Slashing Grace: Useless?

[Dafydd]

So Slashing Grace is a feat that allows you to add you Dex modifier to damage, instead of Str.

On its surface, it looks like the long awaited final piece to making a dex based melee combatant. However, there are segments of the PF population that cry foul when you try to do this. They scream that it only applies to one handed weapons. Why is this an issue? Because those same people will claim that light weapons are not one handed weapons.

This would not matter except that, based on their interpretation, you can no longer use Dex on your attack. Weapon Finesse (a prereq to Slashing Grace) only allows certain weapons to be used with it. These are Light Weapons (tossed out by the light=/=one hand crowd), Rapier (a piercing weapon, thus not allowed with Slashing Grace), Elven Curved Blade (a 2 handed weapon), Spiked Chain (another 2 handed weapon) and the Whip (the ONLY weapon that can use Slashing Grace and Weapon Finesse).

So it comes down to this. Is the feat useless (lets face it, its a wasted feat if you can only use it on a whip) or are the creators trying to tell us that light weapons are one handed weapons with benefits.

[Tarantula]

Equipment wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

This shows pretty clearly that weapons are exclusively light, one handed, or two handed weapons.

I really doubt the intention is to grant the ability to use dex for attack, damage, and dodge to AC. Why bother having any strength at that point?

[Dispari Scuro]

The feat was changed last minute to do something it wasn't originally designed for (Dex to damage). And although the feat is technically available to everyone, it's really meant to be a Swashbuckler feat, who can finesse one-handed weapons.

But yes, the way the feat is now, there are only two weapons you can actually get Dex to attack and damage with, and both are exotic: Whip and Aldori Dueling Sword. This makes the feat EXTREMELY difficult for anyone but a Swashbuckler to use.

I believe a dev said he assumed it was meant to work with light weapons, but admitted he is not a rules guy. We will have to wait for an errata.

In the meantime, you can wait for Fencing Grace to come out, which will allow Dex to attack and damage, but only for rapier.

[SteelDraco]

The developers of the core line are telling you they don't like Dex to damage as a mechanic. It snuck by in the setting rules with Dervish Dance and the Agile weapon property, and thus crept into PFS, and now they have to deal with it.

That's how I've interpreted it, anyway. It's been backed up by a few podcasts I've listened to where they talked about stuff in the Advanced Class Guide, and seemed to be of the opinion that Dex to damage wasn't something they wanted to be commonly available in the game, as Dex already does a lot of stuff.

[Tarantula]

It looks like the feat was designed specifically for swashbucklers to be able to get Dex to attack and Damage and swashbucklers only. Of course, you get that benefit at level 1, so a single level dip isn't exactly a huge penalty.

[kestral287]

Aldori Dueling Sword works.

Slashing Grace also allows the weapon to count as one-handed piercing, meaning the list is much broader for the Swashbuckler, because their Finesse is different-- a Swashbuckler can do Slashing Grace on a katana and have their Weapon Finesse apply to it.

Keep in mind that the feat was explicitly developed for Swashbucklers, so it being (almost) useless for everybody but the Swashbuckler isn't really a failure of design.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Tarantula wrote:

It looks like the feat was designed specifically for swashbucklers to be able to get Dex to attack and Damage and swashbucklers only. Of course, you get that benefit at level 1, so a single level dip isn't exactly a huge penalty.

Swashbuckler is probably the most 1 level dippable class in the game.

Martial proficiencies.
Generally better version of Finesse - worth at least a feat. (which meshes well with slashing grace)
Panache/Deeds (some of the best deeds are level 1)
decent skills
d10HD

The only things it doesn't have are medium/heavy armor proficiencies (moot since you wouldn't be dipping swashbuckler if you weren't dex based) and good saves.

Really - I wish that they didn't get panache/deeds until level 2.

Most of the other good dips require 2 levels to get the most out of it. (ranger/paladin/monk etc)

[CelticMutt]

Tarantula wrote:

This shows pretty clearly that weapons are exclusively light, one handed, or two handed weapons.

I really doubt the intention is to grant the ability to use dex for attack, damage, and dodge to AC. Why bother having any strength at that point?

This is an argument I will never understand. Why does it matter if you can use Dex for everything and dump Str? It's still all going to be build dependent. A two-hander or a sword & boarder in heavy armor are still going to want high strength. Hell, you can't even use high Dex with heavy armor or a lot of medium armors. If it really matters that much, just keep building on what's already there - have feats and abilities meant for big burly men and amazons require strength, and let the agile scrawny types have their Dex stuff as well. Everyone wins.

