So i saw that daring champ gets challenge (level to damage), and at level 4 gets the precise strike swashbuckler deed (also level to damage, that you can double by spending panache).
did the editors miss that or was it intended to run around dealing +40-60 damage before mods (like the +10 challenge damage dwarf FCB, or +6 from order of the cockatrice, or feats, or you know, stats) at the high end?
even being stuck with one-handed weapons that seems pretty a ridiculous.
Design Manager
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The Daring Champion trades away his mount, one of the most potent force multipliers in the game. Considering he's limiting his weapon choice and passing up on a weapon and combat style that doubles, triples, and eventually quadruples his damage (and then sextuples it on a crit) it's a pretty fair trade, maybe even one where the Daring Champion is getting the short end of things.
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Precision damage does not multiply on a critical.
Not sure who said it did, but that just re-emphasizes what the cavalier is giving up when he takes Daring Champion. Regular cavalier can get upwards of 6x damage with a lance, multiplying his challenge bonuses, two-handed power attack bonuses, STR bonus, static bonuses from his Order, etc. Daring Champion gets precision damage that doesn't multiply on a crit and gives up the force multiplication that a mount and lance represent.
I would be pretty surprised to discover that the Daring Champion deals any more damage than a standard cavalier, and suspect that the opposite is actually true.
you raise a good point (i think). has anyone done any comparative maths of challenge+prcise strike vs challenge lance mounted skirmisher (with mount str added due to that class ability and such)?
though wouldnt both still be stuck with onehanded PA stuff, since the lance is onehanded while mounted?
The lance rules are really dumb; even though you wield it one hand and can use a shield in your other, it still counts as a two-handed weapon for power attack and other such purposes. This is different from every other mechanic in the game that allows you to wield a two-handed weapon one-handed.
It makes me a little angry, quite frankly. I wanted to play a mounted Swash...
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I guess you could say that the paizo staff were being a bit... cavalier...
I guess you could say that the paizo staff were being a bit... cavalier...
Yep, I like it. 10 points.
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the sad thing is that it is a better swash than the swash.
Makes me kinda want to play a Centaur Daring Champion especially if Centaur counts as mounted for feats.
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There's the Natural Jouster feat, which lets you perform lance charges. It doesn't stack up with Spirited Charge, unfortunately, since it doesn't actually make you mounted, it just lets you wield lances one handed and specifically lets you deal double damage with a lance when you charge.
Makes me kinda want to play a Centaur Daring Champion especially if Centaur counts as mounted for feats.It doesn't, but it should.
Why is that by the way? Because if you are a Centaur and take mounted combat you are investing quite a bit more then the average guy on horse back. A level of no class and a feat rather then just.. well nothing.
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Why is that by the way? Because if you are a Centaur and take mounted combat you are investing quite a bit more then the average guy on horse back. A level of no class and a feat rather then just.. well nothing.Makes me kinda want to play a Centaur Daring Champion especially if Centaur counts as mounted for feats.It doesn't, but it should.
I think it was just kind of overlooked since centaurs didn't include player rules when they were released. Even the block in the ARG is more of an example than actual stats. I think most home groups end up implementing some kind of house rule or mechanic to allow centaurs to count as mounted if they end up allowing them as player races though (and I usually add it to NPC centaurs as well).
So a Centaur or Lapith if allowed could take Animal Soul, then Mounted Combat and actually benefit from it? it says Spells and Effects, feats have effects
I think it was just kind of overlooked since centaurs didn't include player rules when they were released. Even the block in the ARG is more of an example than actual stats. I think most home groups end up implementing some kind of house rule or mechanic to allow centaurs to count as mounted if they end up allowing them as player races though (and I usually add it to NPC centaurs as well).Why is that by the way? Because if you are a Centaur and take mounted combat you are investing quite a bit more then the average guy on horse back. A level of no class and a feat rather then just.. well nothing.Makes me kinda want to play a Centaur Daring Champion especially if Centaur counts as mounted for feats.It doesn't, but it should.
That is kind of the way I play it, I always counted Centaur NPCs and Bad guys as having Mounted Combat and the like. I mean heck look at the example of the Centaur in ARG its a freaken Centaur in full plate with a lance and shield charging.
