It's really an eye of the beholder thing. As scripted in the AP she's cornered in E4 when encountered - the room she's in is small and she has little room to maneuver. And it's only her and 1 hound. The action economy for most parties puts her at a disadvantage. And that's with a "standard" 4 pc party. Your group of 5 pc's and 2 npc's will have a 7-2 action advantage over her every round. Her additional 2 character levels don't even that out. And if your group has any tactical sense at all and the highest AC pc (typically the fighter) is in front and a healer is behind, it's only a matter of time. She may do more damage per round but the group can both damage and heal where she can only do one or the other. The hound's howl may help - if there are some failed saves it might split the party and turn the tide. But otherwise, say goodbye to the loopy aasimar.
Of course if you don't have a high AC character, or you don't have a healer or you foolishly let her at the softer (AC, hp) characters first you might be in real trouble. Especially if there are failed will saves against the howl.
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I used an massively improved version of Nualia (with 2 Yeth hounds and I think my pc's may have been level 3) vs 5 pc's and while the fight made them sweat which and incapacitated several of them there was no real danger of a tpk. As Latrceis says the problem is the action economy. Given her modest initiative modifier it is entirely possible the fight you are worried about will go like this
Nualia loses initiative and goes last
7 PC's act , Nualia is dead
end of fight
She does not have the hp to stand against multiple attacks.
She is also very unlikely to kill a pc even with her high damage , even a wizard probably has 19 hp, 1 hit drops him negative and then someone stabilizes him unless she crits she won't kill with one shot and she does not have the time to kill people who are down if she wants to try and win.
You have to make some fights difficult and dangerous for the pc's or risk is meaningless and if none of the boss fights are a threat then they won't be remembered as significant.
My version was an antipaladin with a falchion and even that was not enough to stand a real chance of winning and lasted 2-3 rounds. Both yeth hounds were dropped with sleep spells and everyone else piled into Nualia
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Your party will bring her down in 1-3 rounds. Seriously. My players party consisting at that time from 4 lvl magus, inquisitor, summoner and totally noncombat (only charming, only nonlethal debuff) witch killed her in 4-5 rounds (and all fight, witch stayed in corridor, mostly speaking with Orik, who didn't participate in the battle too). And she was backed by one yeth hound and Lirye.
Nualia is a fine example of the map being a big part of the encounter.
If the party is able to bypass the trap in front of her lair - and sneak up on her - *then* avoid running from the hound - she isn't too bad.
If however they trigger the trap - manage to get feared into the trap and or have other issues like that - and she moves into the hallway - or the hound does and she uses her bow... it becomes a much harder fight.
the hallway prevents her from fighting many at one time - the odds are you *might* only have a single PC able to use acrobatics to move through her square - and then it's a single BBEG up against a single PC - and the stats at that point don't lean in the PC's favor.
So in reality - it depends. This one in particular a stealthy, careful party shouldn't have an issue.
I've read some posts describing her as too easy. But my players (5 x lvl 4 plus 2 npcs) have just entered her sanctum and she's fully buffed up. Aside from the Yeth Hound probably scaring a few of them, Nualia is then going to be hitting at +12 for 1d10 +18, as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure why people think this is easy. I feel a TPK coming.
Nualia was a nightmare for us the first time we ran through this.
The group had successfully recruited Orik via Charm Person before descending to the lower level where the Hobgoblin Braz had already alerted the others after his narrow escape. The PC's faced Tsuto (whom had escaped the Glassworks), Kyrie and Braz, beginning the encounter having to deal with a Grease spell at the bottom of the stairs. Meanwhile Nualia and the Yeth Hound observed the conflict from the end of the hall on the other side of the statue trap. When the tide turned, she sent the Yeth Hound (who can fly remember) to join the fray which made it tougher. When the last of them fell, Nualia fled. We triggered the trap (ouch) then followed her to the crypts where she cast Obscuring Mist, exposing herself to the Shadows there, but catching us up in them as well - then she retreated to the edge of the Mist and attacked us as we came out.
One of the toughest encounters I've ever had at that level.
It's great to read your experiences and see how differently it can play out.
Can I get your feedback on Malfeshnekor as well, regarding my questions?
I think both of those are excellent questions and I don't have an answer for you except to say that Charm Monster would make one friendly even if they didn't share a language for spoken commands.
