Wondrous item creation and caster level


Rules Questions


I have seen several postings under the rules section of the forums addressing item creation and caster level however none of them answer my questions at least not completely and many of the answers seem rather vague and game breaking so i'm guessing that a developer did not actually answer them. So i will explain why the postings don't answer my questions as part of each question.

1. Wondrous items which effect ability scores have the same effect as giving a weapon a +1 bonus if applied to the appropriate ability score (only with more benefits such as skill roll increases) that being an increase to hit and damage or in the abstract of increasing a spells DC or the number of spells which can be cast per day, for the class of the character who ends up wielding it. This has the effect of bypassing what i'm guessing is a limit on the amount of damage which a weapon can do below a certain level so as not to unbalance the combat system. Since this is the case does a wondrous item which affects an ability score also increase the caster level required to create it by 3 for each +2 of the ability score it effects?

2. The spells that are used to create wondrous items often times do not allow the amount of bonus's which the completed wondrous items end up having (such as a +6 belt of giants strength). Is this because it is assumed the wondrous item is crafted with an empowered version of the spell?

3. If the answer to question number 2 is yes does that mean that any caster who does not have the empower feat should increase the DC of the spell craft check on creation by 5 and should they burn the appropriate level spell slot for the empowered version of that spell for the days of creation instead of the spells normal level?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1) No.

2) No.

3) Not applicable.

Magic items do not have to duplicate the effects of the spells used to create them.

To elaborate a bit more: the limiting factor on magic items is cost. The caster level is used to determine how hard it is to dispel effects, and determine the DC to craft the item. Weapons and some other items have an extra craft requirement which includes caster level, but that can be overcome with a simple +5 to the craft DC, and any item crafter is going to boost Spellcraft to the levels where it becomes trivial to craft what they want.

Thus, the limit on obtaining items "before time" is character wealth. It doesn't matter how high your Spellcraft skill bonus is, if you don't have the gold to craft a +6 belt, it's not going to get crafted.

So while you are correct that items are expected to be limited to prevent bonuses (damage, ability scores, whatever) from getting too high too soon, the metric is not character level, directly. It is character wealth. Character wealth is, itself, expected to grow at a rate based upon character level, but because wealth is easier to fine-tune than level, it is something a GM has more control over, to help prevent abuses.


Chemlak while I appreciate the commentary and don't mean to sound snooty about it but the only way the players in one of my campaigns will accept an answer from forums is through a developer. The question was directed at the developers as this is what these forums are for according to the FAQ and saying that it is only limited by gold is also not a valid reasoning. The gold pieces awarded through simple math using even the slow progression for CR's of an equivalent encounter to a player party dictate a person could craft a +6 wondrous item by level 5 without even really trying to save gold if they are a spell caster and with the appropriate skill rank choices and 1 feat can easily make that spell craft roll. If that is the game developers reasoning for it I will gladly accept it i just think it is broken if that is the case and they should think about redoing the rules governing magic item creation.

Also it says this in the core book: Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

I don't understand how if this effects the level of a spell it would not effect the level of a magic item or at least the creation DC of that magic item. Also all spells required for wondrous items i have looked at directly tie to the wondrous item in some way shape or form so saying they don't duplicate the effects of spells is just untrue, they do duplicate the effects of the spells that are there requirements almost exactly with only a slight deviation in some cases.


The devs rarely answer questions, especially when its already been answered and is quite clear in the rules. This happens to be one of those situations where you have both factors, so I put it at less than 5% you get a Dev answer. They have enough to deal with.

1) No. The CL only increases when you add more than one attribute (like the belt of physical might moves from CL 8 to CL 12).

2) No. This is not mentioned anywhere in any item creation rules. Empowered doesn't even increase static bonuses so it wouldn't work even if that was the case. Still, there is not a single thing in there, don't make assumptions.

3) Not Applicable.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

IMHO, this would totally be a non-issue if it weren't for the possibility to circumvent caster-level restrictions of any amount simply by adding +5 to your crafting check.

What if some restrictions were "hard" limits, like the 3 caster levels per +1 enchantment?

What if you have to add +5 to the crafting check for each level short of the target caster level you were?

