DM Beckett |
Here's a Level 4 Archer Cleric for comparison. Quick design and a bit more orientated to general adventuring, only added buff is Rapid Shot enabled
Unnamed Hero
Human (ulfen) cleric (crusader) of Erastil 4 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 40)
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5 <+7>; Senses Perception +2
Aura predator's grace (10 ft.)
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +4 dexterity, +1 natural)
hp 31 (4d8+8)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged mwk composite longbow +8/+8 (1d8+3/×3)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 3/day (DC 12, 2d6)
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 4th; concentration +5)
. . 2nd—defending bone, hold animal D (DC 13)
. . 1st—bless, entropic shield, magic fang D , magic weapon
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance
. . D Domain spell; Domain Animal (Fur subdomain)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 19
Feats Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Traits armor expert, deadeye bowman
Skills Acrobatics +5, Diplomacy +7, Handle Animal +2, Heal +5, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5 (+7 to identify undead and their special abilities), Perception +2, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +6, Survival +1 (+3 to avoid becoming lost when using this), Swim +3
Languages Common, Skald
SQ animal companion (crocodile named Animal Companion)
Combat Gear acid, alchemist's fire, alkali flask, artoku's fire, bottled lightning, burst jar, holy water (2), stormstone, tanglefoot bag; Other Gear +1 chain shirt, mwk composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +1, cracked amethyst pyramid ioun stone, cracked dark blue rhomboid ioun stone, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, cracked pale ruby trillian ioun stone, cracked pink and green sphere ioun stone, cracked vermillion rhomboid ioun stone, ioun torch ioun stone, backpack, masterwork, bandolier, bandolier, bedroll, belt pouch, blanket, chalk, charcoal stick, compass, earplugs, flint and steel, grappling arrow, hammock, tattoo holy symbol, holy text, ink, black, inkpen, journal, manacles, mirror, mug/tankard, pot, scroll box, sealing wax, sewing needle, signal whistle, signet ring, silk rope (50 ft.), soap, spell component pouch, weapon cord, whetstone (2), wrist sheath, spring loaded, 738 gp, 3 sp, 9 cp Might sell off a bit for a Wand of Cure Light, or might by some barding.
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Special Abilities
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Cleric (Crusader) Domain (Fur)
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 2d6 (3/day, DC 12) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Compass +2 circumstance for Survival or Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to avoid becoming lost.
Deadeye Bowman When using a longbow, your target is denied the soft cover AC bonus from one creature.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Ioun torch This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Predator's Grace (+10 ft, 4/day) (Su) Swift action: +10 speed, Low-light vision for 1 round.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Weapon cord Attached weapon can be recovered as a swift action.
Animal Companion
Crocodile
N Small animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+2 dexterity, +4 natural, +1 size)
hp 16 (+7)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
Melee bite +4 (1d6+3)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 14 (18 vs. trip)
Feats Toughness
Skills Acrobatics +6, Stealth +10 (+18 in Water), Swim +10; Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth in Water
SQ hold breath
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Special Abilities
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Hold Breath (x4) (Ex) You can stay under water longer than normal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Swimming (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Undone |
I already conceded to match the animal domain's absurd domain power you have to be a divine commander or a very high level sacred fist. You'll also note that without the pet he does less damage. If you swap to human divine commander the divine commander would do more or have the animal companion feats the archer could do more.
Kudaku |
I think the animal domain seems to be a good match for the Summoning Blessings personally - the cleric gets a constant fixed companion, while the warpriest gets a swift action flexible summoned companion.
I wonder how long it'll take before we see a cleric who can take blessings or a warpriest who can take domains.
@Beckett: Was that made using Hero Lab, or some other software? I've been looking for a better way to write up stat blocks, but dropping $100 on Hero lab isn't really all that tempting.
Undone |
I think the animal domain seems to be a good match for the Summoning Blessings personally - the cleric gets a constant fixed companion, while the warpriest gets a swift action flexible summoned companion.