In our game we missed all of that stuff on the lower levels (Mal, the hermit crab, etc.) and we didn't stick around to finish the Shadows. Later we were recruited by a pair of Druids who wanted to inhabit Thistletop to com whelp them cleanse the place of the evil they sensed still resided within... that was when we went in and cleared the whole area out, including the Tentamort, the Bunyip, the Shadows, the Hermit Crab and Mal - as well as a pair of Harpies our GM added in. It was like a whole new dungeon.
Sorry, I'm quite an inexerienced GM, the questions keep coming!
Further to this level: Malfeshnekor.
[1] The brief is that he casts rage, but I don't see that on his/ Greater Barghest's list.
[2] He has Charm Monster for the range N/Pcs hanging outside the door but he only speaks goblin, infernal and worg. Presumably he gets one shot at guessing which of those 3 languages his target may speak?
1) That's a typo due to his spell list having rage in the 3.5 version. Ignore it.
2) His original write up had full stats and a custom build - he had the following languages:
common, giant, goblin, worg, infernal.
I'd personally give him the languages in the new version.
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Charm isn't actually language dependent, much to the chagrin of my diplomancer gnome bard.
Sure, you need a language to make specific requests, but you can charm a creature without speaking its language if you just want it to feel like you're best buds.
I had my first TPK with Nualia. They found Lyrie upstairs and attacked. She fled, ran downstairs to the trapped hall, and called to Nualia to turn off the trap. Once she got beyond the trap and it was reactivated she taunted the barbarian, who leaped over the trap, getting right into her face. Having misread the spell, I had her shatter the barbarian's only melee weapon. At the same time, Nualia finally walked out, pissed at the interruption. The Sorcerer accidentally triggered the trap, causing the portcullises to fall, trapping the now unarmed barbarian with Nualia, Lyrie, and 2 Yeth Hounds.
Then, I ended the session.
The next session, the barbarian managed to survive, mostly because I felt bad for him, and I had Nualia go back into her room and start casting her buffs. The 2 Yeth Hounds came out and kept him company until the portcullises receded. The party ran in to help and half of them were feared by Yeth Hound howls. The divide and conquer are what actually killed the party, as 3 partymembers couldn't fend off Lyrie, Nualia, and 2 Yeth Hounds.
I had my first TPK with Nualia. They found Lyrie upstairs and attacked. She fled, ran downstairs to the trapped hall, and called to Nualia to turn off the trap. Once she got beyond the trap and it was reactivated she taunted the barbarian, who leaped over the trap, getting right into her face. Having misread the spell, I had her shatter the barbarian's only melee weapon. At the same time, Nualia finally walked out, pissed at the interruption. The Sorcerer accidentally triggered the trap, causing the portcullises to fall, trapping the now unarmed barbarian with Nualia, Lyrie, and 2 Yeth Hounds.
Then, I ended the session.
The next session, the barbarian managed to survive, mostly because I felt bad for him, and I had Nualia go back into her room and start casting her buffs. The 2 Yeth Hounds came out and kept him company until the portcullises receded. The party ran in to help and half of them were feared by Yeth Hound howls. The divide and conquer are what actually killed the party, as 3 partymembers couldn't fend off Lyrie, Nualia, and 2 Yeth Hounds.
There are some real killer scenarios for low level characters in Burnt Offerings - Elyrium (or whatever her name is) can fly, turn invisible at will, has DR and fast healing and can summon monsters, among other things. All vs. a 2nd level group.
Nualia, meanwhile, is a hell of a tank and those Yeth hounds can hammer multiple AoE fear effects. That alone is a nightmare and when you factor in the likely participation of her minions...
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I had to add Bruthamuz to the mix, and reskinned the Yeth hound to a Shadow Mastiff, just to keep my group 0f 6 challenged.
3 rounds in she had to activate necklace to gain temporary HP and survive. She charmed one of the fighters to help her attempt to escape, and eventually surrendered.
Now granted, two players went to negative hp, but no deaths.
So she's a captive now, and headed back to and answer for what she has done.
I had to add Bruthamuz to the mix, and reskinned the Yeth hound to a Shadow Mastiff, just to keep my group 0f 6 challenged.
3 rounds in she had to activate necklace to gain temporary HP and survive. She charmed one of the fighters to help her attempt to escape, and eventually surrendered.
Now granted, two players went to negative hp, but no deaths.So she's a captive now, and headed back to and answer for what she has done.
Quick recommendation - have her sent to Magnimar for trial and then have her sprung by Skinsaw cultists en route, Ironbriar having gotten his orders to see it so from the Lamia who view her as a potentially valuable recruit.