[Nicos]

Tarantula wrote:

I really doubt the intention is to grant the ability to use dex for attack, damage, and dodge to AC. Why bother having any strength at that point?

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

[Bandw2]

CelticMutt wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

This shows pretty clearly that weapons are exclusively light, one handed, or two handed weapons.

I really doubt the intention is to grant the ability to use dex for attack, damage, and dodge to AC. Why bother having any strength at that point?

This is an argument I will never understand. Why does it matter if you can use Dex for everything and dump Str? It's still all going to be build dependent. A two-hander or a sword & boarder in heavy armor are still going to want high strength. Hell, you can't even use high Dex with heavy armor or a lot of medium armors. If it really matters that much, just keep building on what's already there - have feats and abilities meant for big burly men and amazons require strength, and let the agile scrawny types have their Dex stuff as well. Everyone wins.

because using dexterity for everything is cheaper at the expense of feats and such. basically, it's more SAD, even in big burly armor you can't dump dex or take an AC penalty, but all a dex based character needs is a bag o' holdin' and dump str.

[Nicos]

Bandw2 wrote:

because using dexterity for everything is cheaper at the expense of feats and such. basically, it's more SAD, even in big burly armor you can't dump dex or take an AC penalty, but all a dex based character needs is a bag o' holdin' and dump str.

If that was the balancing problem then the right thing to do was to incorporate it intot he feat. "you add dex to damge but you also add any penalty from low str", or something.

[Bandw2]

Nicos wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

because using dexterity for everything is cheaper at the expense of feats and such. basically, it's more SAD, even in big burly armor you can't dump dex or take an AC penalty, but all a dex based character needs is a bag o' holdin' and dump str.

If that was the balancing problem then the right thing to do was to incorporate it intot he feat. "you add dex to damge but you also add any penalty from low str", or something.

then you potentially have a feat that applies more negatives to a character, a better option is a str requirement of 10. :/

13 dex, 3 str kobold, would be funny to play with this feat you suggest though.

[Tarantula]

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

[Umbranus]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

It looks like the feat was designed specifically for swashbucklers to be able to get Dex to attack and Damage and swashbucklers only. Of course, you get that benefit at level 1, so a single level dip isn't exactly a huge penalty.

Swashbuckler is probably the most 1 level dippable class in the game.

Martial proficiencies.
Generally better version of Finesse - worth at least a feat. (which meshes well with slashing grace)
Panache/Deeds (some of the best deeds are level 1)
decent skills
d10HD

The only things it doesn't have are medium/heavy armor proficiencies (moot since you wouldn't be dipping swashbuckler if you weren't dex based) and good saves.

Really - I wish that they didn't get panache/deeds until level 2.

Most of the other good dips require 2 levels to get the most out of it. (ranger/paladin/monk etc)

I think a lot of people will dip daring champion instead. He doesn't get panache and deeds (which are a concept not everyone likes) but challenge, medium armor, order, tactician. IMO a worthy trade-off for deeds and panache.

[Sushewakka]

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

You don't get to add str times 1.5 to finesse weapons. Power Attack scales 1:2 instead of 1:3 with finesse weapons.

[blackbloodtroll]

Did I miss the rules question?

[shroudb]

Sushewakka wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

You don't get to add str times 1.5 to finesse weapons. Power Attack scales 1:2 ins

tead of 1:3 with finesse weapons.

Actually I was looking at this today for a pirate NPC.

Slashing grace simply says that you use Dex instead of str.

Wouldn't that mean that it deals 1.5x my Dex if I twohand the cutlass?

(Omg an actual rules question in this thread)

[Dead Phoenix]

shroudb wrote:

Sushewakka wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

You don't get to add str times 1.5 to finesse weapons. Power Attack scales 1:2 ins

tead of 1:3 with finesse weapons.

Actually I was looking at this today for a pirate NPC.

Slashing grace simply says that you use Dex instead of str.

Wouldn't that mean that it deals 1.5x my Dex if I twohand the cutlass?

(Omg an actual rules question in this thread)

No, slashing grace specifies that you must have the weapon in one hand, as do several class features for swashbuckler and daring champion, the only classes who can use SG with a cutlass, meaning even if you could do it, you be screwing yourself over anyways.