I wonder how long it'll take before we see a cleric who can take blessings or a warpriest who can take domains.
@Beckett: Was that made using Hero Lab, or some other software? I've been looking for a better way to write up stat blocks, but dropping $100 on Hero lab isn't really all that tempting.
So what happens when the WP is a divine commander who has a griffon AND a summoned monster?
DM Beckett |
I think the animal domain seems to be a good match for the Summoning Blessings personally - the cleric gets a constant fixed companion, while the warpriest gets a swift action flexible summoned companion.
I wonder how long it'll take before we see a cleric who can take blessings or a warpriest who can take domains.
@Beckett: Was that made using Hero Lab, or some other software? I've been looking for a better way to write up stat blocks, but dropping $100 on Hero lab isn't really all that tempting.
Herolab, but I dont think its that much. Could have sworn I picked it up for like $30 US. Its fantastic for searching and playing with character creation.
Kudaku |
Herolab, but I dont think its that much. Could have sworn I picked it up for like $30 US. Its fantastic for searching and playing with character creation.
The basic software is only $30, but I was under the impression that you need to buy data packs to use other rulebooks at $9,99 as well?
So what happens when the WP is a divine commander who has a griffon AND a summoned monster?
Well, first of all he's he's not a warpriest and secondly, I don't think Divine Commanders get blessings.
Undone |
Undone wrote:???I already conceded to match the animal domain's absurd domain power. . .
An animal companion especially since boon companion exists is the single biggest addition to DPR you can have. You'll also not I explicitly call out earlier that anyone discussing the Damage of a WP vs a cleric needs an animal companion.
If one side gets it and the other doesn't the side with one will almost always win.
The divine commander gets a full progression mount and you can take monstrous mount griffon which is effectively flying lion.
Well, first of all he's he's not a warpriest and secondly, I don't think Divine Commanders get blessings.
They don't. The animal companion is still significantly more damage.
Kudaku |
They don't. The animal companion is still significantly more damage.
...Then why did you compare a cleric with an animal companion to a divine commander with an animal companion and a summoned monster?
When the Commander loses blessings he becomes an extremely underwhelming summoner - he has the 1-round casting time and he's casting from a staggered spell progression list.
DM Beckett |
You'll also note that without the pet he does less damage. If you swap to human divine commander the divine commander would do more or have the animal companion feats the archer could do more.
"For comparison". I built this two or three days ago, just been waiting for your build. I guess that's close enough, but you are the one that keeps saying how great the WP is, and how if they do this min/max thing or that min/max thing, it leaves everyone else in the dust. But apparently, no other classes get to do even basic optimization for their theme or it doesn't count.Feel free to run your numbers without the stupid pet. I also went with PFS legal, so no Falcons Aim.
Im not trying to beat you, but show with evidence that the Waarpriest is not as superawesome as you keep posting, and also tried to avoid any contested rules or weird interpretations like the bonus feats issue.
So what happens when the WP is a divine commander who has a griffon AND a summoned monster?
Then they have a griffon and a SM, too? What's the point?
Undone |
Undone wrote:They don't. The animal companion is still significantly more damage....Then why did you compare a cleric with an animal companion to a divine commander with an animal companion and a summoned monster?
When the Commander loses blessings he becomes an extremely underwhelming summoner - he has the 1-round casting time and he's casting from a staggered spell progression list.
I shouldn't have. I should have compared it to the nature soul/animal ally feats. I'm currently distracted half reading oracle text books and half responding to this.
The archer listed by me is mostly a build intended to scale well. I've not looked into archery much as I primarily either build 2 handed characters for games that are below level 8 and above level 10 games I build scaling characters like the listed archer. In either case I still prefer the sacred fist because of the BAB and pummeling style being a fantastic damage amplifier.
Kudaku |
I'd expect the cleric to do better in a THF comparison actually, that's a style with only one "must-have" feat compared to Archery's four/five. Archery means the cleric will probably have to be a Crusader, which is not a particularly amazing archetype unless you really need to get a feat-intensive combat style online like dex-based TWF or archery.