Quick recommendation - have her sent to Magnimar for trial and then have her sprung by Skinsaw cultists en route, Ironbriar having gotten his orders to see it so from the Lamia who view her as a potentially valuable recruit.I had to add Bruthamuz to the mix, and reskinned the Yeth hound to a Shadow Mastiff, just to keep my group 0f 6 challenged.
3 rounds in she had to activate necklace to gain temporary HP and survive. She charmed one of the fighters to help her attempt to escape, and eventually surrendered.
Now granted, two players went to negative hp, but no deaths.So she's a captive now, and headed back to and answer for what she has done.
Or you could just outright tell your players they shouldn't take prisoners. Having each prisoner escape off-stage where the players have no control just because the DM thinks it would be "cool" or is way more attached to the NPC than the players is just another more frustrating way to say the same thing. Another alternative: kick each player in the shin.
Our heroes drag Nualia back to Sandpoint and the Mayor and its citizens respond with "Put her on the next bus to Magnimar" as if she sold liquor without a license or drove her wagon too fast through town? Really? Nualia and her minions are directly responsible for several deaths in Sandpoint, taught the local goblins that attacking the town is a good idea and worship a demon goddess from the Abyss. Seems more likely the players would have to fight off a lynch mob than witness a meek deferral to Magnimar. But that's just me.
And then have her rise as a Gravenight later on in the story...There are several ways of ensuring the reoccurrence of a villain, if that is your objective.
Nualia became a recurring enemy in our campaign.
She was remade as an Antipaladin by our GM, I don't know how much he boosted her but she was very hard to fight. In our first encounter with her, she dropped a couple of us before using a spell-storing tattoo of dimension door to escape.
Then she sneaked into the orphanage in Sandpoint, taking hostages and sending a message to our paladin challenging her to do something about it. At the time, we were at the sanatorium and had used some of our spells.
So we rushed back and our sneaky types started sneaking in while the paladin shouted a conversation with Nualia to keep her busy...whereupon Nualia used her refreshed tattoo to dimension door to the paladin and my wizard. By this time, our paladin had a cohort paladin but we lost initiative. Nualia used smite good to drop me, then dropped the cohort. The sneaking rogue and summoner hurried back, using the summoner's own dimension door and got dropped in turn by Nualia who was not only smiting, she was rolling critical after critical while our paladin kept rolling 1 or 2 and missing. Eventually, after some emergency healing brought some of us back into action (the rogue had faked being unconscious) we finally killed her. It was an epic fight.
Much later, she returned from the dead as a demon and attacked us in Xin-Shalast along with the Lamia Matriarch, a Gravenight version of the goblin riding dog leader and Khalib...
I've just done that, but I won't have a "combat-test" result until this coming weekend (when my first RotR group finally corners her in Thistletop).
I've been debating about rebuilding Nualia as a Warpriest. Do you think that might make her too much of an obstacle, giving her swift action buffing as an option?
I'm going to be doing this. I don't think it'll be that much of a game-changer. Give it a playtest if you think it might be too rough for your party.
I rebuilt her as an antipaladin, gave her an escape option (Dimension door spell tattoo), and an arrow attractor to stop my PC gunslingers dropping her in the first round.
I switched her to use a Falchion rather than a bastard sword as that is her gods favoured weapon and gave her full plate.
Warpriest would work as well but was not available then
Pretty much as I predicted.
You have quite a large party , you probably need to boost most boss fights so they do not die in 1 round.
The crit from the barbarian probably speeded things up but the outcome was pretty inevitable.
As long as everyone is having fun ,including the GM, Then the GM is not a bad GM.
Balancing fights is difficult and if you are not playing with the AP assumption (4 15 point build PC's) you will need to upgrade at least some encounters. Even then every GM has a fight end too quickly or as bad or worse actually inflict a TPK instead of the more fun activity of threatening one.
This week I killed or disabled 3 of 5 characters (16th level pc's) with a single 7th level spell (Prismatic spray) fortunately the party was able to retreat and resurrect/restore to sanity/find on the Astral plane the effected pc's but if that set of bad rolls had happened in a major fight it would probably have been a TPK and that was a routine encounter
As long as everyone is having fun ,including the GM, Then the GM is not a bad GM.
Balancing fights is difficult and if you are not playing with the AP assumption (4 15 point build PC's) you will need to upgrade at least some encounters. Even then every GM has a fight end too quickly or as bad or worse actually inflict a TPK instead of the more fun activity of threatening one.