[Sushewakka]

shroudb wrote:

Sushewakka wrote:

You don't get to add str times 1.5 to finesse weapons. Power Attack scales 1:2 ins

tead of 1:3 with finesse weapons.

Actually I was looking at this today for a pirate NPC.

Slashing grace simply says that you use Dex instead of str.

Wouldn't that mean that it deals 1.5x my Dex if I twohand the cutlass?

(Omg an actual rules question in this thread)

No, it doesn't, because of the bolded part in the following quote:

"Slashing Grace (Combat)" wrote:

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

EDIT: Darn, Ninja'd

[shroudb]

Ahh nice, I knew I wasnt seeing something

[Matthew Downie]

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

There are also precedents for Dex-to-damage, like the Agile weapon property and Dervish Dance.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

There are also precedents for Dex-to-damage, like the Agile weapon property and Dervish Dance.

Yes - but slashing grace lets you get full dex to damage with both main & off hands when combined with double slice. That couldn't be done before.

[Snorter]

Where are people getting the idea that only a few weapons can be used?

The feat only specifies it must be a one-handed weapon, being used in one hand.

Slashing Grace (Combat) wrote:

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Where is it stated that light finessable weapons used in one hand don't count as one-handed weapons?

Dagger and sickle are both simple weapons, both are slashing weapons, both are light weapons, and both are used in one hand.
Boarding axe, throwing axe, cat'o'nine tails, dogslicer, gladius, handaxe, kukri are all martial weapons, all are slashing weapons, all are light weapons, and all are used in one hand.

'Light' and 'one-handed' are not 'either/or' qualities.
A weapon can be both, surely?

[thejeff]

Snorter wrote:

Where are people getting the idea that only a few weapons can be used?

The feat only specifies it must be a one-handed weapon, being used in one hand.

Slashing Grace (Combat) wrote:

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Where is it stated that light finessable weapons used in one hand don't count as one-handed weapons?

Dagger and sickle are both slashing weapons, and light weapons, and both are used in one hand.
'Light' and 'one-handed' are not 'either/or' qualities.
A weapon can be both, surely?

As Tarantula said in the second post, they're different categories.

Equipment wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

[shroudb]

Snorter wrote:

Where are people getting the idea that only a few weapons can be used?

The feat only specifies it must be a one-handed weapon, being used in one hand.

Slashing Grace (Combat) wrote:

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Where is it stated that light finessable weapons used in one hand don't count as one-handed weapons?

Dagger and sickle are both slashing weapons, and light weapons, and both are used in one hand.
'Light' and 'one-handed' are not 'either/or' qualities.
A weapon can be both, surely?

You can look at ANY weapon table.

They are listed separately.
If light were one handed, then it would be a subcategory, and no such thing exist.

[Snorter]

That's taking things to a level of such staggering pedantry, that I don't know what to say.

"That light weapon, that you're using with such Finesse? You aren't allowed to use it Gracefully, because it isn't heavy enough."

[Sniggevert]

Snorter wrote:

That's taking things to a level of such staggering pedantry, that I don't know what to say.

Take a look at the rules for Spell Combat on the Magus for how they word things if they mean to allow both light and one handed weapons to work vs. just one handed weapons.

Or the difference between grappled rules and swallowed whole and what type of weapons can be used.

There are 3 distinct categories of weapons. When they choose to only list 1 of the 3 as working with an ability, I assume they mean the other 2 types don't work with the ability...

[Bandw2]

Snorter wrote:

That's taking things to a level of such staggering pedantry, that I don't know what to say.

well, it is general consensus that light weapons are not in fact, one-handed. maybe they only need a thumb and 2 fingers or something. :P

[Snorter]

I assume, when the context of the conversation is regarding weapons that can be used in an agile, finessable, graceful, dextrous combat style, that they meant all slashing weapons that can be wielded in one hand.
Which includes slashing weapons from the 'light weapons that are by definition almost exclusively used in one hand'' category, and slashing weapons from the second 'one-handed weapons that are too heavy to count as light' category.
Because to do otherwise would make no sense.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Snorter wrote:

That's taking things to a level of such staggering pedantry, that I don't know what to say.

"That light weapon, that you're using with such Finesse? You aren't allowed to use it Gracefully, because it isn't heavy enough."

It's a balance factor. As it stands, the only way to get slashing grace with your off-hand is to dip into swashbuckler & use sawtoothed sabres.