Nature Soul/Animal Ally is a viable option for a warpriest, but it really eats into his feat advantage - a crusader cleric would have more feats (though with more limited options) available until level 12, where they'd be even.
DM Beckett |
To be honest, going Crusader was a bit of a downgrade. Loosing out on another Domain in order to gin Weapon Focus and the later Weapon Spec only, not really worth it.
For a more melee martial cleric, it would work much better, even combining Mendev Priest for no Domains, but Heavy Armor and a few more Feats they can use.
Undone |
To be honest, going Crusader was a bit of a downgrade. Loosing out on another Domain in order to gin Weapon Focus and the later Weapon Spec only, not really worth it.
For a more melee martial cleric, it would work much better, even combining Mendev Priest for no Domains, but Heavy Armor and a few more Feats they can use.
Both effect domains and shouldn't be able to be stacked unless I'm mistaken.
I'd expect the cleric to do better in a THF comparison actually, that's a style with only one "must-have" feat compared to Archery's four/five. Archery means the cleric will probably have to be a Crusader, which is not a particularly amazing archetype unless you really need to get a feat-intensive combat style online like dex-based TWF or archery.
I admit that's the case, in fact the cleric should win handily if he goes animal/plant(Growth) which our resident nature god allows and both go reachy types. The WP allows for some cute builds faster and better (Punishing assault, pin down, exct) but it's not an OP feat intensive style. Archery and lancing are the only two things which it truly excels at compared to a cleric.
Nature Soul/Animal Ally is a viable option for a warpriest, but it really eats into his feat advantage - a crusader cleric would have more feats (though with more limited options) available until level 12, where they'd be even.
Again with archetypes I'd go for the sacred fist for all styles except lance, even archery since you can dip 1 zen archer and not lose FOB progression. Also humans have a FCB which helps and since the cleric would lose spell progression significantly that would favor the WP I think.
EDIT: I'm not saying the WP is stronger than the cleric. It's not. The same can be said of the inquisitor and the paladin. All are significantly weaker overall characters but the cleric doesn't do as much damage because it can't afford the best styles early.
Also if we are looking for pure cheese the DPR charts the cleric should at level 5 get a 20HD skeletal dragon which he animated on desecrated ground.
DrDeth |
Hi,
I am currently playing a Warpriest at 8th level (started at 5).
I chose to go with the Champion of Faith Archetype since I wanted smite and smite is awesome.
Since it came out I have found both offense and resources wise, the inquisitor is a better class.
A better WAR priest.
Three levels in one game is hardly the type of broad-based playtesting that would mean a class needs to be "fixed", is it?
GhanjRho |
Something like this, maybe?
A Warpriest draws spells from the Inquisitor, Paladin and Antipaladin spell lists. If a spell appears at multiple levels, it is given at the lowest level. A Warpriest is bound by both their alignment and their deity's alignment, and cannot cast spells in opposition to either alignment. For example, a True Neutral warpriest of Gorum cannot cast spells with the [Lawful] descriptor, due to Gorum's Chaotic Neutral alignment, while a Chaotic Good warpriest of Gorum could not cast spells with the [Evil] descriptor.
STR Ranger |
Xavier Longsaddle wrote:Three levels in one game is hardly the type of broad-based playtesting that would mean a class needs to be "fixed", is it?Hi,
I am currently playing a Warpriest at 8th level (started at 5).
I chose to go with the Champion of Faith Archetype since I wanted smite and smite is awesome.
Since it came out I have found both offense and resources wise, the inquisitor is a better class.
A better WAR priest.
Just making an observation based on (limited) experience with the final version.
Undone has written a handbook on war priests in the few days it's been available.
This is alot faster than I would have done.
I have played 4 inquisitors in 3 different APS, (CoT, Crimson Throne, Legacy of fire)
And written 3 handbooks myself off 10 years play exp.
