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My wife is playing Pathfinder with my group. She is only half interested most of the time, but she played without me one day and had to pay attention. She did very well and came up with some pretty good ideas that won the day and is now paying a little closer attention to her character.

She is a 7th level Dwarven Cleric of Torag (Mythic Tier 2) and is about to level up. I have made a stew out of my character with level dips and I have mentioned the option to her. My problem is that I'm not sure what is best and how much is too much. She is a little bit squishy with a +0 DEX, so no AC bump and a bad Reflex save. WIS is at 20, CHA is at 14, and STR is at 11, so I recommended her 8th level point go to STR since she has a pretty nifty hammer of smackiness.

Here are my thoughts so far:
Monk 2 for WIS to AC & Evasion (primarily), bonus feats (Dodge and Scorpion Style?), Good saves, Flurry and Stunning Fist (and Scorp.) for touch attack spells.

Paladin 2 for Divine Grace (primarily) with the next mythic +2 going to CHA, Smite works with her hammer, best thematic fit for PC.

We talked a little bit about her specializing in Knowledge since we don't have a Bard. She's a brainy person, so that sounded interesting to her probably at a bit of a detriment to her melee prowess. In light of this...

Oracle 1 Lore Mystery, Lore Keeper Revelation (+ Extra Rev. feat and Sidestep Secret to help a little with squishiness). Curse: ?

Inquisitor 1 mostly for the knowledge bump from Monster Lore, but the skills would be helpful, the saves are decent and the Judgment could be useful. Domain Powers stack, so she wouldn't lose that bump.

...Or, should we just stick with Ceric? I know this is mostly personal preference, but I'd be happy to be shown any pros or cons or other suggestions I may not have thought of. I did look at Tark's Big Book, but I think I'll have to steer clear of Alchemist and Synthesist or anything too far out of the ordinary and difficult to understand. Thanks in advance.

20 wisdom and 11 strength seems more like a caster than a melee character. I would stay cleric, or maybe find a prestige class that has full casting progression.

It's unfortunate this is t getting more attention. Is her character in play or starting at 7? Stick with cleric is my advice. If your wanting to get into melee then channel smite/ guided hand to replace strength with wisdom on warhammer attacks. If you don't the stick support. You can make the cleric do whatever you want.
Silver Crusade

She's best off sticking single classed Cleric. Cleric casting power increases geometrically with level. Any sort of multi-classed dip she did might give a temporary boost but would surely be a power downgrade.

It's a little late, at 8th level, for her to get more smacky. With a mere 11 or 12 strength she won't be a serious melee combatant without piling on the buffs. E.g. If she is able to pre-buff and stacks Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Divine Favor, and Weapon of Awe (before combat begins, never once it has already begun!!!!) her +1 hammer attacks are about +11 to hit for 1d6?+7. In that Clericzilla mode she can hit decently, but still can't dish out appreciable damage to CR 8 foes.

Her 20 WIS already makes her a very capable caster. Work that. A 9th level cleric gets a lot of powerful offensive spells (e.g. Plane Shift, Wall of Stone, Flame Strike), and she already has some pretty decent ones. Her best bet is probably to power-up her casting ability.

Here are some spells that use her high DC or are otherwise awesome:

4th - Clessing of Fervor (best buff in the game), Aura of Doom (DC19!), Holy Smite (DC19!), Order's Wrath (DC19)

In the meantime she should be making excellent use of the low-level cleric spells where DC matters. E.g. Sanctuary, Command, Murderous Command, Silence, et cetera.

Great use for her DC16+ 1st level Command spell:
This is an oldy but a goody. Position herself ~30 from a foe who understands spoken language, behind several allied martial combatants. Cast Command and command the foe to Apprach. On a failed save that foe will waste its next turn, draw multiple AoOs from her allies, and will be left in an awful tactical position. Few survive the AoOs.

Thanks for all your input. I talked things over with the DM and his advice and yours have convinced me that sticking with Cleric is probably best. For some reason Guided Hand slipped my mind and we will definitely be using that. Her hammer gives her Channel Smite so he waved that requirement. With any luck, she'll hit mythic tier 3 either at the same time, or right after level 9 so she could get the mythic version of that feat as well giving her WIS to hit and damage. Should be good stuff.

Magda you may have forgotten to add the spell level to those DCs you linked.
Silver Crusade
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Magda you may have forgotten to add the spell level to those DCs you linked.

Indeed, those DCs were just a guess. The DCs are good, regardless, and thus worth using Save-or-Suck spells.

Magda Luckbender wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Magda you may have forgotten to add the spell level to those DCs you linked.
Indeed, those DCs were just a guess. The DCs are good, regardless, and thus worth using Save-or-Suck spells.

agreed.

a cleric can alsways melee.... even with str of 6.
a cleric isnt about being the best - its about making others the best.
if meleeis needed summon a beast stick - and buff it silly. he will be your tool .
buff the main ranger \ fighter and make him an avatar - than hide behind him .
take the punishment of the tank with shield other - and heal yourself form afar.
clerics have tools - not all of them are self made.
Grand Lodge

I would listen to Luckbender. I value his/her opinion on clerics most the time. Luckbender has a lot of experience playing a cleric and is less jaded then I am about the class. I play my clerics now as full casters and hard pressed not to take Evangelist archetype. I vomit slightly when I see channel clerics and just sigh at battle clerics. Tho Luckbender has a really nice reach cleric who puts early levels in melee and after 5 switches to a summoner but still slips in AoO every chance possible. If your looking for a cleric who may swing a weapon I would take Luckbender advice. Under a 14 means your missing a lot even with your highest BaB. And missing your standard action is terrible compared to using it to cast.

