Dragon Style
While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Seems pretty straight forward but when combined with Dragon's Ferocity do issues arise.
I am not asking if those 2 stack because from what I can find in the forums it does. My question is does that initial attack also add your str mod just from attacking? Does the first attack look like (dice+1str+1.5str+0.5str) with all additional attacks looking like (dice+1str+0.5str) if not then by the wording of the feats they would look like this (dice+1.5str+0.5str) with all additonal attacks looking like (dice+0.5str) assuming the same words mean the same thing.
The 1.5str for the first attack should be instead of the normal 1.0str
Is that just the common view or actual ruling? The issue I have is that in both feats its says you add the bonus. In neither feat does it say in place of which is what you are saying it is. The forums seem to agree that in the case of Ferocity add means add and it stacks so why dies it mean in place of for Dragon Style?
It functions like two-handing a weapon on your first attack, meaning you add Strength and a half. Ferocity ups that to double Strength on the first attack, instead, then act as though two-handing all your other attacks.
Ok I am wondering where y'all are getting that ruling from. Because if that is how the language of the feat is to be understood then Ferocity makes all your attacks at only 0.5str bonus. Both feats say you can ADD the bonus neither say IN PLACE OF. So why is it that Style ADD means IN PLACE OF and in Ferocity ADD means ADD?
Here is what I thought it was (Dice + 2.o str + Str(For all other attacks that follow)) I don't believe Monks have a offhand so you add full strength)
It was never an issue of offhand weapon in to me it was just the issue that DF adds .05 str and DS adds 1.5 str. Both of the feats say you add the bonus. And the forums agree that those stack I just want to know what happens to the original str bonus and why the meaning of add changes between 2 feats in a change according to Uranus and Nocte ex Mortis.
Oh I see, Nope your right it would be Strx3 As you have full strength, then you add 1.5 str then with the second feat add another .5 to it. So it would be Str 1.0+Str 1.5+Str 0.5=str3.0
No, no it wouldn't.
Dragon Style lets you get Str 1.5 on the first hit.
Dragon Ferocity then adds another .5 Str to ALL hits. 2x Str on the first hit, 1.5x on subsequent hits.
In no way do they add up to 3.
So do you not use your Str with your primary hand?
Because I thought it was 1d6+Str for Damage on an unarmed strike, for example the monk moves more then 5 ft and has to punch a dude in the throat. Dragon Style ADDS 1.5. Str so Str +1.5 would be 2.5 normal Strngth 1.0 is base strength. Then add a .5 onto that and it goes from 2.5 to 3.0
Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Now if it said you replace it with 1.5 you would be correct, but it ADDs onto the normal Str to damage.
Then what happens to your original str bonus? The feat clearly says ADD which means ADD not REPLACE which is what you are arguing it does. You clearly stated that with Ferocity thewords mean what the do so why does the meaning change in the case of Dragon Style? It lacks continuity to say that the player can ADD 1.5 str to damage but we me mean it REPLACES the original 1x and then in the next feat say ADD 0.5str and then genuinely mean ADD
Just Combo Dragon Style and Ferocity with Pummeling Style and Later Pummeling Charge and watch the baddies explode on impact.
It's perfectly in line with the rest of the rules.
It says "You can add 1 1/2 times your Str bonus on the damage roll". It does not say you add 1.5 in addition to your normal Str (in fact, it says that normally you add 1x, meaning this IS a replacement). It simply says you add 1.5x Str to your first attack.
You are the only two people I know of unclear on this fact.
to all who say to ADD ana ADDITIONAL 1.5:
read p.e. double slice feat:
Quote: Double Slice (Combat)
Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.
it has the EXACT SAME WORDING. and then it explains that it is INSTEAD.
same thing for Dragon style.
it is: 1.5str INSTEAD of 1
One, because English is not a precise language. Two, Dragon Style uses the same wording as two-handing a weapon, specifically where it says you may add one and a half times your Strength modifier to all attacks made with the weapon. So, do you get to add 2.5x your Strength when two-handing a weapon? No, you don't. What makes you think you would with Dragon Style?
