Starting a new thread on this part of the interim FAQ, per Mike's request.
The wording in the FAQ candidate is "Summoned cards always go back in the box and never go anywhere else". How should this interact with Basic banes post Adventure Deck 3 and Elite banes post Adventure Deck 5? I would assume that you banish them and then still remove them from the box, but what do others think?
The rules do state that after evading or resolving the encounter with a summoned card, Banish it unless otherwise stated. So because the word Banish is used and not just "return it to the box" then any effects that rely on Banish, such as the rules for basic/elite card removal, would kick in.
Sometimes you will be told to summon cards or to add cards
to a deck. When this happens, retrieve the cards from the box.
However, if you’re told to summon a card that’s already in play, just
imagine you have another copy of that card for the new encounter;
this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.
Summoned cards cannot cause other cards to be summoned.
If you’re told to summon and encounter a card, this immediately
starts a new encounter. If you’re already in an encounter, complete
the encounter with the summoned card before continuing the original
encounter.
So the FAQ should probably say, "Summoned cards get banished and never anything else."
Additionally, I would like the see the phrase, "unless you're instructed otherwise" completely removed from that section of the rule book. It has caused me no small amount of grief in the past.
The issue is that there are some effects in S&S that do say otherwise. A few have been discussed here on the forum, though I'm afraid I don't have the links handy.
I do agree that the terminology can use a bit of work, though, because sometimes something says otherwise but doesn't actually count, so it gets confusing as to what counts and what doesn't.
There's also the "When Closing" condition on the Shipwreck Graveyard: "Roll on the Plunder Table; then summon and acquire a random card of that type". Is the card banished after I acquire it, or do I get to keep it?
That one came up for me two nights ago.
That would seem to be covered by the "unless the card that caused you to summon it instructs you otherwise" proposal. You were told to attempt to acquire it, and acquiring it means adding it to your hand.
Thanks, I thought so, too.
Based on the wording, I do believe that that's correct.
They specifically removed the Banish effect from the rules in that instance and it is now simply put back into the box, so any effects that rely on the Banish keyword don't kick in, so that'd include the card removal once you reach certain milestones in the adventure path.
The rules now specifically say they are never (cannot be) put anywhere else other than back in the box, and that seems to include they cannot be removed from the game per the normal removal, as cannot overrides can or does.
So summoned cards are always put back into the box unless the card that summoned it specifically says otherwise. No more free removal from game for random basic summoned monsters whether you win or lose, it seems.
As far as I can tell, there is never any reason to remove a henchman, villain, or location from the game, and we don't often summon anything else.
As far as I can tell, there is never any reason to remove a henchman, villain, or location from the game, and we don't often summon anything else.Not often, but it does happen. I'm just making sure I read the intent correctly.
I asked the question because my girlfriend and I started Adventure Deck 5 the other night, and the Scribbler summoned a bunch of monsters to fight us. Many of those were Elites, and since they were fresh "remove from the box" bait at that point in the game, I pondered the wording.
I think if you defeat them you can still treat them as banished. I don't see the summoned card text overruling that. It is just that is you didn't defeat them, they still go back in the box.
I think if you defeat them you can still treat them as banished. I don't see the summoned card text overruling that. It is just that is you didn't defeat them, they still go back in the box.I dunno. That didn't seem to be what Mike was implying.
Unofficially, I'd say they're still banished, and even the Adventure Path card can't overrule the "never anywhere else" text.
I think if you defeat them you can still treat them as banished. I don't see the summoned card text overruling that. It is just that is you didn't defeat them, they still go back in the box.
The summoned card text WAS the only thing that previously said to banish summoned cards. It was the deciding rule on what to do with summoned cards once you had dealt with them.
It no longer says to Banish them but instead to simply return them to the box.
So I believe it kinda does overrule that, since it's a rewrite of that very rule.
Well, you still go through the normal steps when you encounter a summoned bane. Which includes "Resolve the encounter".
Resolve the Encounter. If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don’t succeed, it is undefeated— shuffle the card back into its location deck. If you succeed at a check to acquire a boon, put it in your hand; otherwise, banish it.
But the summoned card rule adds to that.
After evading a summoned card or resolving the encounter with it, never put it anywhere other than back in the box unless the card that caused you to summon it instructs you otherwise.
