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Something along these lines could definitely help the customization-starved. :o
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I think the issue is twofold...
First and most importantly, most of this need is already served by having way more base forms than the ones we already have. We don't need a sub-type for a nonliving' eidolon, we're going to have Constructs! The chances that there won't be a base type that's a reasonable fit for more or less any setting appropriate Eidolon is... low.
Second, both examples here are ones that seem like vehicles for passing prohibited abilities to creatures at a low level - which either don't address the non-combat issues with the ability (flight usable by something more intelligent and capable than an animal is a serious plot-breaking issue early on) or the inherent balance issues with the ability (immunities are essentially impossible to balance for players - they're useless 90% of the time when they don't apply, and completely overpowered the other 10% when they do apply).
I don't mind more customization options in general, but there's a direct association between the things people want and problematic abilities that are restricted in availability for good reason in PF2E.
first, these are meant for more broad options that could apply to many types of eidolons, but not all eidolons of a certain type. A beast Eidolon in the form of a bird or a dragon eidolon in the form of a young gold dragon would thematically have flight
Point of Order - My winged, flying Angel does not need a Fly speed to be valid as it currently stands.
It simply gains no mechanical benefits for that description.
A system like this essentially forces Eidolons back into boxes where they "have to have" abilities to represent their cosmetic attributes.
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Flight isnt a purely cosmetic aspect of Angels its pretty core to their concept, messengers of the gods, travellers speaking all the languages, wings as a symbolism of their connection with the heavens and flight to reach those heavens. An angels who can't fly is crippled, one without wings has fallen.
Or maybe they're limited by the unorthodox nature of their bond with a Summoner?
Its not a stretch to describe why your Eidolon can't yet fly non-stop at will - OR to just assume that only happens off screen when its mechanically irrelevant.
A balanced game means making concessions and rolling with it.
Reflavoring just doesn't work for the core of their idea and character.
It can though.
Plenty of video games have examples of flying creatures that exist only at ground level, and don't include 'Z axis movement' as part of their ability set - most MMOs, for example.
Yeah, I know people don't want to do 'video games' here - but again, actual flight is a prohibited ability for characters with player character level capabilities until after a certain level. That's part of balancing the game - and part of enjoying a balanced game is rolling with the limitations instead of struggling against them.
They are though. If an eidolon and a familiar got in a fight, it would be a blowout, goodbye familiar. The Eidolon is bigger, stronger, and tougher than a familiar
Love the idea. Hate the examples. Flying is a no go for now, but this would in my opinion be a better way to make your eidolon unique instead of dragon or something similar. But that also means nerfing the eidolon as an à la carte buffet means that it should be weaker than regular articles that require investment.
They are though. If an eidolon and a familiar got in a fight, it would be a blowout, goodbye familiar. The Eidolon is bigger, stronger, and tougher than a familiarNot if the fights in the air
I mean, can familiars make attacks? Its still the Eidolons clear victory.
They are though. If an eidolon and a familiar got in a fight, it would be a blowout, goodbye familiar. The Eidolon is bigger, stronger, and tougher than a familiarNot if the fights in the air
If you take into account usability and utility in the air yeahhh kinda. But if he can fly the eidolon kind of breaks the minimum 11 level for flight on a PC.
They are though. If an eidolon and a familiar got in a fight, it would be a blowout, goodbye familiar. The Eidolon is bigger, stronger, and tougher than a familiarNot if the fights in the air
If the eidolon had to ready an attack each time to have a chance to attack, or even just throw rocks every turn, they'd still win.
Similarly, I like the concept, but hate the examples.
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Just mentioning, if there's a flight option, the restrictions on riding it should be universal and not based on size. I don't want the upcoming tiny-size ancestries to be broken at level one by a flight plus archery build.
And, while Paizo will clean things ilup if this is adopted by Paizo, precision damage immunity shouldn't be available. It's not a deal-breaker for any concept, and it's very unbalancing in terms of effect- it wrecks Rogues, Investigators, and Swashbucklers without touching other classes.
Love the idea. Hate the examples. Flying is a no go for now, but this would in my opinion be a better way to make your eidolon unique instead of dragon or something similar. But that also means nerfing the eidolon as an à la carte buffet means that it should be weaker than regular articles that require investment.\
So I tried to give a flying eidolon the EXACT same limitations as a flying animal companion. While I can understand the immunities being a problem, what specifically about this version of flight is broken. What can this do that a properly stated familiar couldn't? What would brake the game? One half of a PC being able to fly over a ravine really doesn't help to much when there are still 3 1/2 players on the other side of the ravine.
Except that the Eidolon can use all of the Summoners skills, the Summoner can perceive via the Eidolon and communicate with it, and the Eidolon can perform any hypothetical action that any other player character could.