What if, indeed? But those would be "houserules", not RAW. This being the rules forum, Chemlak has the one and only right answer, and if you go trolling through old threads, you'll doubtless find the links to relevant FAQs and such.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I had a "Summon Jason Bulmahn" power, I'd use it. The material component for the spell is a bottle of Scotch, and I'm keeping mine firmly in the drinks cabinet. Heck, if he wants to drop in here and say "Chemlak is right", I'll take that, too.

I don't consider it "snooty" to want designer clarification on things, but it is rather arrogant of your players to expect or require it. Jason and the rest of the design team have WAY more important things to do than come in here and validate our disputes (Pathfinder Unchained, mush, mush!).

The thing is, there is a strong record of the design team saying (to paraphrase) that if everyone here says something, it's usually right. And in this case, we're not even talking about an ambiguity in wording: there is literally nothing in the rules to support a "yes" answer to 1 & 2 (which makes 3 a non-starter).

On the other hand, if you can find a rules citation to support that answer, we'll examine it, pick it apart, and hopefully all learn something.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Crafting items is supposed to be easy. The roll is supposed to be trivial if you've invested any ranks at all in Spellcraft. The caster level of an item only affects its dispel DCs and saving throws, and sets the base crafting DC. Unless listed under prerequisites the caster level is not a prereq for creating an item. Yes characters above WBL or who save all their cash to create one giant item can get big things at low levels. This is all working as intended.

A lot of people house rule item creation because they don't like one or more aspects of it. If that makes your group happy then do it.

I'm also unsure where you get the idea of an implied damage cap. It's trivial to make a first level character who does 2d6+13 per hit with their weapon, and only expands from there. Trust me that a martial character pumping their Str score doesn't hold a candle to the havoc wrought by a good caster pumping their casting stat.


Adacanavar wrote:
. . . but the only way the players in one of my campaigns will accept an answer from forums is through a developer. . . .

I would expect a well reasoned argument siting the rule book to have some weight.

That's the non starter for me. If I am running a game, and the players and I have discussed an issue, and I make a ruling, and somebody still gives me grief, it's time for somebody else to run for a while.

We are (supposedly) adults.

Adacanavar wrote:
. . . The question was directed at the developers as this is what these forums are for. . . .
Community Guidelines wrote:
The paizo.com messageboards are a friendly and fun place where the community and Paizo staff can interact.

"Can". Not necessarily "will" in every case.

It is similar to the difference between "Can I go to the bathroom?" and "May I go to the bathroom?".

Shadow Lodge

1: You are the DM, if the players don't like your verdict and give you a hard time, load Finger of death on the next enemy cleric.

2: The best limiter on Item creation is this:

TIME

Step one:
If its not a standard Item it must be crafted, and cannot be purchased. If your players cannot afford market price, then they must craft it.

Step two:
Institute rarity, Certain Items may be much rarer than others, this allows you to increase Market price (which while not effecting creation costs may force your characters to craft instead).

Step Three:
Spell Access: Be on top of which spells your characters have access to and allow scrolls of spells to be available only on a percentage chance instead of all the time. Characters usually want items for effects they like but don't want to waste spell memorization on. When a wizard has to choose between learning fireball on level up and learning Bulls Strength, which does he choose. knowing there is only a chance the spell may be available in scroll form may force him away from the spell necessary for item crafting.

Step 4:
Make sure that your campaign transpires over a limited frame of time with real consequences for not meeting campaign goals within that time frame. This prevents players from abusing downtime to craft overpowered items, and in reference to step three, Limited down time also means limited time to perform spell research.

All of these things are legitimate campaign world related ways to impose control power creep in your game. And all are available over and above what you'll find in the rule-book strictly regarding item creation.

[Edit] Formatting


I'll chime in here and agree with the others with regards to the original questions.

However, there is a second limitation on crafting (not just the gold): time.

There is rarely enough time for an item crafter to make powerful items particularly if the GM adjusts things to prevent abuse. A crafter who also has a valet familiar or a cooperative cohort can craft a lot faster but they are otherwise weaker than an equivalent character who has specialised in combat.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I think Chemlak pretty much nailed the answers on this one.


Adacanavar wrote:


1. Wondrous items which effect ability scores have the same effect as giving a weapon a +1 bonus if applied to the appropriate ability score (only with more benefits such as skill roll increases) that being an increase to hit and damage or in the abstract of increasing a spells DC or the number of spells which can be cast per day, for the class of the character who ends up wielding it. This has the effect of bypassing what i'm guessing is a limit on the amount of damage which a weapon can do below a certain level so as not to unbalance the combat system. Since this is the case does a wondrous item which affects an ability score also increase the caster level required to create it by 3 for each +2 of the ability score it effects?