Edit: The only way to do so without extra TWF penalties.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Snorter wrote:

I assume, when the context of the conversation is regarding weapons that can be used in an agile, finessable, graceful, dextrous combat style, that they meant all weapons of weights up to and including the second category.

Because to do otherwise would make no sense.

You assume wrongly.

[thejeff]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Snorter wrote:

I assume, when the context of the conversation is regarding weapons that can be used in an agile, finessable, graceful, dextrous combat style, that they meant all weapons of weights up to and including the second category.

Because to do otherwise would make no sense.

You assume wrongly.

Which is partly why people have a problem with the feat. It doesn't make sense. It's obviously possible the general understanding of the intent is wrong, but it's definitely in-line with other Paizo usage. Which tends to be quite pedantic.

[Snorter]

So, to make a pair of daggers more graceful, you have to strap rocks to them?

Got it.

[shroudb]

Snorter wrote:

So, to make a pair of daggers more graceful, you have to strap rocks to them?

Got it.

Stop trying to make sense of it.

To put it simply why you shouldn't:

There is currently a feat that allows you to use dex with bastard swoird, but not dex with daggers.

Is it stupid? Yeah.

Even paizo themselves said something along the lines of "we realized that it was weird, and so to fiux this we are introducing Fencing Grace (another feat) in the next book"

BTW, with fencing grace, you will still be unable to apply dex to damage with p.e. daggers...

[Charon's Little Helper]

Snorter wrote:

So, to make a pair of daggers more graceful, you have to strap rocks to them?

Got it.

Stop trying to apply real life logic. Applying dex to damage at all is stupid in real life. (especially when it's not even precision damage with all the negatives therein)

It makes sense in game logic.

This is a game.

Done.

[claudekennilol]

Looks like you took my "what dex weapons can I use for my magus" thread and turned it into another question. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad or anything. I'm just saying.

[Piccolo Taphodarian]

Wow. People are nitpicking when it is obvious they meant a "weapon used in one hand." They use longsword in the example in the feat.

I would allow it with any slashing weapon useable in one hand whether finessable or not.

[claudekennilol]

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:

Wow. People are nitpicking when it is obvious they meant a "weapon used in one hand." They use longsword in the example in the feat.

I would allow it with any slashing weapon useable in one hand whether finessable or not.

A longsword is specifically a one-handed weapon, which is verbatim defined in the rules as not a light weapon and verbatim called out in this feat.

edit: if they had used a sickle as an example then it would matter. However they did not, so the rules are clear.

[Sniggevert]

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:

Wow. People are nitpicking when it is obvious they meant a "weapon used in one hand." They use longsword in the example in the feat.

I would allow it with any slashing weapon useable in one hand whether finessable or not.

Wow. And here I thought it was obvious that when they said "one handed slashing weapon" they meant a weapon that did slashing damage that was of the defined "one handed" type...since that would be, you know, a one handed slashing weapon.

[ElementalXX]

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

So they give Cha to saves for all freaking oracles and thats "totally fine" but when people asked for good fort saves for swashbucklers or a charisma to saves for swashbuckler, they said "nope thats broken"

They nerf crane wing and give us sacred geometry.

I think the message is really clear

[thejeff]

ElementalXX wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

So they give Cha to saves for all freaking oracles and thats "totally fine" but when people asked for good fort saves for swashbucklers or a charisma to saves for swashbuckler, they said "nope thats broken"

And don't forget that the Oracle benefits far more from Cha to saves than a swashbuckler would, or even than a paladin does. A casting focused oracle at least, since they're far more SAD.

[BigDTBone]

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:

Wow. People are nitpicking when it is obvious they meant a "weapon used in one hand." They use longsword in the example in the feat.

I would allow it with any slashing weapon useable in one hand whether finessable or not.

Why would the game make a distinction between light and one-handed weapons if it just intended to ignore that distinction (and the language of that distinction) as a matter-of- course? More likely that the designers meant what they wrote, exactly as they wrote it.

Even if they didn't, those are the rules. The rules if pathfinder are steeped in pedantry.

[BigDTBone]

thejeff wrote:

ElementalXX wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

So they give Cha to saves for all freaking oracles and thats "totally fine" but when people asked for good fort saves for swashbucklers or a charisma to saves for swashbuckler, they said "nope thats broken"

And don't forget that the Oracle benefits far more from Cha to saves than a swashbuckler would, or even than a paladin does. A casting focused oracle at least, since they're far more SAD.