Luckbender we should work on a Evangelist cleric guide. We both tend to always recommend it on a weekly. Lol

Is that even possible to write an evangelist cleric guide? I mean the possibilities are so many it's hard to comprehend. I mean you have a legit reason to channel so you have to sort the good channeling strata from the bad just for starts. On top of that you would have to link to every guide made for each specific sub type of cleric (support, battle, reach, etc) because of said evangelist requiring so little you could be any of them. I could go on.
Grand Lodge

Actually as a evanglist cleric you just say F- channeling and grab a varient channeling feature.

As an evangelist there is no "support" build as just doing a performance is typically doing the support part of the class. So every build of an evangelist is support.

Both Luckbender and I have agreed in other posts that Healing focused clerics are just a terrible way to play a cleric. Completely sub-par.

This leaves summon focused, enchantment focused, reach clerics.

Each has different domains that are better for each build. Since you only get 1 domain picking the right one for the build is very important.

Some of the other guides are out of date or core only. Some of them are completely full of sub optimal builds/suggestions. Of course some would be referenced wether in a good or bad light.

Adding tricks like above post on command. Luckbender mentioned the approach method and in other posts I have mentioned the drop method of command.

Some other guides rate spells based on vanilla cleric...a spiritual weapon from a evangelist cleric actually takes the spell from orange level and progresses it to green if not blue for a 2nd level spell.

Letting newer players know that you only need to waste 1 skill point on perform oratory is some helpful info and allows the new player to not make the mistake of maxing a skill he will see very little return on.

There actually would be a lot to cover for the archetype considering it is THE BEST archetype cleric has to offer.

Yes there is so much to cover. If I may throw out a section to you that you didn't mention (almost certainly because of the size of post), the battle cleric.

I personally like combining a battle cleric, as tark labeled em, with evangelist. Demon domain, inspire courage with lingering performance as a move or swift later on, high strength, cleric spells, and so on combines for a great character. Heck you can add a reach weapon to that madness if your so inclined.
Grand Lodge

Yes that is why I would want to team with luckbender. When discussing a battle cleric I know they work but im typically against them. I prefer the reach version myself if I must swing a weapon. But when I play a cleric I hardly swing one if ever. I play as a full caster myself.
Silver Crusade

Sure, Fruian and your alter egos, let's attempt to write a guide. I suggest we take the conversation off-board until we come back requesting community advice. At some future date, many months from now, we might come up with something. Or not. :-)

i played ton of clerics, and mostly love them all.
i found that the ""best"" clerics are either pure malle with summon spark or a heavy support caster with minor melee options.

a battle cleric is best, in my eyes as follows:
Gorum, ferocity & heroism (glory) or rage.
channel smite negative energy, guided hand and the domains give a lot of extra dice.
focus on self buff and summon .

as a support cleric, i mostly start with str of 14 tops.
my favorite is a trade (travel) & heroism domain.
long spear for reach malee with divine favor and power attack offer all the damage a cleric need.
focus on make others shine, buff, summon and attack.
use either enlarge with combat reflexes or spring attack for melee.

Battle clerics need their own guide honestly. For example demon subdomain is arguably better than any two domains when you get enough attacks. Heroism was once a standard domain but as I said above, just be an evangelist. I mean the performances are greater than an entire domain?!! We need to get a small group of cleric experts together and objectively analyze this stuff as even tarks guide is now out of date except for new-ish players or new to cleric players.

The problem I see is who is reliable enough to have such a discussion? I can say that I know a LOT about clerics but I sometimes fall into the trap of maximizing em to the point I don't often give enough credit to the material that would be labeled green color in most guides. As a reult I'm not the guy to update the guide(s).
Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Battle clerics need their own guide honestly. For example demon subdomain is arguably better than any two domains when you get enough attacks. Heroism was once a standard domain but as I said above, just be an evangelist. I mean the performances are greater than an entire domain?!! We need to get a small group of cleric experts together and objectively analyze this stuff as even tarks guide is now out of date except for new-ish players or new to cleric players.

The problem I see is who is reliable enough to have such a discussion? I can say that I know a LOT about clerics but I sometimes fall into the trap of maximizing em to the point I don't often give enough credit to the material that would be labeled green color in most guides. As a reult I'm not the guy to update the guide(s).

i am sorry, i dont agree with you at all about the archetype evangelist.

1) no spontaneous cast of healing >> you need to memorize healing >> you have a lot less spells per day. (a cleric isnt a band aid, but some healing is needed. )
2) many groups already have 1 bard - making the evangelist useless , in such a group, a heroism and X cleric > evangelist by big numbers.

