. It's a subset.
A feat is already half a class feature, in most cases. In a fighter's case, it's less then a half feature, because it's not a full general feat choice.
In other words, the fighter's class resource comes from a population of feats that cannot contribute to his saving throws or versatility.
If the fighter bonus feats were just bonus general feats, I would not be making this point, because it would be moot. I would, however, be pointing out again that burning class features on mediocre defenses is taking away from his combat utility...you know, the thing combat feats are supposed to take care of.
Similarly, you are comparing apples to oranges trying to make the note of stat allocation. Stat allocation must again be even or similar to be relevant. The Wisdom allocation of a fighter is meaningless to this point, because every other class can make the same or equivalent stat allocation...it has nothing to do with class.
In other words, a barb and ranger and what-not will do the same thing as the fighter. The paladin will dump Wis instead of Cha, because he's further ahead to do so. Stats are still equivalent.
Take similar stats, wrap them in each class, and the fighter comes out behind again. It's an old story.
==Aelryinth
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The part about feats makes sense. Fighters can use their bonus feats on combat feats, saving up their normal feats for stuff like Iron Will. This also allows them to have feat chains earlier... Unfortunately, Fighters are extremely dependent on feat selection, and feats are usually not nearly as good as a real class feature.
However, traits, wisdom and race are not a valid argument for the Fighter, IMHO.
Anyone can take exactly the same traits and benefits just as much as any Fighter. Same goes for Wisdom. Fighters do not get any additional benefit from Wisdom, unlike a Paladin, who gets all sorts of goodies from Cha.
And if race is a valid argument, commoners are broken!
"If the Fighter burns resources, he can be equal..." unless, you know, the Wizard wants to burn resources too. Like using a cantrip to boost all of his saves. Or picking up a Will boosting trait himself since it's fairly critical.
Except that a Fighter has eleven more feats to burn than most classes, 7 more than the Wizard.
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Except that a Fighter has eleven more feats to burn than most classes, 7 more than the Wizard.
"If the Fighter burns resources, he can be equal..." unless, you know, the Wizard wants to burn resources too. Like using a cantrip to boost all of his saves. Or picking up a Will boosting trait himself since it's fairly critical.
...And he's burning them on bloated combat feat chains and/or getting a poor ROI on defense and utility feats.
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Except that a Fighter has eleven more feats to burn than most classes, 7 more than the Wizard.
"If the Fighter burns resources, he can be equal..." unless, you know, the Wizard wants to burn resources too. Like using a cantrip to boost all of his saves. Or picking up a Will boosting trait himself since it's fairly critical.
Irrelevant, because feats aren't the only resources (as I already discussed). Cantrips are resources. Spells are resources. Free crafting and/or metamagic feats are resources. School abilities are resources. And many of those are pools of resources far more versatile and effective than the Fighter's 7 feats. Barbarians get boosts to Will from Rage, sparing them the need for Iron Will. Rangers have an extra good save over the Fighter and are incentivized to pump the stat that shores up their one weak one (and later get spells that can further increase it, which are pumped by increasing it, so they get to kind of double-dip there).
So I'll say it again: every time the Fighter spends a feat to plug a hole in his chassis, he's falling another class feature behind his peers, and most of his "class features" weren't as good as theirs to begin with.
I actually think a martial master mutagen fighter does fairly well.
Flight + spont feats + not being tied to specific weapons = a character I could see playing.
Based on that here is my idea for a fighter-fix
1. Apply the Unbreakable and Martial Master archetypes for free(don't trade anything out)
2. Make weapon training a flat bonus to all weapons, allow the option for a fighter to instead focus on one weapon for double the bonuses.
3. Make cheap good flight items readily available
4. 4+int skill points
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I actually think a martial master mutagen fighter does fairly well.
Absolutely agreed. My only issue is that while it does make for a very solid character, chugging mutagen to turn into a horrific abomination capable of doing all those things that help with advancing into the higher levels successfully isn't very "Fighter-y". It's a little like fixing the Rogue by making him a Barbarian.
But the point that they are combat feats rather than general feats is, again, largely irrelevant - that combat feat you got for free, let's say "power attack" means you AREN'T spending your general feat on it. That general feat is then free for, say, iron will or whatever you wish. So really, for all intents and purposes the fact that the bonus feats are combat feat only is really irrelevant to the argument one way or another.I'm not making a big difference on the source of the feats, RDM42.