If I remember correctly, the creator's caster level must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. So if you want to make a +2 belt of giant strength you must be at least CL 6 to craft it.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Brox RedGloves wrote:
If I remember correctly, the creator's caster level must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. So if you want to make a +2 belt of giant strength you must be at least CL 6 to craft it.

Thing is, per RAW, you can dump that requirement simply by adding +5 to your crafting DC. Which IMHO is far, far too generous, but hey, it's RAW, as folks here have pointed out on numerous occasions.

I'm not 100% certain, but that requirement *may* only be valid for weapons and armor as well.

+5 on the crafting DC for each level shy of the target casting level might work. I was thinking of making the caster level a hard limit... but was swayed by certain arguments on these boards.

Helps to talk things through.


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Quote:
If I remember correctly, the creator's caster level must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. So if you want to make a +2 belt of giant strength you must be at least CL 6 to craft it.

That only applies to armor, shields, and weapons. With a few exceptions, like Amulets of Natural Armor.

Bracers of Armor only require 2x the bonus. And there is no level requirement for the stat-increasing items.


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Wheldrake wrote:
Brox RedGloves wrote:
If I remember correctly, the creator's caster level must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. So if you want to make a +2 belt of giant strength you must be at least CL 6 to craft it.

Thing is, per RAW, you can dump that requirement simply by adding +5 to your crafting DC. Which IMHO is far, far too generous, but hey, it's RAW, as folks here have pointed out on numerous occasions.

I'm not 100% certain, but that requirement *may* only be valid for weapons and armor as well.

+5 on the crafting DC for each level shy of the target casting level might work. I was thinking of making the caster level a hard limit... but was swayed by certain arguments on these boards.

Helps to talk things through.

to what end? The game is balanced around the idea that people have access to the items that they want, they need, and that they can afford. Why is that a problem?


Chemlak wrote:

1) No.

2) No.

3) Not applicable.

Magic items do not have to duplicate the effects of the spells used to create them.

To elaborate a bit more: the limiting factor on magic items is cost. The caster level is used to determine how hard it is to dispel effects, and determine the DC to craft the item. Weapons and some other items have an extra craft requirement which includes caster level, but that can be overcome with a simple +5 to the craft DC, and any item crafter is going to boost Spellcraft to the levels where it becomes trivial to craft what they want.

Thus, the limit on obtaining items "before time" is character wealth. It doesn't matter how high your Spellcraft skill bonus is, if you don't have the gold to craft a +6 belt, it's not going to get crafted.

So while you are correct that items are expected to be limited to prevent bonuses (damage, ability scores, whatever) from getting too high too soon, the metric is not character level, directly. It is character wealth. Character wealth is, itself, expected to grow at a rate based upon character level, but because wealth is easier to fine-tune than level, it is something a GM has more control over, to help prevent abuses.

You are correct. So says AM DEVELOPER.

Sczarni

I admit to not reading all the posts beyond the OP's but wanted to point out something that is often misunderstood. The Caster Level listed on the top right of a magic item's description is only there to let you know the default CL of a purchased magic item. It has nothing to do with any crafting requirement. The only requirements for crafting a given magic item are those listed under the "Construction - Requirements" section at the bottom of the item's description.


And those requirements can be skipped by adding +5 to the DC(Outside of scrolls, potions, wands and a few corner case items). As you can take 10 most DC's are easy. Considering you need raw cash not that big of a deal. You are burning a feat on crafting, so you should be able to do it. My witch can pretty easily craft headbands at level 3 even without the appropriate spell.

Remember for the time element you can always use the crafting while adventuring rules to do 250 GP's/day, or 500/day by increasing the DC by 5.


Ok i need to put this in the form of another question after reading all of this and i will quote the FAQ in here as well which brought the question to light in my mind and made me post the original two questions.

1. As to the first question I asked what i am understanding from this thread is that the item you are trying to create itself unless its an enhancement bonus to a weapon of +1 to +5 has no actual caster level at all so a level 3 wizard with some insane spell craft check could make a belt of giants strength +6 if they had the gold piece value and the craft wondrous items feat, is that correct?