Well, the oracle is the Paizo full caster, they have a vested interest in giving it the best options. The only other one is also a toy-hog and it's brand new. The swashbuckler is someone else's bath water. They couldn't even give it a unique name, they made it share with a rogue archetype.

[Doombringer the DM]

thejeff wrote:

ElementalXX wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

So they give Cha to saves for all freaking oracles and thats "totally fine" but when people asked for good fort saves for swashbucklers or a charisma to saves for swashbuckler, they said "nope thats broken"

And don't forget that the Oracle benefits far more from Cha to saves than a swashbuckler would, or even than a paladin does. A casting focused oracle at least, since they're far more SAD.

Yup, yup. Unlike Oracles, Paladins, especially ones that want to be good at combat need:

Strength,
Dexterity
Constitution
...
Oh right, AND charisma. A caster like an oracle only really needs one of those (charisma) to function. With a few revelations replacing dex for charisma when it comes to AC AND a feat that gives it a charisma bonus to saves... that's just pushing it.

[Nicos]

thejeff wrote:

ElementalXX wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

A mithril full-plate fighter could get up to a +7 dex bonus from armor training and mithril. With feats like these, he can also be having the +7 to hit and +7 for damage as well. Strength effectively becomes irrelevant.

So they give Cha to saves for all freaking oracles and thats "totally fine" but when people asked for good fort saves for swashbucklers or a charisma to saves for swashbuckler, they said "nope thats broken"

And don't forget that the Oracle benefits far more from Cha to saves than a swashbuckler would, or even than a paladin does. A casting focused oracle at least, since they're far more SAD.

Cha to saves and AC, CMD, and initiative.

[Nicos]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Nicos wrote:

There is a mixed message when in the same book a single feat allow Oracles to add his cha bonus to all saves.

Paladins also add CHA to all saves as a class ability. There is precedent there.

There are also precedents for Dex-to-damage, like the Agile weapon property and Dervish Dance.

+1.

It is not like those optins had made str irrelevant. Not even for magus the nes that most benefit from dervish dance.

[Dafydd]

Quote:

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

So a light weapon is a weapon that

A) Used in one hand
B) Easier to use in the off hand (at half STR bonus but with less penalties)
C) Can be used in grapple
D) Can be used in 2 hands (with no benefits)
E) Covers all Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks

Quote:

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

So a One Handed weapon is a weapon that

A) Used in one hand
B) Use-able in off hand (with large penalties)
C) Can be used in 2 hands (giving 1.5 STR bonus to damage)

Quote:

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon

And a 2 Handed weapon is a weapon that

A) Must be used in 2 hands, gaining 1.5 STR bonus to damage

My point in posting this question was to hope to get a REAL ruling on do you use 1 hand with a light weapon. By my reading, a light weapon IS a one handed weapon that can be used in a grapple. However, as had been made obvious by many posters, simple logic like this is rare. (not sure how those paladins and oracles talked their way into the discussion, dam their high charisma)

[Sniggevert]

Dafydd wrote:

My point in posting this question was to hope to get a REAL ruling on do you use 1 hand with a light weapon. By my reading, a light weapon IS a one handed weapon that can be used in a grapple. However, as had been made obvious by many posters, simple logic like this is rare. (not sure...

Obviously a light weapon can be used in a grapple...

PRD wrote:

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

A light weapon does not require two hands to use, and is called out as being usable just like one-handed weapons are.

Unlike Slashing Grace, if you use a one-handed weapon, it doesn't even have to be a slashing weapon.

Again, if they wanted Slashing Grace to include light weapons, they would call it out just like they did with the Grapple rules and the Magus' Spell Combat rules. Both places are where they're trying to limit folks to using weapons wielded in one hand, but not totally limiting it to only one handed weapons like Slashing Grace is doing.

[Rub-Eta]

Slashing Grace was made for the Swashbuckler. See Swashbuckler Finesse.

Light weapons are light weapons, not one-handed such as longsword. Just like how a light weapon won't give you 1,5x damage when wielding it with both hands.

[Dafydd]

If someone asks you to pass them the blue ball, but the only balls you see are a red ball and a ball that is blue with polka dots, do you call back that there is no blue ball? I can not stand with such reasoning as it eliminates common sense.