The Eidolon could hypothetically defuse a metaphorical bomb, whereas an Eagle could not.
And they can do this significantly better than a hypothetical familiar could, given the limitations on skills for a Familiar are even more restrictive than those on an Eidolon. A Familiar can at best get a modifier to skill checks, but is locked out of actions that require a specific proficiency level. Eidolons are not.
Part of the issue is that its hard to say exactly what shenanigans could happen here, save that an Eidolon in general is closer to a player character than an Animal Companion or a Familiar - and player characters are restricted on when and for how long they can access flight.
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You know, this seems like something that none of us are qualified to accurately assess. I know mark has only commented about the combat side of things, but how powerful this is out of combat seems to vague unless you a designers insight.
I'm employing my insight as a GM here, which tells me Players are creative and prone to using potent abilities like Flight in potent and unexpected ways.
I've jokingly used the example that an Eidolon can open a jar of pickles and an Animal Companion can't as an example of the vast gulf in their capabilities, but as a perpetual GM I can assure you the distinction matters.
A flying "essentially a PC" Eidolon at very low levels will break plots.
Edit - to be perfectly clear, the jar of pickles example is a metaphor for things that are simple tasks for a independent sentient humanoid, but not for an animal or tiny unskilled creature.
I am also a perpetual GM, and I don't see anything that a familiar couldn't also brake. It might lead to some splitting of the party, but a very high stealth score compared to everyone else has the same problems.
Also as a side, in February the ancestry guide will have the sprite, which at least has a fly speed in it's monster stat block. So we'll see then how they deal with player characters that "should" have flight at level one.
My guess will be that its Uncommon or Rare, and starts with something like Leshy Glide and has feats on the same schedule as Tieflings for Flight.
Coincidently, tieflings are on the same schedule as Eidolons, gaining temporary Flight at level 9 (though tieflings lack the ability to Fly every encounter like an Eidolon, due to Eidolon Flight being a Focus ability) and perma Flight at 17 (due to Ancestry feat schedules).
Most likely, thats not actually a coincidence.
I will just point out that That at least one of the designers thinks it's ok.
For an explicitly Rare character option.
Also, one that so far as i can see has not been officially published anywhere.
A race like that is perfectly fine in a game environment tuned for it and built with it in mind... but the core Summoner options are being built with Adventure Paths and Organized Play in mind, meaning Rare options that include things like permaflight can't be easily accommodated.
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This just shows that it's posable.
Once its published in an official 2E product, it demonstrates its possible.
At this point its just an illustrative example of designing an ancestry in a blog.
As well, while the rarity system is used for options that are in-setting rare, its also used to gate off effects and abilities with the potential to derail campaigns if they show up without GM permission.
Like Talking Corpse, Teleportation, Ethereal Jaunt and presumably player options in ancestries that fly at level 1.
At this point its just an illustrative example of designing an ancestry in a blog.
It is also an illustrative example of what that developer thinks is allowable as a 1st level option, which was Pronate11's point.
At this point its just an illustrative example of designing an ancestry in a blog.It is also an illustrative example of what that developer thinks is allowable as a 1st level option, which was Pronate11's point.
And again, that developer put the ability behind a Rare rarity tag. Thats not equivalent to saying that Flight is appropriate for any first level character, its a developer saying its OK for first level characters through GM fiat.
Rare character options are ones which players should not expect to be available, and which typically do not have a core gameplay path to access.
I dont have a conceptual problem with Rare flying eidolons, but that does seem like a waste of resources in the core class writeup.
And again, that developer put the ability behind a Rare rarity tag. Thats not equivalent to saying that Flight is appropriate for any first level character, its a developer saying its OK for first level characters through GM fiat.
I didn't say otherwise, so not sure why you're breaking out the italics in your zeal to tell me how wrong I am.
The point is that to that developer, flight is acceptable. Under certain circumstances, with gm permission, yes all of that. But still appropriate as long as you design with that power level in mind. Which he goes into some detail on how he would approach that particular problem.
And again, that developer put the ability behind a Rare rarity tag. Thats not equivalent to saying that Flight is appropriate for any first level character, its a developer saying its OK for first level characters through GM fiat.I didn't say otherwise, so not sure why you're breaking out the italics in your zeal to tell me how wrong I am.
The point is that to that developer, flight is acceptable. Under certain circumstances, with gm permission, yes all of that. But still appropriate as long as you design with that power level in mind. Which he goes into some detail on how he would approach that particular problem.
Right, but the issue is that official content is not designed with first level Flight in mind - APs and OP modules are built assuming it is in fact, not an issue that GMs will have to deal with.
Meaning that its extremely unlikely that Eidolons will have - or should have - an exception to the normal availability schedule for flight in their core, non-Rare rules.