Note it still says to resolve the encounter. It doesn't say "instead of the way you normally resolves the encounter..." You resolve the encounter as normal, but when you do so you should never put it anywhere but back in the box.
When you defeat a summoned monster and banish it, you are already putting it back in the box. So you are still following the summoned card rule when you resolve the encounter as normal.
If the summoned monster was undefeated, you'd at first want to shuffle it into the location, but the summoned card rule tells you to never put it anywhere but back in the box.
That's my take anyway.
Let me put it another way:
Can anyone find a card that (a) is summoned by another card, and (b) is Basic or Elite?
Or are we just debating a hypothetical?
Justice Ironbriar & The Scribbler both do.
And Garrison sort of does. The character's whose turn it is could fail to defeat a monster, but the other chacters who had to summon it might defeat it.
Also, the closing requirement on the Fringes of the Eye location in S&S is to summon and defeat a random barrier. Of course I don't know for sure that it will be used again in AD3 or later.
Radillo Arcane Collector can summon and encounter any boon. One would think that the intent was to acquire a good card or banish a bad one, but it seems that the card is going back to the box after the encounter.
I'd say Radillo is the summoning card and the power demonstrates that if you meet the requirements for accruing the boon (usually the check to acquire) then the summoning card is instructing you otherwise. Radillo still banishes an unacquired boon, whether summoned or not.
I almost said it could be reworded as:
When you encounter a boon, you may bury a card to banish it and replace it with a random boon of the same type (□ or a spell) (□ or an ally) from the box.
But there is a set of conditions were her power (or how I see it at least) wouldn't be exactly the same as replacing the card.
Say Radillo is at a location that says "If you fail to acquire a boon, shuffle it back into the location." As worded now, I'd say Radillo still has to put her replacement boon back in the box if she fails to acquire it, because it is still a summoned card and the location isn't doing the summoning.
Not sure if such a location does/will exist. But it is the corner case for her power.
Now, here is a pickle for you. What if Kleptomaniac Ranzak and Arcane Collector Radillo are at the same location. Radillo uses her power and fails to acquire the summoned boon. Can Ranzak attempt to acquire it?
To answer that you have to decide if Ranzak gets to start a whole new with encounter the boon, or if you simply stay at the "attempt the check" (maybe attempt the next check) step of the same encounter for Ranzak to make his attempt.
Long life the intricacies of PACG!
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Ranzak just says to attempt a check to acquire it, so I would say it's the same encounter.
However, Ranzak acquired it, not Radillo. Does he get to keep it if he passes the check? Even though Radillo's power allows HER to acquire it, she failed to acquire it, there is no longer a power saying otherwise regarding putting it back. She failed to acquire it, so her power is done. Ranzak passed the check... but the only thing preventing it going to the box was Radillo acquiring it, which didn't happen.
I think I would argue that he can't even keep the card if he passes the check, but he did technically acquire it so anything that triggers on that (like a location saying to bury a card anytime you acquire a boon) would happen.
Justice Ironbriar & The Scribbler both do.
And Garrison sort of does. The character's whose turn it is could fail to defeat a monster, but the other chacters who had to summon it might defeat it.
Sure. I was looking for cards that summon specific cards, but cards that summon random cards certainly give us something to talk about.
Say Radillo is at a location that says "If you fail to acquire a boon, shuffle it back into the location." As worded now, I'd say Radillo still has to put her replacement boon back in the box if she fails to acquire it, because it is still a summoned card and the location isn't doing the summoning.
She already has this power:
□ If you fail a check to acquire a boon, you may evade it.
Since it is on the same card, it could even be used to keep a card if the summoning wasn't supposed to allow it.
More fun things that can happen with boons before the end of an encounter:
□ When another character at your location would banish or bury an ally, he may put it in your discard pile instead.
□ When another character at your location acquires a boon, he may give it to you.
□ When (□ you acquire or) another character acquires a boon, that character may banish it to draw 1 random non-Basic (□ and non-Elite) boon of that type from the box.
□ When a character at your location acquires a card that has the Magic trait, that character may immediately recharge it.
Can we have two Radillo's in a game?
□ When another character at your location (□ or at any location) fails to acquire a boon, you may banish a card to put the boon in your discard pile.