My point was this NEW class seems to have missed it's mark a little. Most classes (bar rogue) have a super awesome kick ass way to fill it's niche (even if they share the same role as another class. Witch=Wizard=Sorcerer)
Right now the Warpriest is sharing role space with the Paladin, Inquisitor, the battle oracle and the battle cleric and they all seem to outperform it.
anlashok |
Even as someone who thinks the class is a complete waste of space and not worth the paper it's printed on I have to admit that asking for "fixes" seems a bit sketchy.
It's a solidly effective class and I'd probably like it if it weren't in such a crowded design space. It's more effective than the paladin (unless the paladin can smite constantly, and even then it has vastly better... everything that's not damage) and while I think the Inquisitor is overall a better class, it isn't significantly so.
I do agree that a specialized spell list would be nice, it's always nice to give a 6th level caster some early access and high level stuff rather than a pure 6th level list. At the very least you could give it a hybrid list like the Hunter.
Inquisitor list doesn't help much though. Plus the inquisitor gets a lot of social stuff and tracking stuff, neither really make sense on a warpriest.
Insain Dragoon |
Xavier Longsaddle wrote:Three levels in one game is hardly the type of broad-based playtesting that would mean a class needs to be "fixed", is it?Hi,
I am currently playing a Warpriest at 8th level (started at 5).
I chose to go with the Champion of Faith Archetype since I wanted smite and smite is awesome.
Since it came out I have found both offense and resources wise, the inquisitor is a better class.
A better WAR priest.
*I find Warpriest to be sub par*
"Don't theorycraft! Playtest!"*Still find it sub par after some playtest*
"You didn't play test it long enough, playtest more!"
swoosh |
DrDeth wrote:Xavier Longsaddle wrote:Three levels in one game is hardly the type of broad-based playtesting that would mean a class needs to be "fixed", is it?Hi,
I am currently playing a Warpriest at 8th level (started at 5).
I chose to go with the Champion of Faith Archetype since I wanted smite and smite is awesome.
Since it came out I have found both offense and resources wise, the inquisitor is a better class.
A better WAR priest.*I find Warpriest to be sub par*
"Don't theorycraft! Playtest!"
*Still find it sub par after some playtest*
"You didn't play test it long enough, playtest more!"
"Ok so I playtested more and.."
"That's just a random anecdote! It doesn't count!"Undone |
For those of you saying the WP has no niche I disagree.
The Niche is "Effective vs anything, anytime, anywhere." Even if it is sometimes behind someone else (IE Evil outsider paladins smiting vs the base WP).
It's like a fighter in that respect but with more potential and significantly better than late game scaling.
I have three separate WP builds in games right now. All starting from level 1. Two of them are SF/MoMS one is the Reach WP which is level 5 currently but I'm fairly confident the reach WP falls off heavily later on I'm just trying to confirm it. The Pummeling style/dragon style SF is as absurd as expected. The Pummeling style/Snake Fang SF is really strong but is having trouble drawing aggro from the GM after the first time he uses his fortuitous AOMF to crack back twice.
I'm not playing an archer WP because I find it boring but the numbers on archer WP damage are solid.
The Lancer WP is next on my list to play.
The damage from WP's are fairly high and in the case of the SF even higher than my equal level barbarian.
I think people just underestimate how powerful access to quicken spell with no LA, even in limited form, is. It literally makes the class. It can quicken spells and eventually quicken blessings. People underestimate the amount and strength of magic associated with the SM list. For reference Quickened greater dispel magic, Quicken Heal, Quicken anti life shell, Quicken summon monster 8, and quickened Dust form, and through summon monsters quickened blasphemy, heal that doesn't eat a slot and so much more. Keep in mind at 16th level (Just before 9th level magic) the WP will have access to 11 summon monster 7s, six if he quickens 5 of them. That is a LOT of free 7th level spell slots.