I'm just most frustrated on this subject, because as written the class has a really good deal on the subject of Flying Eidolons relative to all other classes. At 9th level, every single Summoner gets a renewable fly spell that works directly on their Eidolon, meaning that the class is in the extreme minority of being one of the few classes in the game that has access to fly in encounter after encounter, all day long, at level 9.
That's objectively really good already.
The need for additional flying support just feels... really redundant to me, at least in the core entry for the class where those resources could be used for another evolution or other class feature that needs addressed more urgently.
Theres a lot of ground to cover and we already have a great deal (relative to other classes) on this item.
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Right, but the issue is that official content is not designed with first level Flight in mind - APs and OP modules are built assuming it is in fact, not an issue that GMs will have to deal with.
As the designer in question is one of the lead AP developers, I'm pretty sure he has a fair notion on how player abilities affect adventure design. He is not perfect; on a recent post he said how he designed a spell that was way out of balance, but the point was about his thinking, not if the ability is actually balanced or not.
I'm just most frustrated on this subject, because as written the class has a really good deal on the subject of Flying Eidolons relative to all other classes. At 9th level, every single Summoner gets a renewable fly spell that works directly on their Eidolon, meaning that the class is in the extreme minority of being one of the few classes in the game that has access to fly in encounter after encounter, all day long, at level 9.
What else do you see as a more pressing need at first level? Could a subtemplate address this need? We have examples on animal companions of similar mechanics, and with Eidolons we don't need to be limited to either the natural world or the bestiary.
I saw you saying "reflavoring is an option" but that's GM dependent. And yes, we are going to get more forms, but given that each form as they're written is going to need 3 semi-unique abilities designed for them, all roughly balanced against all other Eidolon abilities at the same level or you'll get retraining shenanigans, I don't think there will be a LOT more forms added. This template idea gives a tool to diversify within a form without requiring more abilities to be designed, which I think would be for the game's benefit.
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Honestly it just sounds like the animal companion stuff what with the Savage and Nimble and the Bully or Daredevil or Ambusher.
I’m not opposed to that, as I do love my animal companions (I play about 3 active Rangers with pets). However that once again come down to something like “well why don’t we just use the AC system for the Eidolon?”
In some ways, I'd prefer that. My real preference would be for the familiar system, but the AC system placed on top of a stronger than typical AC would work well for me.
As a bonus, the MC dedication is easily facilitated. Make Eidolon's approximately equal in power to an AC (just weirder), and give Summoner's an inherent ability to apply a template on that Eidolon at level 1 instead of level...8 I think?
Basically rather than start strong and nerf for a multiclass, start at the bottom and add something for the class proper.
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so you would allow a chicken eidolon to craft armor, a panther eidolon to treat wounds, or a serpent eidolon to play a piano
Except that the Eidolon can use all of the Summoners skills, the Summoner can perceive via the Eidolon and communicate with it, and the Eidolon can perform any hypothetical action that any other player character could.
If thats part of the Summoner players vision of their Eidolon? Absolutely.
However, if doing those things isn't inside the creative vision of the Summoner player? Id simply expect for them to choose not to do them.
The key is, the default assumption is that the Eidolon is capable of these things.
Whether its because they have hands, or short range video game telekinesis that is mechanically identical for all practical purposes to hands is irrelevant.
Take a look at what the animal tag limits them too, then you get a good idea the scope of the difference.
I'd really like for options for a brute eidolon, with one strong attack, a more caster like eidolon, with high charisma instead of strength and maybe a ranged/energy attack, or a more agile eidolon, with high dexterity and ranged or agile attacks.
But I think it's most important that a brute type eidolon is well represented, the other types are very secondary.
Lower level ranged attacks I think is very important though, maybe at the cost of other attacks.
I also really hope eidolons have separate skills, I really don't like them sharing the summoners skills.
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The Summoner getting to cover significantly more skills than anyone else by having a normal selection themselves and another for their eidolon (and thereby invading the territory of rhe investigator and rogue) is as obvious a balance issue as anything else.
If Eidolons get "their own" skills, the class will almost certainly lose out on base skill selection or skill options and make some sort of compromise for Eidolon skills (IE Eidolons get a tiny base skill allotment and must add others via evolutions).
I dont think Summoners will "win out" if the class goes that path compares to the current one, myself.
If Eidolons get "their own" skills, the class will almost certainly lose out on base skill selection or skill options and make some sort of compromise for Eidolon skills (IE Eidolons get a tiny base skill allotment and must add others via evolutions).
I dont think Summoners will "win out" if the class goes that path compares to the current one, myself.
That sounds great to me. I don't mind a loss of power, but flavor wise I'd like them to have separate skills.