2. As to my second question originally why does the RAW bring up meta magic feats at all if it in some way does not effect the item you are trying to craft?

tying into number two and one here is the RAW on magic item creation from the core book page 549 concerning caster level and meta magic if they don't matter at all if there is no minimum caster level why does it even say this?

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note
that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of
the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the
item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can
place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

3. I understand that you can remove the caster level requirements with a +5 to the DC of the spell craft check which was not one of my original questions because i took it for granted that doing so would add +5 for each level removed from the caster level required. Where are we getting that the +5 is not cumulative when it comes to level? as the FAQ simply states the following

"Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.


Quote:
1. As to the first question I asked what i am understanding from this thread is that the item you are trying to create itself unless its an enhancement bonus to a weapon of +1 to +5 has no actual caster level at all so a level 3 wizard with some insane spell craft check could make a belt of giants strength +6 if they had the gold piece value and the craft wondrous items feat, is that correct?

Creating a +6 belt is actual no more difficult than creating a +2 belt. And yes, a 3rd level wizard can make both.

Quote:
2. As to my second question originally why does the RAW bring up meta magic feats at all if it in some way does not effect the item you are trying to craft?

You can make items that cast spells with metamagic feats. But thats only used for items that actually duplicate spells, like wands, staves, and potions.

Most other magic item (including wondrous items) don't duplicate spells. The spells those items require are only there for fluff. They have no mechanical effect on the item at all. Othewise flaming swords would be touch attacks (if flame blade was used as the prerequisite) or explode in a massive fireball (if fireball was used) or call down a column of fire (if flame strike was used).

Quote:

3. I understand that you can remove the caster level requirements with a +5 to the DC of the spell craft check which was not one of my original questions because i took it for granted that doing so would add +5 for each level removed from the caster level required. Where are we getting that the +5 is not cumulative when it comes to level? as the FAQ simply states the following

"Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have...

Its only a single +5 increase because its only a single prerequisite.


Adacanavar wrote:


1. As to the first question I asked what i am understanding from this thread is that the item you are trying to create itself unless its an enhancement bonus to a weapon of +1 to +5 has no actual caster level at all so a level 3 wizard with some insane spell craft check could make a belt of giants strength +6 if they had the gold piece value and the craft wondrous items feat, is that correct?

Not quite. It has a caster level, but the caster level isn't a requirement for making the item. The main use of the caster level is if someone tries to use a dispel magic spell on a person wearing it -- if a belt of giant strength has a caster level of 8, your target DC for turning it off is a DC 19 (11+8). A belt of physical perfection has a CL of 17, so it's harder to dispel.

The caster level also affects the spell itself, for example, how much damage a wand of fireballs does.

The caster level also affects the target DC of the Spellcraft (or other skill) to make the item. You need to be able to make a Spellcraft DC check of 13 (5 + 8) to make the belt of giant strength, which of course even a first level wizard could do by taking 10.

Quote:


2. As to my second question originally why does the RAW bring up meta magic feats at all if it in some way does not effect the item you are trying to craft?

Well, some metamagic feats are creation requirements. For others,...

Quote:


While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note
that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of
the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the
item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can
place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

I can make a wand of fireball, or a wand of acid ball, using elemental spell metamagic.

Quote:


3. I understand that you can remove the caster level requirements with a +5 to the DC of the spell craft check which was not one of my original questions because i took it for granted that doing so would add +5 for each level removed from the caster level required. Where are we getting that the +5 is not cumulative when it comes to level?

Well, the caster either is or is not three times the enhancement bonus in level. If he isn't, it's a straight up +5.


1. Yes, but gold and time will likely prohibit that.

2. It is probably referring to heighten spell, but leaving open other possibilities, so if I wanted to craft a scroll of stinking cloud which was a level 9 spell, I could use heighten to do so.

3. The +5 is cumulative per level because the plain language of the rules is simply that a requirement can be bypassed by adding 5 to the spellcraft DC. The requirement is a CL, not each individual level in between your level and the caster lever, therefore +5 DC and you may bypass the requirement. Your version might be a nice house rule, but that's all it would be.

There is no ambiguity on these issues and it does not really require an FAQ.


Chemlak wrote:


1) No.
2) No.
3) Not applicable.

The rules are very clear and Chemlak is 100% correct.

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