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And a lance charge for a cavalier is not possible in 90% of combat scenarios, whereas the inverse is true for challenges and panache use.
==Aelryinth
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Design Manager
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And a lance charge for a cavalier is not possible in 90% of combat scenarios, whereas the inverse is true for challenges and panache use.
==Aelryinth
That's nonsense. It only takes 10 feet to charge and as levels progress you get more and more ways to ensure you're making charges, including Ride-by Attack, Wheeling Charge, Horseshoes of a Zephyr, etc.
I can think of exactly one adventure where I wasn't able to charge reliably and it involved a literal tower of stairwells during a 5th level dungeon crawl.
In every AP I've ever played a cavalier in I was able to charge far more reliably than any other party member was able to full attack.
You ride around on your horse inside a dungeon? Social situation? Sewer crawl? Random planar excursion?
You have a more permissive DM or play different modules then I do.
==Aelryinth
honestly i'd take my horse with me everywhere--narrow frame does wonders, and we've got a poor man's pre-nerf crane wing via inharms way (on horse) and mounted combat (on me).
heck, with the new undersized mount feat the problems evaporate entirely. just ride a wolf.
also wait, could one use a mounted lance with swash stuff (it's a one-handed piercing weapon at that point...)?
daring champ cavalier with lance riding a tiger (via nature soul+animal ally+boon companion) getting challenge+precise strike+lance shenanigans on a pouncing mount seems kinda scary.
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You ride around on your horse inside a dungeon? Social situation? Sewer crawl? Random planar excursion?
You have a more permissive DM or play different modules then I do.
==Aelryinth
Consider Narrow Frame next time. It makes traversing areas like that with your mount effortless.
Prerequisites: Escape Artist 1 rank, animal or magical beast.
Benefit: You do not take penalties on your attack rolls or to your AC for squeezing through a narrow space that is at least half as wide as your normal space, though each move into or through a narrow space still counts as if it were 2 squares.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC while squeezing.
You ride around on your horse inside a dungeon? Social situation? Sewer crawl? Random planar excursion?
You have a more permissive DM or play different modules then I do.
==Aelryinth
This is why people play small-race cavaliers. And screw anyone who doesn't want my "filthy animal" in their house/castle/shop. Yes, even the King.
While the daring champion is good, I don't think it necessarily beats the swashbuckler in every possible way. While getting challenge is good, losing the mount hurts for the cavalier. Furthermore, the daring champion gets precise strike one level after the swashbuckler, meaning that he's handedly behind the swashbuckler in damage for a full level. The cavalier also doesn't get most of the cavalier's fun, out of combat abilities such as derring-do. (This deed is frankly one of the best that the swashbuckler gets.)
At the time the cavalier gains precise strike, the swashbuckler gains her first bonus feat, which can select as if she had fighter levels. The fighter level aspect is a small bonus, but a beneficial one. Over the course of her career, the swashbuckler gets two extra bonus feats over the cavalier, and that's not including the absolute best benefit of the swashbuckler class: swashbuckler weapon training. Not only does the swashbuckler get a scaling bonus on to-hit and to-damage rolls that she never has to spend an action using, but on top of that she gains the benefit of Improved Critical with every light and one-handed piercing weapon in the game, for free, at Level 5. For reference, Improved Critical is normally a Level 8 feat (meaning she gets it three levels earlier) and normally requires the selection of one, specific weapon.
"Oh, but Alex!" the naysayers cry, "I can just take Improved Critical myself at 8th level!" Sure you can, but when I disarm you or sunder you or otherwise separate you from your weapon, then what are you going to do? The swashbuckler can pick up a spork and use Improved Critical to scoop out your eyeballs.
Is the daring champion good because it gets both challenge and precise strike? Yes, definitely. Does it completely invalidate the swashbuckler? No, the swashbuckler has several potent class features that the cavalier does not receive. It is still a very functional class.
There's the Natural Jouster feat, which lets you perform lance charges. It doesn't stack up with Spirited Charge, unfortunately, since it doesn't actually make you mounted, it just lets you wield lances one handed and specifically lets you deal double damage with a lance when you charge.
