Everyone in a 20' radius a theoretical unlimited number of times? Yes. Stunned is being rendered insensible and helpless... even Dazed would be better though Shaken would be more appropriate. Stunned? Come on.Stunned... as in... they drop whatever they're holding. Yeah, that's balanced for "someone kicked in the door". Sure this is situational, but whenever it works, it's just kinda... broken.A spell caster can stun groups with a first level spell (color spray); a monk can stun with a first level ability, but a fighter who stuns with a 5th level ability is broken?
How is it unlimited? Once per battle seems fairly limited to me, and you have to get the drop on them for it to work.
That's actually a fair point... If the PFSRD writeup is accurate, both you and your allies would need to roll a fortitude save against your own stun attack...
I think I'll houserule this feat to read "foe" rather than "character". The way I see it, your entrance is essentially like a flashbang - loud and bright, but as long as you know it's going to happen and prepare accordingly it's not going to debilitate you.
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Everyone in a 20' radius a theoretical unlimited number of times? Yes. Stunned is being rendered insensible and helpless... even Dazed would be better though Shaken would be more appropriate. Stunned? Come on.
Only if they fail a save. And if combat ends. And stunned is not Helpless.
That being said, Dazed fits too.
That's actually a fair point... If the PFSRD writeup is accurate, you'd need to roll a fortitude save against your own stun attack... Maybe he got glass in his eye?
I think I'll houserule this feat to read "foe" rather than "character". It's like a flashbang - loud and bright, but as long as you know it's going to happen and prepare accordingly it's not debilitating.
should be a 180 degree cone, not a radius… its not very impressive to people on the other side watching you go in, seeing you set up for it the whole time.
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It radiates outward from the point of entry. More akin to Burning Hands than Channel Energy. Seems to be a slight misconception there.
Compare this feat to Sacred Geometry @ whoever wanted to compare feat to feat. Both come online around 5th level and you tell me which one you think is more powerful. Sacred Geometry has to be the benchmark comparison here. Both are PFS legal and both come online at 5th level. Strong? Yes. Broken? Get da @%%%# outta hea'! ^_~
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It radiates outward from the point of entry. More akin to Burning Hands than Channel Energy. Seems to be a slight misconception there.
Compare this feat to Sacred Geometry @ whoever wanted to compare feat to feat. Both come online around 5th level and you tell me which one you think is more powerful. Sacred Geometry has to be the benchmark comparison here. Both are PFS legal and both come online at 5th level. Strong? Yes. Broken? Get da @%%%# outta hea'! ^_~
Sacred Geomettry is not PFS legal
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Sacred Geomettry is not PFS legal
I just read that feat for the first time and had to get out a slide rule just to make sense of it. When those are the new feats that are getting cranked out, it's a sure sign to me that we are waist deep in rules bloat and gave started letting mechanics cart before the story horse.
I just read that feat for the first time and had to get out a slide rule just to make sense of it. When those are the new feats that are getting cranked out, it's a sure sign to me that we are waist deep in rules bloat and gave started letting mechanics cart before the story horse.
Sacred Geomettry is not PFS legal
Sacred Geometry is an abomination, and rules bloat is starting to approach 3.5 levels, but Fluff and Crunch aren't a cart and horse. Each is (or ought to be) independent of the other.
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Everyone in a 20' radius includes allies and yourself.
I had realized that allies were subject to this but it hadn't clicked that the feat-owner is as well. Still not terribly amused... but then... I tend to DM a lot so I'll just go ahead and slip this onto a bunch of monsters who are lurking in dungeons, waiting for adventurers to check doors for traps.
Problem solved. What a great feat! I can have my players stunned before each encounter begins, if I pick monsters with lots of Hit Dice. Yay!
Sacred Geometry was PFS legal at one point I think, when was it errata'd?
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Occult Mysteries © 2014, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Crystal Frasier, Jim Groves, Brandon Hodge, James Jacobs, Erik Mona, F. Wesley Schneider, and Jerome Virnich.
Is the Sourcebook; Golarion specific stuff isn't on the PRD but by no means does that disqualify it from PFS legality.
*I could have missed an update I'm just going by my last known update for banned feats etc*
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Which I then in turn like to point out whenever a rational discussion is taking place (rather than anyone knee-jerking anything), that we aren't discussing classes, we're discussing feats. Sure, at high levels full casters are unbalanced in comparison to high-level martials, but that's an entirely different conversation. A feat's balance is generally determined by comparing it to other feats, not to what some particular race-class combination might be able to do at a particular level.
Incorrect. A Feat's power is determined by comparing it to the game as a whole. To the game as a whole, this Feat is not very powerful.
Compare this feat to other feats which inflict the Stun condition, then take into account that it inflicts it upon multiple foes simultaneously
Within a small radius, yes. In any sort of large room or where people are not huddled up near the walls or door, it is unlikely to hit very many people.
that it doesn't require a hit to trigger (like Stunning Critical or Stunning Assault) and doesn't even use up a specific action.
Except it DOES. It requires you to break a door, wall, or window. Which is a Standard or Full Round action (a single attack/Sunder check or multiple).
Unless you're speaking about a Strength check to break things, which near as I can tell isn't actually defined action-wise, but has a MUCH higher chance of failure.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Occult Mysteries © 2014, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Crystal Frasier, Jim Groves, Brandon Hodge, James Jacobs, Erik Mona, F. Wesley Schneider, and Jerome Virnich.
Is the Sourcebook; Golarion specific stuff isn't on the PRD but by no means does that disqualify it from PFS legality.
*I could have missed an update I'm just going by my last known update for banned feats etc*
From the PFS Additional Resources page, no feat from Occult Mysteries is PFS legal. That page only lists what is allowed from that book, as compared to specifically banning it.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Occult Mysteries
Equipment: all equipment and magic items on page 55 are legal for play, Prestige Class: the pain taster prestige class is legal for play; Mystery: the occult mystery is legal for play; Spells: all spells on pages 50-51 and 54-55 are legal for play, except rapping spirit and possessive dead; Traits: all traits on page 37 are legal for play.
So it's not that they banned it, they just didn't specifically allow it.
Ahh makes sense, it's pretty powerful I can see the sense and disallowing it. I'd like to re-direct my Feat power level comparison to Dazing Spell then. ;)
Dazing Fireballs give GMs serious headaches.
Which I then in turn like to point out whenever a rational discussion is taking place (rather than anyone knee-jerking anything), that we aren't discussing classes, we're discussing feats. Sure, at high levels full casters are unbalanced in comparison to high-level martials, but that's an entirely different conversation. A feat's balance is generally determined by comparing it to other feats, not to what some particular race-class combination might be able to do at a particular level.
I would like to mention that there are all sorts of other relatively low-grade easily-accessed options for shutting down opponents that are far more easily set up, require less over-all character resources (comparatively), typically have higher save DCs, and function for more enemy types.
Such as a spell.
While a given spell might not be ideal, for a number of classes, it's mostly irrelevant, as they can have a spell happen in a much easier and more controlled manner than this feat can accomplish.
This is the metric to which it is compared in my book.
Thus it's kind of like a weak spell with some drawbacks.
(I'm going to houserule the drawbacks out, though. Otherwise, it's kind of lame.)
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I'll also be house ruling this to work as it was obviously intended to. Someone throw this to the FAQ crew - it could catch a really quick errata. People kind of forget that writers easily slip up on their wording before throwing nice things to us that really don't work with RAW. They miss some less than obvious stuff that rules lawyers like ourselves are quick to tear apart.
Do you really believe they intended this to stun the user as well as his party (who, by all general expectations, should KNOW what's about to happen). Kind of silly heh
I'm seriously interested in that kool-aid man build
I almost feel like some sort of water elemental would be best fit for it
Maybe an alchemist or potion maker... who puts out potions like "Charm Person" ect... so that he busts in and everyone loves him?
Do you really believe they intended this to stun the user as well as his party (who, by all general expectations, should KNOW what's about to happen). Kind of silly heh
I think it's pretty obvious that stunning yourself is probably not the intended function of the feat, but RAW that's exactly what it does. For a home game changing the wording slightly or just ignoring that part is no big deal, but a fair number of PF players play in PFS, which can be pretty strict about the RAW side of things.
Though come to think of it I'm not sure if anything in this book is actually PFS legal.
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Stunned... as in... they drop whatever they're holding. Yeah, that's balanced for "someone kicked in the door". Sure this is situational, but whenever it works, it's just kinda... broken.
"The guard stares in slack-jawed surprise, as the sound of his mug shattering on the floor echoes in the room."
Sounds about right.
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Seriously, it's in EVERY action movie where somebody busts into a crowded room. SOMEBODY drops a glass, or bottle, or mug, or something as they stare in stunned silence.
Stunning your allies might tick them off.Presumably they are behind you. "Bob goes in first. Bob *likes* going in first."
Doug M.
25' behind you I presume.
Naturally the door kicker guy is also subject to these effects, he will always be one of the characters inside the 20' radius.
Can't see that not being errata'd via FAQ pretty soon. It might just be the game designer in me but I doubt very much that the writer of the feat intended for the feat to work like that lol. It's supposed to represent the shock and awe inflicted upon your enemies as you come crashing through the door in a murderous rage. I'm tickled pink by how badly this is implemented via RAW.
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Bring your own wall with you, set it down, then bust through it!
Might be possible if somebody conjures up a Wall of Stone for you.
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BRB rolling up the Kool-Aid ManOh yeah!
Dagnabbit, I was gonna do this, but somebody beat me to it! Well, my lungs can still to it better.
OOOOOOOH YEAAAAAAHHH!
Seriously, it's in EVERY action movie where somebody busts into a crowded room. SOMEBODY drops a glass, or bottle, or mug, or something as they stare in stunned silence.
Tropes aren't necessarily tropes because they're based on reality. That said, maintaining high-alert status is very, very difficult.
Thing is, what I was trying to point out is that you've - by definition - lost the surprise round because you weren't aware someone was coming through the door, then you've got a decent chance of being stunned for the first real round, then you get to spend the third round picking up your weapons, which provokes attacks of opportunity from the invaders that used the first round to close on you (and attack once, against your flat-footed AC).
Basically it's a huge world of hurt if it works. It's not just "stunned for one round". It's screwed for two-and-a-half-rounds. When combat typically lasts four rounds, having one side of the fight not participate for more than half really means that any fight where the defenders fail their saves will not actually be a fight.
Yes, there are spells (and spell-related tactics) that can do similar lopsided things, but they have one thing in common: they use consumables. You have limited slots per day to pull them off.
Personally if I was writing or reviewing this I would have done anything but stunned, because of the extra round of penalty. I can't believe it was really considered (much like the self-stunning aspect) by the developer, or else they would have called the feat "Win". Okay, let's be fair, there's a saving throw. It'd be called "Probably Win".
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Why are the people already holding their weapons?
IME people who are surprised by your presence are not already armed.
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Stunned... as in... they drop whatever they're holding. Yeah, that's balanced for "someone kicked in the door". Sure this is situational, but whenever it works, it's just kinda... broken."The guard stares in slack-jawed surprise, as the sound of his mug shattering on the floor echoes in the room."
Sounds about right.
"Smite Evil!" shouts the war priest of Cayden Cailean as he goes for the guard who just wasted good alcohol.
Why are the people already holding their weapons?
IME people who are surprised by your presence are not already armed.
It's not too uncommon for the bad guys to know that your party is in the building/camp/dungeon/etc, but they don't know exactly when or where you'll show up. So unless they're professional enough to have a plan in place for when an enemy force infiltrates the castle, they'll probably just draw their weapons and watch the door nervously.
Seriously, it's in EVERY action movie where somebody busts into a crowded room. SOMEBODY drops a glass, or bottle, or mug, or something as they stare in stunned silence.Tropes aren't necessarily tropes because they're based on reality. That said, maintaining high-alert status is very, very difficult.
Thing is, what I was trying to point out is that you've - by definition - lost the surprise round because you weren't aware someone was coming through the door, then you've got a decent chance of being stunned for the first real round, then you get to spend the third round picking up your weapons, which provokes attacks of opportunity from the invaders that used the first round to close on you (and attack once, against your flat-footed AC).
Basically it's a huge world of hurt if it works. It's not just "stunned for one round". It's screwed for two-and-a-half-rounds. When combat typically lasts four rounds, having one side of the fight not participate for more than half really means that any fight where the defenders fail their saves will not actually be a fight.
Yes, there are spells (and spell-related tactics) that can do similar lopsided things, but they have one thing in common: they use consumables. You have limited slots per day to pull them off.
Personally if I was writing or reviewing this I would have done anything but stunned, because of the extra round of penalty. I can't believe it was really considered (much like the self-stunning aspect) by the developer, or else they would have called the feat "Win". Okay, let's be fair, there's a saving throw. It'd be called "Probably Win".
1- It's incredibly situational
2- It has a freaking save. Fort! The most common good save in the game!3- It only affects a 20ft radius
4- It'll at most be used once per combat, and even that is doubtful! A caster with mediocre spells per day will have far more spell slots than that to spend on his SoD spells.
This feat is not even what I'd consider a SoL effect, since it only lasts 1 round and doesn't kill the character.
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"So... how, exactly, do you start every combat like this?"
"Have you ever seen a raging Hafling Barbarian being launched by a shrunken ballista? Because I have."
As written it also works with ranged weapons. You probably need something huge, like a cannon, to overcome the half damage for ranged attacks, but still hilarious.
I thought the same at first (for example, that a gunslinger could use this when shooting down the door).
But, it specifies the area is around "your entry point", which means you must physically enter the room through the hole you made. It also says "Before starting combat, you can attempt to break through a door, window, or wall to enter a room."
Why are the people already holding their weapons?
IME people who are surprised by your presence are not already armed.
Come on, the mini shows them with a weapon in hand, so clearly they always have it out and ready.
Must make turning the page of a book, mixing a precise recipe, or changing diapers difficult.
Steel-Breaker Dwarf Brawler incoming.
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It's not too uncommon for the bad guys to know that your party is in the building/camp/dungeon/etc, but they don't know exactly when or where you'll show up. So unless they're professional enough to have a plan in place for when an enemy force infiltrates the castle, they'll probably just draw their weapons and watch the door nervously.Why are the people already holding their weapons?
IME people who are surprised by your presence are not already armed.
an enemy force of 4…. and the bad guys just hide behind doors, waiting for their turn?
Hallways and doorways are kill zones, where only one or two can squeeze through at a time.
They knew this even back when people built castles… one of the main reasons hallways between inner and outer areas are so narrow.
makes it more defensible.
it doesn't make sense of anyone who is smart enough to be afraid of castle/dungeon invaders to simply hide behind a door and hope the invaders don't open it.
One of the things that often seems to happen is that wording gets pared down because the publishers are always trying to cram so much into a small space. Occasionally I think a clause or phrase gets dropped which didn't seem important at the time but actually needed to be in there to clarify things.
It certainly seems that you can stun yourself by using this feat. That is probably an oversight but then again I'm not sure.
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This is going to be great for my skulking slayer x / mutation warrior 1 half-orc and his sneak-attacking greataxe. :)
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Only real downside it that you have to enter a room so it won't work when exiting a building. Breaking the door from down below and storming up on the ships deck or jumping out through a window down on the enemy bellow would be great uses for it that I'd personally allow but that sadly at least one GM I know of would not.
Other than the obvious RAW problems with making yourself stunned or shaken my big question about this feat is whether it does anything at all if there isn’t a surprise round. It says that “all characters within 20 feet of your entry point must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + your base attack bonus) or be stunned instead of acting in the surprise round (if there is one) plus 1 round thereafter”. If it just said “in the surprise round plus 1 round thereafter” it would seem clear to me that this feat only works in a surprise round. The parenthetical statement “(if there is one)” kind of makes me wonder though.
I happen to be playing a mythic Viking with a pretty high Stealth, so if this is available in that game and I can manage to fit it into his feat plan it might be a fun addition. He’s already known for his propensity to leap out from hiding and scare people with intimidate. Bashing through a door or wall with his adamantine shield and stunning folks would be great.
Or there's the piercing that gives you a permanent +5 on Intimidate checks for 3,700 gp.
What’s that called? I can think of a couple PCs who need it. Do you see a mechanical problem with this, or do you just not care for the flavor? +5 skill items are usually 2,500gp, so you’re actually paying 50% extra here. That’s still a 25% discount off the expected price if the item is slotless. Otherwise it is kind of expensive.
@Ser Clay - I wouldn’t put money on getting FAQ or errata for something fringe like this. Honestly I could almost imagine forcing the Kool-Aid Man to make a save vs being stunned since he just smashed through a wall. It is being shaken if you fail the save which is obviously flat out wrong to me. “Oh no! I’m scared of my own strength!”