Straight from the rulebook:
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
Does Dragon Style have that same exception written it it like double slice does? I have an app on my phone for it and it doesn't seem to now if it does have that exception like double slice does then I can just except an incomplete entry on the app but I don't see the Normal on there like double slice has
Oakbreaker wrote: Does Dragon Style have that same exception written it it like double slice does? I have an app on my phone for it and it doesn't seem to now if it does have that exception like double slice does then I can just except an incomplete entry on the app but I don't see the Normal on there like double slice has double slice has 0 exceptions.
the rules of it say only:
Quote: Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon. the rest is what happens NORMALLY (it isn't "special: blahblahblah" it is "normal: blah blah blah"
the same "normal: your fists do only your STR damage applies" because that's what fists do normally.
And twohanding a weapon its says instead of and isn't a feat double slice has the normal which explains exception to it and gives a why the app I have doesn't list that same exception with dragon style
Oakbreaker wrote: And twohanding a weapon its says instead of and isn't a feat double slice has the normal which explains exception to it and gives a why the app I have doesn't list that same exception with dragon style double slice HAS NO EXCEPTION.
You can say that "normally you do only your trength damage with unarmed strikes" (because that is the normal) here now it has an exception too?
Some feats have "special: does Y" under their rules. those are the exceptions.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Normal: You cannot charge or run through difficult terrain, and you cannot charge through a square that contains an ally. With an unarmed strike, you usually add your Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Now maybe I am blind but I dont see this saying it replaces. It does not call out a specific replacing mechanic. It said you can ADD and that usually you just add your Str. Nothing in this wording IMPLIES or STATES that you use the 1.5 instead of.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
That shows that the NORMAL of using Two Handed is using 1.5 str. Not the same thing
Especially interesting: Would you get the 1-3-ratio for Power Attack for iterative attacks if you have Dragon Style AND Dragon Ferocity?
To the OP:
First Attack: Base damage dice + 1.5x Str + 0.5x Str.
NOT: +1x Str + 1.5x Str + 0.5x Str
NOT: +2x Str
NOT: +3x Str
The difference between 1.5+0.5 and 2.0 is obvious with STR 20: 9 vs. 10 bonus to damage.
Harrow of Hightower wrote: Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Normal: You cannot charge or run through difficult terrain, and you cannot charge through a square that contains an ally. With an unarmed strike, you usually add your Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Now maybe I am blind but I dont see this saying it replaces. It does not call out a specific replacing mechanic. It said you can ADD and that usually you just add your Str. Nothing in this wording IMPLIES or STATES that you use the 1.5 instead of.
Quote:
PFS Legal Double Slice (Combat)
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 122 (Amazon)
Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand
emphasis mine.
double slice has the EXACT SAME WORDING. and the EXACT SAME "NORMAL"
double slice replaces. so dragon style also replaces.
Double slice mentions in the bottom off the feat that you normally only add 1/2 making the replacement clear...is there a place that has that same sort of listing on dragon style? Again my app doesn't so if the entry is just incomplete I would like to know
Oakbreaker wrote: Double slice mentions in the bottom off the feat that you normally only add 1/2 making the replacement clear...is there a place that has that same sort of listing on dragon style? Again my app doesn't so if the entry is just incomplete I would like to know yes, look above
Ok thank you I will put that in my review for the app that the feat description is incomplete that little line clears up all of my issue
Actually Shroudb it does not have the EXACT SAME WORDING so you by default are a liar so maybe be careful with the wording you choose.
The key difference there is normally and usually mean mostly the same thing, but are in fact different words. Try again next time.
Now I understand where you are coming from. My point is that you are using another feat that has no connection to this feat to try and prove this feat does what that feat does, but it doesn't but it does. You can more easily explain this without sounding like you are shouting at someone.
You are saying that all other feats that add 1.5 Str replace, so by default this one must also default to this set up. And you may very well be right. But the wording does not show this, and if you must search through other feats to figure out how this feat works, then the default is not established and really it should have not been written in this way.
But because it says words like Add rather then replace one can validly argue this side of the debate.
Now Add is short for Addition, or Addition to. So the feat states it you in addition to your Str add 1 1/2 str to the first blow. Now 1+1 1/2 is 2 1/2. This is simply how numbers work.
