PFS and Flaming Sphere


Rules Questions


In PFS does Flaming Sphere affect swarms?

While there's regular back and forths on the issue every 7 or 8 months on the regular rules forums I'm honestly just curious what the PFS stance is.


this is just a regular rules question with "in pfs" tacked on. There is no pfs stance. PFS has a bunch of homerules for some things (critters,crafting, a few oracle revelations) , but this isn't one of them. PFS doesn't maintain a library of more official than you can get elsewhere clarifications.

Personally I don't see any argument, at all, as to why it would not affect swarms.

Sczarni

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Why wouldnt it? It affects a square and doesn't need a target... The swrm does get a reflex save, though.

Scarab Sages

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Flaming Sphere does not target a specific number of creatures. The only rule for spells vs. a swarm is the following:

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

So yes, roll that big ball of fire right over the swarm and make lunch.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
...

If you have a problem with me posting here report my post as in the wrong forum. If the moderators agree awesome, have a cookie, I'll be eating crow.

Carla the Profane wrote:
Why wouldnt it? It affects a square and doesn't need a target... The swrm does get a reflex save, though.
WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:

Flaming Sphere does not target a specific number of creatures. The only rule for spells vs. a swarm is the following:

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

So yes, roll that big ball of fire right over the swarm and make lunch.

Thanks guys. I think that answers my question that in PFS the general consensus hasn't changed. It's not like swarms are a dime a dozen but the place I've encountered them (by far) the most is in PFS games (or more specifically in groups that run things that are premade, which for me is PFS) so it is the only context I hugely care about the issue.

There's a discussion over on the rules forum right now with people arguing that if it rolls into a square with multiple creatures the text only says 'a' creature so by RAW it's not AoE it's single target. I've seen the question come up there before but I'd never really seen that stance be defended. Wanted to know if it is still a solid taken for granted thing or could it be a table by table thing which one day might bite me (with 1,000 little fangs as we're talking swarms) and it's something I should ask a GM just to be safe before I find myself covered in bats, spiders, or Erastil knows what else when I should have loaded Gust of Wind if the party was depending on me to help with that contingency.

Sczarni

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ShoulderPatch wrote:
If you have a problem with me posting here report my post as in the wrong forum.

As per your request, I have flagged your original post.

BNW's response isn't an uncommon answer, he just beat the rest of us to it. Your question is not specific to the PFS campaign and was posted in the wrong forum, so we're trying to help you out by flagging it to be moved to the appropriate location.

Every day, several times a day, people come here with general rules questions, expecting to find some sort of "more official" answer to their questions than can be found in the actual Rules Questions forum. This is an erroneous belief. PFS runs off of the PFRPG ruleset. 99 times out of 100, the answer to any particular question will be "What would Pathfinder do?".

PFS posters aren't generally "rules guys", either. With the exception of a handful of us (BNW and I included) most PFSers never step foot in the Rules Forum (or many other forums at all). Asking here simply won't get you the answer you're looking for, won't generate the discussion you're looking for, and won't be answered in the timeframe you're looking for.

Plus, it bugs the moderators, who a dozen times a day have to move your post from one forum to the next, when you could have just done it right from the start.

So, next time, just use the Rules Questions forum, please =).


Shoulder patch wrote:
If you have a problem with me posting here report my post as in the wrong forum. If the moderators agree awesome, have a cookie, I'll be eating crow.

Sorry. I try smiling more when i post, but the teeth tend to just send people running...

I don't really have a problem with it, but the moderators do, and I already cost them enough time as it is....

Sczarni

Plus, as a wolf, he's the one more likely to be eating crows.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
Plus, as a wolf, he's the one more likely to be eating crows.

That'd be a sight, a wolf catching a crow... not to say that's impossible...

As to the OP, wrong place, but the spell like all have said doesn't target a specific thing, just anything occupying the same space as the sphere...


When I worked at a wolf center in idaho, there were an awful lot of dead crows in the enclosure- The crows/ravens would come down to snack on the wolves leftovers and apparently get pounced on.