Kinda makes me want to get that feat onto a humanoid, the only way I can think of is way back in 3.5 with Eberron Changelings and the Racial emulation trick.
A Changeling Daring Champion Cavalier would be pretty fun....
More so with a lance.
But I bring nothing to this conversation as of yet so feel free to ignore.
While the daring champion is good, I don't think it necessarily beats the swashbuckler in every possible way. While getting challenge is good, losing the mount hurts for the cavalier. Furthermore, the daring champion gets precise strike one level after the swashbuckler, meaning that he's handedly behind the swashbuckler in damage for a full level. The cavalier also doesn't get most of the cavalier's fun, out of combat abilities such as derring-do. (This deed is frankly one of the best that the swashbuckler gets.)
At the time the cavalier gains precise strike, the swashbuckler gains her first bonus feat, which can select as if she had fighter levels. The fighter level aspect is a small bonus, but a beneficial one. Over the course of her career, the swashbuckler gets two extra bonus feats over the cavalier, and that's not including the absolute best benefit of the swashbuckler class: swashbuckler weapon training. Not only does the swashbuckler get a scaling bonus on to-hit and to-damage rolls that she never has to spend an action using, but on top of that she gains the benefit of Improved Critical with every light and one-handed piercing weapon in the game, for free, at Level 5. For reference, Improved Critical is normally a Level 8 feat (meaning she gets it three levels earlier) and normally requires the selection of one, specific weapon.
"Oh, but Alex!" the naysayers cry, "I can just take Improved Critical myself at 8th level!" Sure you can, but when I disarm you or sunder you or otherwise separate you from your weapon, then what are you going to do? The swashbuckler can pick up a spork and use Improved Critical to scoop out your eyeballs.
Is the daring champion good because it gets both challenge and precise strike? Yes, definitely. Does it completely invalidate the swashbuckler? No, the swashbuckler has several potent class features that the cavalier does not receive. It is still a very functional class.
unfortunately swash has that unfortunate growth on its backside to contend with.
you know, the swift/immediate action bottleneck.
also, a cav spending a swift action for a huge bonus on damage (and usually to-hit depending on order) from challenge is hardly an action at all for a martial character who doesn't have a premium on them. you can drop your challenge and then wade in for murder. it's more the use/day limit on challenge that makes it slightly worse, but at higher levels in the usual combat day you're likely to not even run out of those.
also, i'm unsure of just how many useful light/one-handed piercing weapons there are in the game--even with slashing (and eventually fencing) grace to open the options up more, it doesn't seem all that much. actually does that even work with improvised weapons (your spork example)?
that and light weapons seem to be completely unsupported on the dex-to-damage front, making them less than appetizing.
.
this isnt meant as some sort of "you're wrong ant this is why" post, just noting that there's some issues with your statement.
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You ride around on your horse inside a dungeon? Social situation? Sewer crawl? Random planar excursion?
You have a more permissive DM or play different modules then I do.
==Aelryinth
Yes, maybe, yes, and yes. I don't need a permissive GM, I have a properly trained class feature and I make sure to use it. As campaigns become less predictable and impassable climbs more common, I make sure to get a hosteling shield or armor instead of leaving my loyal and powerful companion in a stable across town. You never hear people saying the druid's pet is useless, but you put a saddle on the thing and suddenly everyone acts like it's a sofa.
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You ride around on your horse inside a dungeon? Social situation? Sewer crawl? Random planar excursion?You have a more permissive DM or play different modules then I do.
==Aelryinth
Why on earth would you play a cavalier if your GM was the kind of guy to say "Whoa!? A Horse in a Sewer?!?! That's preposterous. Now tentacle monsters, that makes sense."
Deadly Agility is a Dreamscarred Press feat from PoW which adds Dex to damage for any weapon you can Weapon Finesse which is required.
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lance with swash stuff (it's a one-handed piercing weapon at that point...)?
It's actually not a one-handed piercing weapon. The lance is weird in that unlike a bastard sword, it is always considered a two-handed weapon.
It's actually not a one-handed piercing weapon. The lance is weird in that unlike a bastard sword, it is always considered a two-handed weapon.lance with swash stuff (it's a one-handed piercing weapon at that point...)?