This week I killed or disabled 3 of 5 characters (16th level pc's) with a single 7th level spell (Prismatic spray) fortunately the party was able to retreat and resurrect/restore to sanity/find on the Astral plane the effected pc's but if that set of bad rolls had happened in a major fight it would probably have been a TPK and that was a routine encounter
Yep, that was the second worst result we've had since the game started. Nualia dropped more of us, the second time we met her.
Prismatic Spray has been the single most effective spell cast on us so far. The Mithril Mage killed our slayer with it earlier.
Well, my first RotR group have now encountered Nualia in her Warpriest incarnation. (The second group has only just finished the Glassworks.)
This group is not optimised, and consists of a Fighter, Rogue, Bard, and Oracle.
First, a bit of backstory. Due to previous party actions and decisions, Erylium and Lyrie had both escaped their first encounters with the party and joined forces with Nualia. Erylium is the perfect spy/scout/watch(wo)man, what with her 50' fly speed, invisibility at will, and a +41 Stealth modifier (when flying invisible), so the party was never going to get the drop on Nualia. Lyrie also has some spells which can give an adventurer a seriously bad day during combat, e.g., Ray of Enfeeblement. Which Erylium also has! So I was very wary of a potential TPK, particularly with a yeth hound or more in the mix as this group does not have very good Will saves. (Aside from the "static" monsters, everyone else in Thistletop had been killed or otherwise removed.)
I ended up letting the party encounter Erylium and two yeth hounds in the temple at Thistletop. As expected, the dogs caused trouble before going down, and Erylium escaped yet again.
The party then started exploring the second dungeon level at Thistletop, and I decided that the three ladies (and remaining dog) were waiting in the L-shaped hall.
When the party (after disarming the hall trap) then decided to go upstairs again without exploring further, it seemed logical that Nualia order her remaining dog to be made invisible and then placed in the hellcat's hall, plus the hall trap be re-armed. I had also planned to put an invisible Nualia there, but the party was near the very end of its resources, and I could tell that if I did so, then it certainly would be a TPK (particularly as the fighter and rogue were hit by the dog's opening fear effect, leaving just the bard and oracle). With a great deal of trouble, the party managed to kill the third dog before retreating to heal overnight. Yes, I may have been a softy there, but I wasn't deliberately looking for a TPK.
So I was left with Nualia, Lyrie, and Erylium. The next day, they again set up an ambush in the L-shaped hall. This time, the party walked right into it. Nualia opened up with maximum damage (but not a critical), and two party members were hit by Rays of Enfeeblement, courtesy of Lyrie and Erylium. During the course of the combat, Nualia let loose with two channellings of 2d6 negative energy (of course she has the feat to de-select her allies), and rolled well on both.
At this point, I was getting nervous again of dishing out an accidental TPK. So I didn't play Nualia as ruthlessly as I could have. If I had done so, and with Lyrie and Erylium backing her up, I think that it quite likely would have ended in a TPK for the party.
As it was, Nualia almost got away before being taken prisoner, and will likely die if the party doesn't realise that she has False Life cast on her. Erylium is only dead because she tried to rescue her valued pupil and so got trapped in a 10' by 10' room with a cloud of flour and two very unamused party members, one of whom had both cold iron arrows and a Gravity Bow spell running. Ironically, Lyrie - the only one with a kamikaze clause in her tactics section - escaped into the woods on the mainland. (I'll have to consider how she might make the party's life difficult when they get to Magnimar.)
If, on the other hand, a party encounters the Warpriest version of Nualia plus one yeth hound, it might not be so dangerous.
Good point! :)
(I'm used to the rage-based extra hit points, which work differently.)
I've been experimenting with stating her up as a Oracle of the Outer Rifts 6, which lets her transform into a demon gradually through her revelations. Also giving her the Demonic curse, naturally. FCB boosted demonhide still gives her solid AC without slowing her movement speed down. (That's gotta be an error in her original stat block, right? Can't see how she still has 30 move speed.) I'm giving her a belt of incredible dexterity to accommodate for her not knowing cat's grace and to replace the missing loot of the +1 breastplate. Also, I didn't buy she could be wearing a breastplate with so much exposed midriff, haha. Vermin Shape gives her access to some flight if she needs to escape.
I may need to throw on a level of anti-paladin so she still has weapon proficiencies. I'm thinking Visions of Hell coupled with Planar Haze will make for a pretty flavorful distortion of the battlefield, while not being as unbalancing as a third level spell could. She's gonna be able to spam more spells though, which should be fun. I'm figuring lots of Shatters and Cause Fears, plus the potential to keep herself healed up a lot more.