DM Beckett |
Its not that people are underestimating it, generally. But being able to do something cool at the later levels (and thats only a maybe), just doesnt do it. At those levels, everyone is doing crazy things. You really need to be looking primarily levels 1 to maybe 10ish. Everything after that is nice, but probably least likely to actually be played. The other thing is, just straight DPS isnt enough.
Undone |
Its not that people are underestimating it, generally. But being able to do something cool at the later levels (and thats only a maybe), just doesnt do it. At those levels, everyone is doing crazy things. You really need to be looking primarily levels 1 to maybe 10ish. Everything after that is nice, but probably least likely to actually be played. The other thing is, just straight DPS isnt enough.
From level 1-11 the only spell you actually need to be competitive in damage is divine favor. All other spells are gravy.
At level 3 a WP with 18 str and a reach build can have (even if not human) +12 damage (6 str1+1/2, 2 divine favor, 3 power attack, 1 Weapon) pretty easily with a single spell. A lancing build can have the same as a human and do enough to 1 shot anything at level while using all remaining spells but divine favor to help the group. A barbarian at level 3 would probably be doing +14 damage (7 str 1+1/2, 3 Rage, 3 PA, 1 Weapon). Being 2 points behind a barbarian while having magic, and blessings is pretty darn good damage wise.
I think the problem is that people on these forums value skills incredibly high where as I value skills incredibly low. After perception of course.
DrDeth |
DrDeth wrote:Xavier Longsaddle wrote:Three levels in one game is hardly the type of broad-based playtesting that would mean a class needs to be "fixed", is it?Hi,
I am currently playing a Warpriest at 8th level (started at 5).
I chose to go with the Champion of Faith Archetype since I wanted smite and smite is awesome.
Since it came out I have found both offense and resources wise, the inquisitor is a better class.
A better WAR priest.*I find Warpriest to be sub par*
"Don't theorycraft! Playtest!"
*Still find it sub par after some playtest*
"You didn't play test it long enough, playtest more!"
3 levels @ one table is not enough testing.
Ed Reppert |
This is probably heretical, at least for some, but...
For me, it's not about the numbers. It's about the flavor. Do I enjoy playing whatever it is? Is it fun*? Can I come up with a good backstory for the character?
I don't care if my warpriest (granting I haven't made one yet) isn't a better paladin than the Paladin, and a better fighter than the Fighter, and a better cleric than the Cleric, and so on and so on. If he's so bad that at tenth level he needs to adventure with first level characters, not tenth, that would be a problem, but I don't see that happening here.
* I can see that for some people, if the numbers aren't great, it's not fun. That's just not me.
kestral287 |
I don't really see a lot of flavor in the class that we didn't already have. You can-- and people do-- flavor Clerics the same way that you can Warpriests. Or a Paladin, for the LG Warpriest (which, I'm starting to suspect, is going to be the mechanically best one for summonspam).
Honestly the flavor inspiration still hasn't hit for me to put one together. I've been building other stuff instead because every time I look at the Warpriest I wind up staring and going "... What am I supposed to do with this again"?
swoosh |
This is probably heretical, at least for some, but...
For me, it's not about the numbers. It's about the flavor.
I think you'd be surprised to see that most of the optimizers everyone hates around here feel the same way.
Frankly though, flavor is where I think the Warpriest falls through the most.
From a thematic standpoint the class doesn't really do anything I couldn't already do with a Cleric, Oracle, Paladin or Inquisitor. At least as far as I can tell.
So for me the only reason I pick the Warpriest is for the mechanics, because the flavor niche the Warpriest fills is literally the most crowded one in the game (usually I find a blessing I like or want to do something silly like sacred weapon darts or hand crossbows... or I want to play a divine monk).
That's part of why I don't like the direction this thread took. The Warpriest is completely, 100%, entirely solid, viable, and easy to work with. It's a high T4 on a bad day. It's probably slightly weaker than the Inquisitor overall without a few special tricks, but is close enough in power for that point to be moot.