Now Double slice is funny in that the wording it more clear. It says you add your strength which is just showing what your new normal is with your off hand. But Dragon Style says Further, you can add. Meaning you Add in addition too. Further is a tricky word as it means "in addition; moreover"
In addition, you add implies adding the 1 1/2 Str in addition to the normal Str bonus. Do you see why we can see this meaning this and not just the default?
Harrow of Hightower wrote: Actually Shroudb it does not have the EXACT SAME WORDING so you by default are a liar so maybe be careful with the wording you choose.
The key difference there is normally and usually mean mostly the same thing, but are in fact different words. Try again next time.
Now I understand where you are coming from. My point is that you are using another feat that has no connection to this feat to try and prove this feat does what that feat does, but it doesn't but it does. You can more easily explain this without sounding like you are shouting at someone.
You are saying that all other feats that add 1.5 Str replace, so by default this one must also default to this set up. And you may very well be right. But the wording does not show this, and if you must search through other feats to figure out how this feat works, then the default is not established and really it should have not been written in this way.
But because it says words like Add rather then replace one can validly argue this side of the debate.
Now Add is short for Addition, or Addition to. So the feat states it you in addition to your Str add 1 1/2 str to the first blow. Now 1+1 1/2 is 2 1/2. This is simply how numbers work.
Now Double slice is funny in that the wording it more clear. It says you add your strength which is just showing what your new normal is with your off hand. But Dragon Style says Further, you can add. Meaning you Add in addition too. Further is a tricky word as it means "in addition; moreover"
In addition, you add implies adding the 1 1/2 Str in addition to the normal Str bonus. Do you see why we can see this meaning this and not just the default?
personal insults will do you little good.
you asked in the rules forum
the rules are clear, based on precedence (and hence why i linked double slice)
for a feat that does the same thing: increases your STR multiplier on specific occasion.
the two feats use the same wording, because in this particular case, usually=normal
you won't find a pfs DM to say otherwise.
now, if you want to houserule it for your own game, that's your right, but as RAW, and RAI, Dragon style replaces and not adds.
take it or leave it.
bye and thank you for your input.
And bloody hell Harrowing of Hightower has a point. The wording is very similar but has some key differences. Now whether or not that's enough of a difference to say it works as we both are questioning is up in the air but it is there and if nothing else proven to be worth asking.
Rynjin wrote: No, no it wouldn't.
Dragon Style lets you get Str 1.5 on the first hit.
Dragon Ferocity then adds another .5 Str to ALL hits. 2x Str on the first hit, 1.5x on subsequent hits.
In no way do they add up to 3.
Is it +2str on the first attack or +1.5+0.5str? The difference is important in the case of uneven str bonuses.
I read it as +1.5+0.5 because while it stacks there are 2 different sources
The two feats are worded very differently.
Dragon style wrote: Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round. This doesn't add to your normal strength bonus, it overlaps it at best, or more accurately replaces it. It uses the same language as 2 handed weapon rules. There is no 'bonus' or 'in addition to' type wording.
2handed damage wrote: Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands. Dragon ferocity wrote: you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus . This is specifically called out as an untyped bonus, so adds to your normal strength bonus.
so this means:
1st Attack = dice +1.5 str, +0.5 str
Later attacks = dice +1 str +0.5 str
The "add" in dragon style is referring to adding strength damage to the base weapon damage dice, not adding on top of already existing strength bonus.
Compare to Dragon Ferocity:
"Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus."
Dragon ferocity explicitly calls out a bonus damage equal to half your strength bonus, not a change in the multiplier you are allowed to add.
So, for examples, take a fighter with a +3 strength modifier.
Normal unarmed strike: 1d6 + 1.0x Str Mod (3)
Dragon style first unarmed strike: 1d6 + 1.5x Str Mod (4)
Dragon ferocity and dragon style first unarmed strike: 1d6 + 1.5x Str Mod (4) + Bonus damage ½x str mod (1)
Dragon ferocity unarmed strike not first: 1d6 + 1.0x Str Mod (3) + Bonus damage ½ str mod (1)
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