I'm also going to change the weapon to a Falchion, for reasons mentioned above.
I just think her assigned role by Lamashtu sounds a lot more Oracle-y than anything else.
A common thing I do with boss monsters to prevent the "bad init roll, boss dies" effect is to just set the boss initiative as if they "took 10".
Its not an unfair advantage, and it prevents a roll of 2 or 3 from buggering it all up.
Initiative cascades don't just start when initiative is rolled. The fact that a party of four GETS four rolls vrs the boss's one is a big factor. Which goes up with extra party members and cohorts. If even one goes before the boss, smart use of readied actions can be devastating.
Short version: let bosses take 10 on initiative. Its fair, and prevents booring floor-moppings.
I've been waffling on what build I like best for her, between Oracle, Anti-Paladin, and Warpriest. The latter puts her surprisingly close to her book statblock, but can let her buff up even if she gets surprised. Anti-Paladin is strong, simple, and very dangerous with the aura of cowardice Yeth Hound combo. But I think I like the flavor on the Oracle best, and it's the only option that leaves her with the ability to outrun the party should that need arise.
Also, one of my players dropped out mid-Thistletop, and thinks his NE Gaslighter Mesmerist would probably just throw in with Nualia anyway, so I think I'm going to have him backing her up. Assuming I let him hit level 4 even though he left the party, I need to come up with how he should participate in combat. The Mesmerist has lots of ways of shutting people down with it's enchantment bonuses, but I worry that will be too frustrating. Pondering if yanking someone into a psychic duel might be more fun, for example.
Is it in error in the anniversary edition or is that her real stats beefed up? Seemed low when I did the quick read and now I am going to be prepping for that encounter?
Is it in error in the anniversary edition or is that her real stats beefed up?
Yes, the anniversary edition has errors in her stat block. Specifically, it gives her the AC penalty for Fury of the Abyss, but it doesn't give her the attack bonus for it. Her attack line should read: +1 bastard sword +12 (1d10+8 / 19-20) and claw +5 (1d6+5). She gets that for 6 rounds, if she uses a swift action at the start of each round.
If you're not going to have her use that, then get rid of the AC penalty from Fury of the Abyss. Either way boosts her -- drop Fury and she's harder to hit, or use Fury and she hits harder.
Also, note that while her "Before Combat" tactics are already figured into her stats, the "During Combat" tactics are not. Personally, I will not have her casting Divine Favor at any point -- that's a wasted turn. She'll get hit a ton and die before she can use the advantage of that spell. However, the other thing listed in her "During Combat" tactics is that she "activates her Sihedron medallion as a free action at the start of combat to gain False Life." Free action? Absolutely. That's an extra 1d10+5 hit points for her, right at the start of the fight.
The combat encounter is relying on the Yeth Hound to even out the odds a little bit. I think the author's hope was that at least 1 or 2 PCs will fail the saving throw against the hound's "Bay" attack and run, giving Nualia slightly better odds and a chance to last an extra round or two because of it. However, the DC is only 12. I'd bet all my players pass that, first try. So my thought is to pull in one of the hounds from earlier in Thistletop, so that Nualia has two of them. Passing a DC 12 Will save twice should be much more difficult.
If you have 2 yeth hounds baying, and Nualia channels negative energy, she might severely whittle down the party. Or she could full attack on a weaker PC, like a wizard with low AC and low HP. She might be able to take 1 PC out of combat quickly, evening the odds even more.
Q about this:
I see a lot of references to PCs discovering the trap, avoiding it, then being yeth-hounded back into it and setting it off. Even panicked PCs are supposed to run from dangers they encounter during their flight, so if they know where the trap is, how are they getting forced into it?
Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path.
1) pending on where the hound and the pc's are, fleeing back into the trap may be the only path away from the hound. Example: Nualia or the hound hear the pc's messing with the trap and the hound steps out of its room to bay while the pc's are still in the hall. No other path other than back the way they came.
2) Even if the panicked pc's could flee into the rest of the dungeon, randomly some will end up in the hallway with the trap.
Panicked indicates unreasoned flight; not well-considered, judicious flight.
Of course, smart pc's will have disabled the trap not simply bypassed it so they can't be harmed by it should they have to retreat.
I guess I'm just tripped up on the "as well as any other dangers it encounters" part. If there's literally no other way to go, I'd have to play it situationally as to whether they risk the trap or just hide and cower.