The biggest weakness of the Warpriest is that it's just kind of... boring. The +numbers are nice, but ultimately just numbers. Fighter bonus feats aren't very exciting. They didn't take a lot of risks with Blessings. Overall just an uninspiring package, but far from underperforming
BadBird |
From a thematic standpoint the class doesn't really do anything I couldn't already do with a Cleric, Oracle, Paladin or Inquisitor.... Fighter bonus feats aren't very exciting.
Using the fighter bonus feats to grab fighter-only feats as an after-thought is boring, but I don't get why people seem to think that's all they're good for.
Warpriest bonus feats are BAB=level on top of giving a character far, far more feats to work with in building a combat style. I've posted a couple of Warpriest builds in these threads - a Katana & Unarmed Strikes Two Weapon Warpriest and a Crane Style Dervish Dance Angel Wings Warpriest - that have unique themes, pretty solid benefits, and would be difficult or impossible to do with other divine classes. It seems strange to me that people (speaking generally) who would often kill for an extra feat to make a unique concept come together don't know what to do with a whole stack of them.
LazarX |
Personally, I kind of wish they would break that nasty habit of making neutrals the mechanically best alignment and requires you (and deity) to actually have the appropriate Alignment to cast a spell with Alignment Components.
Neutral Priests don't get options like Summon Good Monster.
David knott 242 |
DM Beckett wrote:Personally, I kind of wish they would break that nasty habit of making neutrals the mechanically best alignment and requires you (and deity) to actually have the appropriate Alignment to cast a spell with Alignment Components.Neutral Priests don't get options like Summon Good Monster.
Is Summon Neutral Monster inferior to Summon Good Monster?
Undone |
LazarX wrote:DM Beckett wrote:Personally, I kind of wish they would break that nasty habit of making neutrals the mechanically best alignment and requires you (and deity) to actually have the appropriate Alignment to cast a spell with Alignment Components.Neutral Priests don't get options like Summon Good Monster.Is Summon Neutral Monster inferior to Summon Good Monster?
Yes, especially at high levels.
GoldEdition42 |
Thread resurrection.
Tonight I bring in my Dwarven Warpriest of Ragathiel after our TPK of a month ago. Level 14 with Good and Destruction blessing. Sword and Board.
He looks fun and very hard to hit/kill.....with a will save of 24 (vs. spells and spellike) he should also be hard to dominate.
Good hunting everyone, whatever class you choose.
DM Beckett |
David knott 242 wrote:Yes, especially at high levels.LazarX wrote:DM Beckett wrote:Personally, I kind of wish they would break that nasty habit of making neutrals the mechanically best alignment and requires you (and deity) to actually have the appropriate Alignment to cast a spell with Alignment Components.Neutral Priests don't get options like Summon Good Monster.Is Summon Neutral Monster inferior to Summon Good Monster?
It's debatable, really. But, the fact that is exists, is basically the issue. For example, Summon Good Monster had been one of the few things that Good Aligned Characters could do that other alignments couldn't. But then Evil and Neutral got their own version, and it basically was, while still cool, just not a reward for playing Good, which is supposed to be the hardest alignment path to walk. The fact is, Non-Good and Non-Evil Alignments are actually mechanically rewarded by the system. You are either immune to certain common spells, or automatically take minimum damage/effect from them. Neutral Clerics get the entire spell list accessible to them, (as well as other classes with similar restrictions). They also get to choose between things like Channeling to harm or heal the living, even if it doesn't make any sense for the individual character in all cases. Not all Good faiths care about healing people, for instance.
DM Beckett |
I figure because it's been a little while, and there might be some new options that help the Warpriest out, or maybe people have more experiences playing it.
It also seems we will be getting the long anticipated errata soonish, too, so I'm sure people that wanted to like or love the class more than they did, or are waiting for a more playable version if they had an issue with something also plays into it.
All in all, it's not a terrible class. Doesn't really hit the Fighter/Cleric concept very close to the head, but it's still fun and interesting in little ways.