I'm pointing out that Fighter bonus feats are his class features, and that those feats are combat feats, NOT general feats.
You're looking at 1 feat = another feat.
A bonus combat feat does not equal a general feat. It's a subset.
A feat is already half a class feature, in most cases. In a fighter's case, it's less then a half feature, because it's not a full general feat choice.
In other words, the fighter's class resource comes from a population of feats that cannot contribute to his saving throws or versatility.
If the fighter bonus feats were just bonus general feats, I would not be making this point, Obecause it would be moot. I would, however, be pointing out again that burning class features on mediocre defenses is taking away from his combat utility...you know, the thing combat feats are supposed to take care of.
Similarly, you are comparing apples to oranges trying to make the note of stat allocation. Stat allocation must again be even or similar to be relevant. The Wisdom allocation of a fighter is meaningless to this point, because every other class can make the same or equivalent stat allocation...it has nothing to do with class.
In other words, a barb and ranger and what-not will do the same thing as the fighter. The paladin will dump Wis instead of Cha, because he's further ahead to do so. Stats are still equivalent.
Take similar stats, wrap them in each class, and the fighter comes out behind again. It's an old story.
==Aelryinth
RDM, your general feats are not class features.
You CANNOT spend your fighter bonus feats on Iron Will. Even if you WANT to.
Therefore, it's a general feat, which ANYONE ELSE can take. Which means you are back into equivalency, and not talking about class features, just characters.
And you don't get that feat 'for free'. It's a class feature of the fighter. You got it instead of something else...like a suitably powerful feat, like Extra Rage Power, or something.
Character general feats, race, traits and magic items for gold all fall under the 'not a feature of the fighter class'. Start talking about them, and you're moving away from class discussion to character discussion, and they are different things.
===Aelryinth
I don't have a problem with a fighter using mutagens...but it should be just another feat for him, perhaps tied to alchemy as a skill, not a full archetype.
He's chugging down personal potions he learned to make. Meh.
==Aelryinth
... And again, it's a distinction without a difference and pure semantics.
You're exaggerating. It's a distinction of debatable scale (and scale that may vary from negligible to significant from character to character), but it's obviously not pure semantics. I don't think you would be able to argue with a straight face that "bonus combat feat" is strictly as useful as "bonus feat" as a class feature.
And in fact, the more any particular character tries to take advantage of this oft-suggested fighter remedy (by aiming for a larger and larger number of non-combat feats), the more significant the distinction becomes.
IN practical terms, try to improve the fighter's saves with his bonus class feats, and you cannot do it. Period.
That seems pretty practically bad to me.
===Aelryinth
Except due to having the bonus class feats, you don't need to use his general feats for that purpose and are free to use the general ones. Again.IN practical terms, try to improve the fighter's saves with his bonus class feats, and you cannot do it. Period.
That seems pretty practically bad to me.
Now name 11 combat feats that you would actually want and are a meaningful impact at the level you receive them.
The point being is that the fighter has so many feats that taking iron will is not really an advantage. His general feats aren't really freed up if you don't really have enough feats that you want to make use of them.
Everyone can take iron will, nearly all of my will-deficient characters do. It's not a fighter advantage.
You would also have to really argue how those feat lists had a " meaningful impact at the level you receive them".
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eggzactly.
Saying just because you get combat feats you can spend general feats on something else is like saying because you get rage and rage powers you can spend general feats on something else.
Unfortunately for that comparison, it ignores the fact that rage and rage powers are considerably stronger and more versatile then combat feats. And yet Barbs might still choose to spend general feats, race, class, magic items and traits on defenses, crazily enough.
It's an opportunity cost. You have NO CHOICE but to spend your fighter bonus feats on combat feats. it's a class feature. Saying that because you get combat feats instead of general feats is nothing is exactly like saying because the paladin gets mercies and HIS class features, he can go ahead and spend general feats on defenses.
Except the paladin class features has enough defenses that he doesn't have to.
It's the very definition of opportunity cost.
General feats from character levels are in their own silos for any kind of class comparison and discussion. Bringing them in is just another way of glossing over the weakness of a class.
==Aelryinth