NONE of them were eaten: If a turkey died in there there was just a circular ring of feathers. Crows? Body was fully intact. Crows taste bad even to critters that consider a week under ground just a little extra special sauce. Someone was considering isolating the oil to spray onto cattle as a wolf deterrent.

The Exchange

rules stuff:

does this mean that the sphere will require two people in the same square to roll a save? like, if I hit a Witch with it, her familiar would also need to make a save? or if I roll it into a square with two PCs in it, they both need to make a save? Just wondering....

Can I put two or more spheres in the same square?

the spell does not list an Area, but then it doesn't list a Target either... so would it effect swarms? I would think so... but then I think you should be able to do a lot of things that the rules say you can't.

guess this will just continue being one of those YMMV things in the rules...


Nosig wrote:
the spell does not list an Area

Effect 5-ft.-diameter sphere . Its only "not an area" because its mobile and under the effect line, but a 5 foot sphere is an area you can work with.

The Exchange

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nosig wrote:
the spell does not list an Area
Effect 5-ft.-diameter sphere . Its only "not an area" because its mobile and under the effect line, but a 5 foot sphere is an area you can work with.

YMMV.

Which is why this thread should be over on the Rules Board... like you said.


Debatable whether Flaming Sphere gets the +50% damage boost (Area spells per the rules - though I agree with BNW). Not really debatable that its not limited to a single creature, and thus works on swarms.


any creature within the square, tells me it is an area of effect for that square. If two ratfolk shared a square they would both need to make a save.

The Exchange

Finlanderboy wrote:
any creature within the square, tells me it is an area of effect for that square. If two ratfolk shared a square they would both need to make a save.

but the spell doesn't say "any creature within the square"... it says, "...if it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature,..."

I would think that as a swarm is considered for most things to be a creature - that the sphere would stop moving when it encountered any part of the swarm, and thus wouldn't encounter any creature that was also in the square with the swarm... but that is just my opinion.


Thats kind of silly. The rules are written assuming one creature in a square. If you have exceptions to that, weird things happen.

Sovereign Court

I've never had any doubt; it's a ball of fire that'll heat up everyone in that square. That clearly makes it an area attack that works nicely against swarms.

Until I saw this discussion I thought everyone thought the same thing.

Silver Crusade

You know, I always thought of this as a single target spell before this thread. But you guys are right - it does affect an area. And I'd assume it affects all creatures in a square equally - even if there's a swarm of them.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There seem to be two rules questions at play here:
1. Does a swarm generally count as a single creature for the purpose of spells and abilities?
2. How does Flaming Sphere interact with multiple creatures inhabiting the same square?

Regarding #1, the text of the Creature Types section seems to indicate that Swarms are considered single creatures in the context of the rules. Swarm is a creature type applied to the larger collection of things and not to each individual organism in the swarm. Creature types are applied to individual creatures, and therefore the overall collection with Swarm as a creature type is almost certainly considered a single creature.
http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html

Regarding #2, I suspect there just needs to be some sort of GM decision as to whether a creature is likely to be rolled up on by a spongy 5' ball of fire. That seems pretty likely if there's two or more medium-sized creatures hanging out at ground level in a 5' square area.

I haven't seen a GM rule (or ruled myself) that small creatures stowed or hidden in a larger character's gear would be directly affected, but if you catch on fire I bet they'd get burned.


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Red wine. In case you were wondering.

Sovereign Court

Well, the ball is almost as big as the square. It's a bit of a miracle that it doesn't push the creature out.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Red wine. In case you were wondering.

Can't talk. Enjoying Corvus w/ teriyaki sauce.

Grand Lodge

So, if I were ruling it, I would say yes damages swarm, no +50% bonus damage.

Dark Archive

The way I have run it and surprisingly seen it run is that anything in that square makes a save or gets burned and that if an enemy is in the square on the casters turn, the caster does not need to use a move action to force the save again. Flaming spheres keep things mobile.

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