Lord Twitchiopolis |
Having actually played a Warpriest; it's all about the Bonus Feats.
Counting as a fighter of your level AND counting as having full BAB for purpose of the bonus feats is CLUTCH. That's the point where the Warpriest is going to outshine the Inquisitor.
I focused on Critical feats (using a bardiche, cause why not) and it worked swimmingly in Way of the Wicked. Swing big, high crit chance, Weapon Focus out the butt.
Other fun/stupid builds I've played with:
Daggers and throwing. Because chucking around greatswords is hilarious.
Humans and the Martial Versatility feat. Serious potential here with the
Warpriest's Sacred Weapon. Particularly with guns in Iron Gods.
Disruptive. Usually a Fighter only tree, pairing up spell casting with anti-spell casting.
Dervish Dancing. Cause everyone else is doing it.
Kalahen |
As long as we're thread necro-ing...
We've been playing with a Warpriest in the WotR AP (not mine). I'm not sure its a terribly well built Warpriest, but it did make me look over some potential Warpriest builds. I like the bonus feats, those alone make it distinct from a Cleric and give you a lot of options for playstyle (Warpriest is the only way I would ever sword and board and one of the few ways I would TWF, never ever going to play a Fighter). I like the not being alignment restricted and better spellcasting compared to a Paladin. I admit that they're a little too close to inquisitors but spontaneous vs prepared is enough of a distinction that I feel the Warpriest is a useful addition to the designspace.
I think a Warpriest is a solid Tier 3 and makes an excellent addition to any campaign that excludes Tier 1 classes, and can play well inside a campaign with Tier 1s (unlike many martials who often feel superfluous at those tables). So Warpriest doesn't need fixing in my opinion, even if Inquisitor might be a little better in combat prepared casting and bonus combat feats makes the Warpriest tempting.
What would I tweak? Have blessings add spells to the spell list, give 1 spell for every level of casting but you have to choose only 1 spell from your 2 blessings. It would make blessings feel more fun and also allow them a chance to even out the power of various blessings.
Rynjin |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not just that the Inquisitor is better at combat (which he is. By a MILE. He has all the good buffs the Warpriest has, plus a lot he DOESN'T, plus Bane, plus Judgement, plus Domains...), he's also better at OUT of combat and utility (4 extra skills per level, massive Sense Motive and Intimidate boost, massive boost to Monster Knowledges, especially with the Improved Monster Lore Feat, potential ability to say "f$!$ Cha" and use Wis for all social skills, etc.) and at casting (their spell list actually fits the progression it follows).
The Warpriest, in exchange, gets:
-Faster qualifying for Feats (neat, I guess)
-Fervor (good...but not groundbreaking since their spellcasting is gimped)
-Blessings (most of which are garbage)
-Sacred Weapon Enhancement (only lasts ROUNDS PER LEVEL. Compare/Contrast Divine Bond and the Magus' Arcane Pool, which have the same action economy, same effect, but last for a minute per use instead of rounds per day)
-Sacred Weapon dice increase (which doesn't even function for most gods, and a dice increase ain't exactly great anyway)
-Sacred Armor (weirdly inflexible, and flexibility is the ENTIRE POINT of abilities like this)
-Channel Energy (which you'll never use because it eats Fervor)
-Bonus Feats (whoop-dee-doo)
-Bonus Languages (WOW SO COOL)
The Warpriest class is both uninspired niche-wise and mechanically. It comes off looking unfavorably next to every other class that can fill the same niche.
EmberKin |
The Warpriest class is both uninspired niche-wise and mechanically. It comes off looking unfavorably next to every other class that can fill the same niche.
I really wanted to like Warpriest, but I have to agree it just doesn't have the skills to pay the bills. Other than being a Holy Beatstick, Warpriest doesn't excel at anything. Sadly, it's not even the best at filling that role. Cherry picking a few spells of the Paladin/Inquisitor lists isn't going to fix a class that is mechanically flawed.