Except with the Natural Jouster Feat which treats it as a one handed all the time
From what I can see a Lapith Swashbuckler//Cavalier as pretty dang awesome. Shift form with Animal Soul feat to use Mounted abilities on yourself and shift back to make use of none mounted stuff.
Except with the Natural Jouster Feat which treats it as a one handed all the timeIt's actually not a one-handed piercing weapon. The lance is weird in that unlike a bastard sword, it is always considered a two-handed weapon.lance with swash stuff (it's a one-handed piercing weapon at that point...)?
Nope. It says you can wield it one-handed, but not that it's a one-handed weapon. It's an inane distinction, I know, but it's been spelled out by Paizo.
Nope. It says you can wield it one-handed, but not that it's a one-handed weapon. It's an inane distinction, I know, but it's been spelled out by Paizo.Except with the Natural Jouster Feat which treats it as a one handed all the timeIt's actually not a one-handed piercing weapon. The lance is weird in that unlike a bastard sword, it is always considered a two-handed weapon.lance with swash stuff (it's a one-handed piercing weapon at that point...)?
Can you link to wear this distinction is spelled out?
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Archive of Nethys Natural Jouster
"Can wield a lance one handed, as if mounted"
I have to wait until tomorrow to look up the threads where it describes a lance as a two-handed weapon being wielded in one hand. Maybe someone else can do it tonight?
Why on earth would you play a cavalier if your GM was the kind of guy to say "Whoa!? A Horse in a Sewer?!?! That's preposterous. Now tentacle monsters, that makes sense."
You ride around on your horse inside a dungeon? Social situation? Sewer crawl? Random planar excursion?You have a more permissive DM or play different modules then I do.
==Aelryinth
"
Yeah, my horses can totally climb down that sewer entrance hole. I can also ride them easily in a six foot high tunnel. And all the tavern owners and nobles let me bring my horse into their abodes for meetings, and those rooftop chases? My horse NAILS those. Swimming down to an underwater entrance? My horse can do that! Tight trees and broken terrain? I don't need to walk my horse, man, I can charge right through a two foot oak and over any craggy ground. At level 1! Trotting around inside a castle is SO not a problem when I'm mounted on a horse. And I certainly ain't going to leave my horse behind when I'm attempting a stealthy infiltration or being in disguise, cavaliar mounts blend in everywhere!"My GM doesn't have a problem with riding a horse. He has a problem with the horse not being limited because it's a horse.
And no, he doesn't allow bears or tigers on the ballroom floor, and the monkeys and dogs generally stay outside, too. especially if they are size L.
And I'm well aware of the size S cavaliar on a riding dog, it's been around since 3e, and it's very niche and still subject to many of the restrictions of above.
==Aelryinth
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This is why I always put points into bluff as a cavalier, most noble folk are pretty understanding if you explain that it's a seeing eye horse.
Yeah if only all other class abilities worked that way. It's not like it's a major function of the class at all.
This is why I always put points into bluff as a cavalier, most noble folk are pretty understanding if you explain that it's a seeing eye horse.
Goes well with a red-tipped white swordcane.
I honestly think that Daring Champion should not have the Weapon Finesse equivalent feat. It gets Medium Armor, that deemphasizes DEX as a main stat. I think it would be much more balanced if it was STR to attack reliant.
Playing so far has shown it to be pretty good but not overpowered. The barbarian in the party still easily out damages me, but my defenses are more solid.
I do have to say the road to getting precise strike at 4th is pretty painful. Even with slashing grace it hurt. Once you get there it makes a world of difference between parry/riposte and the damage boost. The 2nd use of challenge helps immensely as well.
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Yeah, my horses can totally climb down that sewer entrance hole. I can also ride them easily in a six foot high tunnel. And all the tavern owners and nobles let me bring my horse into their abodes for meetings, and those rooftop chases? My horse NAILS those. Swimming down to an underwater entrance? My horse can do that! Tight trees and broken terrain? I don't need to walk my horse, man, I can charge right through a two foot oak and over any craggy ground. At level 1! Trotting around inside a castle is SO not a problem when I'm mounted on a horse. And I certainly ain't going to leave my horse behind when I'm attempting a stealthy infiltration or being in disguise, cavaliar mounts blend in everywhere!"
