Does the Bloodrager kind of stink at spells?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I know the shtick is "barbarian with arcane self-buffs and bloodline abilities rather than rage powers."

Some bloodlines get this: Destined is one of the absolute best (totally opposite the situation for the sorcerer bloodline), and its spell list gets the shtick perfectly: shield, plur, protection from energy, freedom of movement.

Others, not so much:
fey: entangle, hideous laughter, haste, confusion.

And the general spell list also has plenty of save-based effects: color spray, blindness/deafness, daze monster, glitterdust, pyrotechnics, hold person, slow, bestow curse, contagion, phantasmal killer, slow (I did not repeat myself, slow is on the 3rd AND 4th level lists on page 22) and similar spells.

While the proper choice for optimal bloodragers is to pick spells with a range of personal or touch or that get their punch from a high caster level rather than save DC, or that have an effect that is essentially static, that seems to rob the class of a great deal of its potential flavor.

When Magic Dude hulks out, and all the mooks are on a rock shelf out of his reach, he shouldn't be reduced to spending an action to cast fly, then move so that he can charge on the next round, or make an Acrobatics or Climb check, then cut them in half; he should kame-hame-ha the little bastards with fireball. But his DC will absolutely suck.

Shouldn't the bloodrager's Bloodrage, being supernatural, also grant an equal morale bonus to Charisma as to Strength and Constitution? If combined with Steadfast Personality, it would truly drive home the "Not Your Average Barbarian" aspect of the Bloodrager. And as a temporary bonus, it won't change anything really major other than DCs and concentration checks.

Also, I really think that the spell level for greater bloodrage should increase to 3 at class level 15. Either that, or have his 2nd-level bloodline spells be early entry.

Scarab Sages

That was one of the ringing complaints during the playtest, particularly since the BR had the Magus's narrowly focused offensive spell set. Being a melee character, his casting stat is at best 2nd priority, and probably 3rd. I was hoping to see an archetype that did STR/CHA or CON/CHA on bloodrage, but alas...

Anyway, yeah, regardless of the spell list provided for the BR, they will be equivalent to a Ranger or Paladin's offensive casting capabilities, which is well below a 6th level class (like the bard, magus, inquisitor, et al) in capability.


archmagi1 wrote:
That was one of the ringing complaints during the playtest, particularly since the BR had the Magus's narrowly focused offensive spell set.

The magus list is less narrowly focused offensive than the BR list. At least at low levels the BR list is mostly just useless trash where the magus list has a lot of good versatility and emergency spells.

During part 1 of the playtest I played a BR. I ditched him for part 2 because now he lacked anything meaningful to do with his spells.
But at least there now is an archetype that can burn spell slots for healing. Not that's a useful alternative to BR spells.

Sovereign Court

rereading the bloodrager spell list...heh it's actually totally fine. Even if someone wants to focus on offensive spells. Most of their offensive spells have partial saves and even the actually very bad ones. Like ray of exhaustion, cast it twice on enemy to have him exhausted for the rest of the encounter, even if the enemy saves twice, he will be exhausted then bloodrage and kill him in melee range.

Stinking Cloud can battlefield control a bunch of minions, as they will have to make the save all the time, while you wait for them to whack them with your greatsword.

Slow is one of the rare save negate spells on their list. So frankly, when it comes to spellcasting, Bloodrager are fine.


Eltacolibre wrote:
Bloodrager are fine.

I really think I would be hard pressed if I tried to make it worse. There are no buffs and no utility spells at low levels.

If I ever want to play one I'll offer the GM to pay blood sanctuary in exchange to being allowed the magus list.

Dark Archive

You can make a bloodrager who uses offensive spells. It's not what you use to take on the boss, but that's what a high strength and full BAB is for. The Rage Casting feat can give a fireball up to +3 to its DC, which means you're probably fine for taking out the mooks that you shouldn't waste more than a round on anyway. A bloodrager definitely gets enough feats for it, and it's way more potent than Spell Focus.


Keep Watch, Swift Girding, Vanish Are spells from the magus list which the bloodrager should have in my opinion. At least one of the first is mandatory for a medium armor wearer spontaneous caster.
The only spells I could see me choosing form the 1st level BR list are expeditious retreat and feather fall.

Edit: In fact I can not think of a single paizo spell list that would be worse for how I see the BR. I would even prefer the adept list.


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I have two problems:

1, I remember during the playtest people complaining that the playtest Bloodrager had the Magus spell list and not his own. Now we have a spell list that is not backwards compatible with splatbook/third party spells in addition to receiving complaints.

2, After the ACG release I remember discussions on how the Bloodrager was too good and now I see a thread about wanting to buff his spells.


The class has a bizarrely large number of save based spells on a class that's never going to pump its casting stat... while having absolutely nothing to incentivize casting those spells in the first place.

Seriously sorta boggles my mind the class doesn't have some sort of "+X to save DCs while raging" feature.

As it stands you cherry pick buffs and try to precast them then just be a barbarian. Lame.


Malwing wrote:

I have two problems:

1, I remember during the playtest people complaining that the playtest Bloodrager had the Magus spell list and not his own.

only during the first part of the playtest. During the second part more pleaded to get the magus list back.


Umbranus wrote:
Malwing wrote:

I have two problems:

1, I remember during the playtest people complaining that the playtest Bloodrager had the Magus spell list and not his own.

only during the first part of the playtest. During the second part more pleaded to get the magus list back.

Probably. I was a persistent proponent for not making new spell lists because of problems like this but I started abandoning some threads by the second playtest because I felt that the opinion was drowned out by the call for unique spell lists.


Well, unique spell lists let you tailor things for a lot of classes and let you give people early access or things from other lists they wouldn't normally get. Paizo also does a decent job not abandoning any class when it prints new spells.

The Bloodrager list just is asynergistic.


I rather like the BR spell list. Sure, it lacks many of the buff/utility spells people are so fond of, but it adds umph to possible melee attacks: shocking grasp, chill touch, enlarge person. Also nice benefits in mage armor and protection from evil, etc. Feather fall can be useful and is a utility spell. For a limited spell caster who can already hit hard, that isn't bad. The bloodline and raging should be the main focus of your character, not the spell list.

Dark Archive

Rather than give it up as a lost cause, perhaps we could find some things a bloodrager can do well? Try this: get blindness off on the baddie of your choice.

Tools Used:
- Undead bloodline
- Metamagic rager archetype
- Quicken Spell
- Human favored class bonus
- blindness/deafness
- Arcane Strike
- