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I just need to vent. I just spent six hours climbing a stupid tower just to have the GM repeatedly screw up the final combat and kill my PC. He obviously hadn't read the adventure. The enemies came back to life, because he was wrong about how many hit points they had, in the middle of a battle, after several people had taken their turns and moved around. Another medium sized creature walked over the square that set the tower to falling, but he only made it fall when I walked over it. The guy next to me fell too. I rolled a 14, he rolled an 18. After being informed that my character was dead I asked what the DC was. The GM said 15. I'm not sure how to protect others from his incompetence in the future. I'm pretty upset about losing a character in the sixth hour of what was supposed to be a four hour game, and in fishy circumstances.
I have no idea what to do next. I suppose I need to make a new character because I signed up to play next week already. Is there some way of getting a GM decertified? I don't think he is a bad player or person, but is completely incompetent as a GM and I will walk away if I ever get assigned to his table again.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Sounds like Master of the Fallen Fortress, which is a free download!
And indeed that's more of a 6 hour game than a 4 hour game.
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I wasn't thinking that I should have lived, though I certainly would have taken different actions if the were no coming back to life. I was more worried about the guy who fell on an 18. I suppose it is like any other large group, there will be various levels of competence, I was simply expecting better.
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I will certainly have to speak to the people in charge, I can figure out who they are when I'm not over-tired. Hazard of gaming with strangers I suppose. The guy was nice, and I don't want to pick a fight with him. This was only my second PFS game ever. I really enjoyed the first one. I'm kinda sad because I would have lived if I had powergamed.
I played that scenario once and GMed it 7 times. It’s really easy to run with minor prep despite the module not having complete stat blocks printed in it. You can download the PDF for it for free and see where else he went wrong if you’d like. If he really went way off then I’d recommend speaking to your VC.
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So, did you like the first five hours?
Not really. I've been GMing for over 20 years, so I know the rules to this and several other RPGs quite well. The game was running very slowly due to both lack of preparation and lack of rules mastery. I was getting annoyed with the game from the first encounter, and by 4 hours in I was tired, hungry and just wanted to go home.
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Sorry that you had this experience. It can happen that inexperienced GM's can make mistakes or have lack of prep time etc. It's part of the risks sometimes with random play that you'll sit down with a bad GM.
Don't let this one GM reflect on all the rest of what PFS can offer. There are plenty of other great players and GMs that are in the area. You can always make another character to replace the one you lost, or play a pregen character.
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I wasn't thinking that I should have lived, though I certainly would have taken different actions if the were no coming back to life. I was more worried about the guy who fell on an 18. I suppose it is like any other large group, there will be various levels of competence, I was simply expecting better.
Why? Have you seen the requirements to dm? Must have a PFS number.
Everybody has to start somewhere, and thankfully they started with level 1s where you only lose the 4 hours of game time. If its a common problem in your area, hop behind the screen and show them how its done.
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I would definitely continue going to PFS events. Even try going to another session with the same GM. Not every session will be a walk in the park. You'll come across GMs that are forced to run a session cold (which may have been this case), or players who are stressed from a long day at work, or scenarios that are just deadly.
I wouldn't judge PFS, or even a GM, on just one encounter. First impressions are important, but so are 2nd chances.
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Also, I'm sure in your 20 years of gaming you've picked up some skills or pointers that may be useful to this GM. Step aside with them sometime and talk with them. At least before going on an international forum and complaining about them, when nobody here knows the whole story.
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Contributor
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As coordinator of the event this scenario took place at, I'd like to point out a few things.
This was the GM's very first time running a table for PFS. He came to me a week ago after having played at this location for a few months and said he'd like to help share the GM load. I recommended checking the FreeRPG scenarios to get started, and I'd print out something like The Confirmation for him if he'd like to keep going.
I had a seasoned GM at the table to help out. This person was actually going to GM this week but agreed to help the new GM instead. Speaking with him after the fact, he said the new GM in question did fine for his first time with only a few notable errors that he and the table were able to help him with. Unfortunately, a character death occurred around the same time as one of these errors.
The GM was extremely apologetic and tried to smooth over any mistakes the best he could. He admitted at the beginning of the scenario he wasn't especially experienced and was trying his hand at GMing to help out. And again, according to someone at the table who does GM regularly, he did a relatively good job. He was new, there were mistakes, but overall nothing blindingly incompetent.
If players have any issues with GMs at my store and request not being at their table, I can make a point to accommodate that request. I understand that people don't always get along or rub each other the wrong way. However, if that GM is running the only table you can play and you don't want that GM, then you're going to miss out on a night of PFS. I cannot change an entire night's set up for one person when twenty others are already good to go. Other than that, I can make sure GM's run to the best of their ability and watch for repeat problems.
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I just need to vent. I just spent six hours climbing a stupid tower just to have the GM repeatedly screw up the final combat and kill my PC. He obviously hadn't read the adventure. The enemies came back to life, because he was wrong about how many hit points they had, in the middle of a battle, after several people had taken their turns and moved around. Another medium sized creature walked over the square that set the tower to falling, but he only made it fall when I walked over it. The guy next to me fell too. I rolled a 14, he rolled an 18. After being informed that my character was dead I asked what the DC was. The GM said 15. I'm not sure how to protect others from his incompetence in the future. I'm pretty upset about losing a character in the sixth hour of what was supposed to be a four hour game, and in fishy circumstances.
I have no idea what to do next. I suppose I need to make a new character because I signed up to play next week already. Is there some way of getting a GM decertified? I don't think he is a bad player or person, but is completely incompetent as a GM and I will walk away if I ever get assigned to his table again.
Hey Gregory
Thanks for taking the time to speak up about this. It helps us, the organizers of your local games, know how to improve our region.
Let me introduce myself, I'm Kyle! One of your local Venture Captains. If you have problems you don't feel your store coordinator can handle, I'm the next step in the ladder to issue resolution.
It looks like my fella Pinstriped has already got you on his radar and is aware and able to make sure your next game experience is improved.
I believe you got caught in the crossfire of us community building...let me explain that statement.
One of the most important things for any community to survive, is new people joining. That's you! Your first experiences with us are super important. It is our "handshake", so to say. We only get a few games to convince most people to stick around, so we try to keep our level of GM awesomeness high at low level tables, just for this reason alone.
However...our second priority, is getting new players to become new GM's. This is where your experience occurred I believe. In that process for that GM.
So...please allow us continued chances to show you our awesome as a community. Pinstriped's beard alone can weave tales of such heroic baldric, that I worry for the unshaven who tread the trials he trepidates.
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Sounds like Master of the Fallen Fortress, which is a free download!
And indeed that's more of a 6 hour game than a 4 hour game.
Loved this free adventure, as did my players. Tested them, pushed them, and no one died.
As for the dm, yeah, no certification (I might make up some though for new dms I was impressed with).
You could malign their reputation on society and paizo and hamper any of their games in the future, in which they will improve and do better, but I really would recommend you do not do that.
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Its unfortunately a usual pattern (especially in smaller venues) that less experienced DMs take the lower level table lower level tables have a lot of appeal to newer DMs
-Easier to prepare: There are fewer monsters with weird abilities. You really don't need to look up how a dire rat works vs say all the weird rules for pounce and grapple from a dire lion
-easier to run: The dire rat rolls a d20 and a d4. You're done. The lion needs 5 color coded dice or 5 rolls.
-Easier plotline (less convoluted story, fewer references to previous scenarios)
-Some are free
-The DM gets usable credit out of it
-The DM hasn't gone insane running it 15 times already
It unfortunately means putting the most vulnerable in the hands of the least capable. Ideally, you'd have 3 tables, one high tier game, one low tier game, and one introductory game being run by someone deliberately avoiding bloodbaths.
Lowbie game: actively trying not to kill anyone that doesn't submit an application for a darwin award.
Middle game: let the dice fall where they may
High level game: DIE DIE DIE!
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When I run it, and someone is unlucky enough to fall, besides the BBEG and his AC, I will give them Reflex saves to try and grab each floor as they go by, as mentioned in the sidebar in the module, and scale damage appropriately for the actual distance fallen before they make the save. That can, if they are unlucky, still kill someone's PC, but it gives them a chance to survive.
I think, last time I ran it, they fell, and the Druid is the only one who fell all the way. He was in bad shape, but alone, until the rest of the PCs came scuttling down to finish him off.
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Being sick of bad GMs in organized play inspired me to volunteer for the first time. I started LG in January 2006 and by March I was GMing at conventions. Gregory Connolly, you have the experience and you know what it feels like to be let down. Would you rather this happen to another table, or will you pick up the gauntlet that has been laid before you?
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Grumble grumble, incompetent GM, grumble grumble.
I got it, your venting and I'm cool with that, so no problem there.
Let me put on my serious hat though. New GMs shouldn't be held to the same standard as guys who have been doing it for years. Pathfinder isn't exactly the easiest system to run. I've been running 3.0/3.5/PFRPG for years and still make some mistakes every time I run a game.
Most of the time they are minor and no one but myself evens notices, but occasionally I have to back things up and fix an issues at the table. I TPK'd a party during Fortress of the Nail because I used the high tier stats for the last fight by mistake. Mistakes happen, we reset the fight with the proper stats the second time.
One thing that can help new GMs is to have a GM mentor around, to advise and help the new guy if needed. Also, have a feedback session for 5 minutes when you are done. I try to ask my players if there were any issues or things I can improve on for the future.
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Gregory,
The best thing to do if you ever have a problem with a GM or another player is not always to walk away or even complain. But it should be to go and speak to your coordinator for the event. If it IS the coordinator of the event then speak to your local VC or one of the VL's for your area... or other officer if available.
if they are not able to handle the situation or you have an issue with one of them... then speak to Mike Brock.
By coming here and speaking out to us is a good way to rant but it can also be a catalyst to a lot of issues in your area and can honestly hurt peoples feelings that you are speaking about. While no names were mentioned. It seems like it was pretty obvious who it was by a few postings. Being he was a new GM too... might mean he will not GM again because of your post and that would be a shame. I am not saying you are doing anything wrong but there are better ways.
I would hate to see a new GM stop GMing and or even stop playing because he/she is to ashamed to do so again from lack of confidence. The coordinator or local VC can mollify the situation immediately and hopefully with good results for all concerned :)
Again I am not accusing you of doing anything wrong. Just some advice going in to the future is all :)
Good Luck sir.
Well said. Yeah, every dm starts terrible (it's just a matter of do your players notice or not). It can certainly take a while to get good.
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Well said. Yeah, every dm starts terrible (it's just a matter of do your players notice or not). It can certainly take a while to get good.Balderdash!
Hiding your mistakes is half of good dming! :)
I told my newer GMs: When in doubt, sound convincing. And if you do make a mistake, no one will ever be any the wiser. Just don't kill anyone with a mistake.
They replied: Is that really how it works?
Me: Yep, what else do you think I've been doing this whole time?
One of them doesn't like making mistakes and will spend 4 days highlighting every single thing of minor importance. Which is fine but I gave him Scars of the Third Crusade recently without realizing how convoluted it was and when he gave my back the copy, entire pages were highlighted in 5 different colors. I felt bad afterwards about ditching that on him, but he did GM'd it perfectly.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Our local VC gives out a framed certificate in front of the whole gathered set of tables every time someone gets a new star. It's just a neat way of giving people a bit of recognition in front of everyone.
How do you "make up certification" for new GMs in PF Society?As for the dm, yeah, no certification (I might make up some though for new dms I was impressed with).
Oh! That's really cool.
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Well said. Yeah, every dm starts terrible (it's just a matter of do your players notice or not). It can certainly take a while to get good.Balderdash!
Hiding your mistakes is half of good dming! :)
I told my newer GMs: When in doubt, sound convincing. And if you do make a mistake, no one will ever be any the wiser. Just don't kill anyone with a mistake.
They replied: Is that really how it works?
Me: Yep, what else do you think I've been doing this whole time?
One of them doesn't like making mistakes and will spend 4 days highlighting every single thing of minor importance. Which is fine but I gave him Scars of the Third Crusade recently without realizing how convoluted it was and when he gave my back the copy, entire pages were highlighted in 5 different colors. I felt bad afterwards about ditching that on him, but he did GM'd it perfectly.
I read each scenario about 12 times. I read every spell and spell like ability. Even if I have played with them before. If I understand an ability incorrectly and I damage a players future play I cheated them permantly. I also permantly cheated everyone as they may never get to to play the scenario again. I cheated the effort the writer made into the product.
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I read each scenario about 12 times. I read every spell and spell like ability. Even if I have played with them before. If I understand an ability incorrectly and I damage a players future play I cheated them permantly. I also permantly cheated everyone as they may never get to to play the scenario again. I cheated the effort the writer made into the product.Well said. Yeah, every dm starts terrible (it's just a matter of do your players notice or not). It can certainly take a while to get good.Balderdash!
Hiding your mistakes is half of good dming! :)
I told my newer GMs: When in doubt, sound convincing. And if you do make a mistake, no one will ever be any the wiser. Just don't kill anyone with a mistake.
They replied: Is that really how it works?
Me: Yep, what else do you think I've been doing this whole time?
One of them doesn't like making mistakes and will spend 4 days highlighting every single thing of minor importance. Which is fine but I gave him Scars of the Third Crusade recently without realizing how convoluted it was and when he gave my back the copy, entire pages were highlighted in 5 different colors. I felt bad afterwards about ditching that on him, but he did GM'd it perfectly.
No matter what, we GMs will make a mistake. Heck the writers and editors make mistakes too, many of us have caught them left in the final products. So yeah, no matter what we will make a mistake, either a mistakes of our own creation or by following everything written perfectly we make a mistake the editor or writer left in scenario unknowingly. That is a given.
The gods aren't perfect, Paizo isn't perfect, and neither am I.
The lesson is learning how to smooth over those mistakes and make sure everyone has a good time and making sure no one is severely harmed by those mistakes.
The problem isn't that mistakes are made. The problem is how the mistakes are handled afterwards.
I shouldn't have to read a scenario 12 times or study it 4 days straight to run it right (however there are occasional exceptions). Now I will go over it a minimal of 2 or 3 times. First time I just read it on the tablet without making notes, this is so I know the flow of the scenario. Then I will go over a paper copy, highlighting important things, making notes in the margins, since I skimmed the scenario already I have an idea of what I need to take note on to run things smoothly. Then I will reread it again with the notes and highlighting, and I am done at this point. Because no matter what else I do to prepare for this scenario my players are going to do things the scenario does not expect them to do at all and I will be left on my own.
And of course then there are the player made mistakes...
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There are times where we do have to over prepare as it were. But for the most part it shouldn't require that level of preparedness. Course maybe my players have just taught me to not over prepare stuff or they will find a way to make me regret it.
Course that is another thing, the level of prep you need to do as a GM might depend on the level of experience of the players. I recently volunteered to GM for a group outside my norm and the players were doing things my usual group wouldn't do cause they were more experienced and caught me off guard. I will admit I made some bad calls during it. But the players also were doing things the scenario didn't expect them to do either. So all in all even if I had decided those calls differently, I'd like to think the outcome wouldn't have changed too much.
On the flip side you can run everything right and something bad happens, if you leave any doubt in that you did things right, the players might give you a ton of flak and claim you were horrible cause they didn't like the outcome. Not something I've seen in game, but something I've had to deal with in life when dealing with people in general that I am going to assume does happen from time to time in game as well.
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I run the scenarios cold. I don't read them beforehand. I just read them at the table and make the players wait. I draw the maps as they are needed, which usually means that I need to erase the map from the previous session first. And I use whatever miniatures I happen to have on me at the time. A size small rat mini placed on an intersection to indicate that it occupies four squares is a perfectly suitable representation for a Large black dragon. The players get the idea.
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Our local VC gives out a framed certificate in front of the whole gathered set of tables every time someone gets a new star. It's just a neat way of giving people a bit of recognition in front of everyone.
How do you "make up certification" for new GMs in PF Society?As for the dm, yeah, no certification (I might make up some though for new dms I was impressed with).
Jealous!
Not really, but it is a cool idea. I wonder if I can talk to a local man of influence?
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Like anything else in life, no matter how good you are at it, there is always room to improve.The best DMs never stop.It can certainly take a while to get good.I'm still working on it myself.
Nothing more to add to that. ^_^
Anyone else here take the fall and live? I did. I have the screenshot to prove it. I think I'll print and frame it some day.
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I run the scenarios cold.
Maps and minis are just add-ons, and not essential to play - some of my best games have been on blank battlemaps with pens and M&M minis. Running scenarios cold, though, is something to be avoided in my experience. It's often fine (or at least good enough) for hack and slash, but there is a lot of lore, NPC details, and plot that is hard to pick up on the first read-through.
I humbly suggest that some prep time reading the scenario is well worth the effort, not just for your own enjoyment but for those of your players.