Thread Derail:
Isn't an oracle of battle, now that Divine Protection is available, the stronger option for a battle cleric/divine melee combatant?
If you go high level, Divine Vessel is also stronger than Frightful Aspect.

Especially when playing mythic: Skill Focus Survival + Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline + Mythic Eldritch Heritage + Robe of Arcane Heritage gives you a lot of strong abilities over the course of your whole career:

+level/2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls and will saves (standard action, super strong with Enduring Performance (mythic trickster ability) or with the quicken spell-like ability feat and a certain campaign trait (Optimistic Gambler from Second Darkness) OR you could just buff your archer
+2 natural armor
immunity to fear
+6 inherent bonus to strength
+other nice things...
For reference:
Orc Bloodline on pfsrd
666bender wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Battle clerics need their own guide honestly. For example demon subdomain is arguably better than any two domains when you get enough attacks. Heroism was once a standard domain but as I said above, just be an evangelist. I mean the performances are greater than an entire domain?!! We need to get a small group of cleric experts together and objectively analyze this stuff as even tarks guide is now out of date except for new-ish players or new to cleric players.

The problem I see is who is reliable enough to have such a discussion? I can say that I know a LOT about clerics but I sometimes fall into the trap of maximizing em to the point I don't often give enough credit to the material that would be labeled green color in most guides. As a reult I'm not the guy to update the guide(s).

i am sorry, i dont agree with you at all about the archetype evangelist.

1) no spontaneous cast of healing >> you need to memorize healing >> you have a lot less spells per day. (a cleric isnt a band aid, but some healing is needed. )
2) many groups already have 1 bard - making the evangelist useless , in such a group, a heroism and X cleric > evangelist by big numbers.

another problem with evangelist:

the big + about a cleric's spell list is that it is full of situational spells.
resist energy , divination etc - are great spells - but not usable always. a cleric can take them and worse case - heal some more..

The best PrC and dip for cleric is cleric. Look at the level 5 cleric spell list and see why.

are you talking about the prestige evangelist or the archetype ??

Debilitating Portent is a spell I love for a high wis cleric.

The fact that it isn't just reliant on an all or nothing single saving throw, but lasts the whole duration with a save each time it would come into effect, is what I like so much.

That and Fleshworm Infestation for the same reason, though I can't imagine Torag approving of that one so much.

The spiritual weapon spells are nice and Torag-y, probably.

I really want to make a character that uses Touch of Mercy and Hymn of Mercy as well at some point.

Clerics seem to get a lot of funky non-standard enchantment spells.

Thanks to everyone who is staying on topic...

We decided to stick with Cleric. We retrained her Improved Initiative feat for Guided Hand. Being that our PCs are mythic, that and the Mythic Guided Hand will very nicely address any melee concerns (WIS to hit and damage).

While I agree that this is the best course for the time being, I have read (and it seems) that there are no real capstone abilities for the Cleric. Unless I'm missing something, taking a one level dip into another class (depending on the class) would cause her to miss out on +1 BAB, +1 to Fort and Will, +1 8th and 9th level spells, +1 use per day of her Holy Lance ability (Good domain power), Immunity to Acid (as opposed to the resist 20 she will already have (Earth Domain power)). It seems the biggest loss is the spells, but since she is mythic, Inspired Spell allows her to cast any spell on the cleric list spontaneously at the cost of a mythic point. I think this more than makes up for the loss of two spells.

With this in mind, is there now a 1 level dip worth taking?

Also, is anyone familiar with the Divine Scion PrC? It maintains full spell progression and appears to trade channel progression for bonuses to attack specific alignment. Is there something I'm missing?

Monk.
Crusader flurry with a weapon of te god - that you also have guided hand in....
2 to all saves .
Full bab when flurry, -1 otherwise.
Wisdom to armor - is better than most armors.
Free feat.
Great 1d6 when opponent is near you.
Work the best if weapon of choice is a reach weapon.
All with the price of a caster and domain slower progression

Maybe sacredFist warpriest if you want a monk level. See which gives you more what you want since they are very similar. You'd get blessings.

I feel a dip depends on how high and how fast you level. Because that slower spell progression means you might never get that next spell level. Or not have that spell you need in the situation.

for a dip you'd probably just pick on of the full BAB classes. Paladin has smite evil and heavy armor, ranger has favored enemy. Gunslinger for guns, or brawler, slayer, swashbuckler.
But unless there's something you want from them, or want to get out of cleric, going full cleric is as strong as anything else you'd get. having better spells sooner is great.

I really want to like the Monk, but a non-magic breastplate and shield give her +8 to her AC. It will take her a long time to get there from +5 with WIS. I don't see her ever opting for unarmed strike rather than swinging her hammer under most circumstances. The Flurry and Blessings are interesting, but she doesn't have the feat available for the flurry.

If the Character is melee focused then a martial dip maybe helps, go for better armor. If they aren't melee focused then staying cleric is better overall than any dip you can do. a Dip in fighter for a feat or paladin for smite are really the ones I'd recommend if they are going to dip as both give heavy armor.
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