My GM doesn't have a problem with riding a horse. He has a problem with the horse not being limited because it's a horse.
And no, he doesn't allow bears or tigers on the ballroom floor, and the monkeys and dogs generally stay outside, too. especially if they are size L.
And I'm well aware of the size S cavaliar on a riding dog, it's been around since 3e, and it's very niche and still subject to many of the restrictions of above.
==Aelryinth
I think most of the "restrictions of above" are actually very niche as well. Setting aside the fact that many of them can easily be circumvented by magic items, feats, and , the truth is that climactic boss battles rarely take place in such situations. Fights at the end of a module or section of an AP tend to be set in large, open spaces. These fights are both where a daring champion will spend their challenges and panache, and where a cavalier will spend their challenge and get to charge.
When the vanilla (Spirited Charge, lance-wielding) cavalier can charge, it's much better than the daring champion with no abilities activated. When the daring champion uses a challenge and/or spends panache, though, it's only as good as, or worse than, the charging, challenging cavalier.
I wonder how good a strength based daring champion would be.
You don't get any benefit from champion's finesse but every thing else should work all right. You can use power attack and everything the dex based guy can. What you will have less is AC.
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When the vanilla (Spirited Charge, lance-wielding) cavalier can charge, it's much better than the daring champion with no abilities activated. When the daring champion uses a challenge and/or spends panache, though, it's only as good as, or worse than, the charging, challenging cavalier.
Pretty much the only time a Daring Champion is going to be able to outdamage a charging cavalier is if said charging cavalier is using a weapon other than a lance (and not taking advantage of one of the archetypes that gives other non-lance weapons the mounted boost) and not using Spirited Charge.
Sidenote:
1) "Trotting around inside a castle is SO not a problem when I'm mounted on a horse." I agree, it's generally not. Most castles have nice big arches to accomodate things like guards with 12' ceremonial halberds.
2) "I don't need to walk my horse, man, I can charge right through a two foot oak and over any craggy ground." Seems legit, especially considering that the Cavalier's horse is an exemplar of his kind.
3) "Swimming down to an underwater entrance? My horse can do that!" It can train Swim and it's smarter than the average beast. There's also a trick specifically for getting it to follow you places it wouldn't normally go, so if you've got that... Seems legit.
4) "And all the tavern owners and nobles let me bring my horse into their abodes for meetings, and those rooftop chases? My horse NAILS those." Seems (3:07) legit. Especially since a Cavalier's horse would have had an inherent bond with its master and been trained not to balk, unlike Schwarzenegger's borrowed steed.
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Yeah, my horses can totally climb down that sewer entrance hole. I can also ride them easily in a six foot high tunnel. And all the tavern owners and nobles let me bring my horse into their abodes for meetings, and those rooftop chases? My horse NAILS those. Swimming down to an underwater entrance? My horse can do that! Tight trees and broken terrain? I don't need to walk my horse, man, I can charge right through a two foot oak and over any craggy ground. At level 1! Trotting around inside a castle is SO not a problem when I'm mounted on a horse. And I certainly ain't going to leave my horse behind when I'm attempting a stealthy infiltration or being in disguise, cavaliar mounts blend in everywhere!"
My GM doesn't have a problem with riding a horse. He has a problem with the horse not being limited because it's a horse.And no, he doesn't allow bears or tigers on the ballroom floor, and the monkeys and dogs generally stay outside, too. especially if they are size L.
And I'm well aware of the size S cavaliar on a riding dog, it's been around since 3e, and it's very niche and still subject to many of the restrictions of above.
==Aelryinth
Like Ssalarn said, I don't think any of that is that ridiculous, especially in a game where you can be a giant crow. But more importantly, my point wasn't that horses should be allowed to do anything they want to, but rather, that if your GM rules horses can't run in a forest because of trees, as yours does, then why would you play a cavalier? Without your horse, you're somewhere between a version of a fighter with no weapon training or armor training and a bard with a limited version of inspire courage. A vanilla cavalier without a horse is about as bad as it gets, so if you know your GM's going to be stripping you of that class feature, why not play any other class?
Sorry to take this thread off topic.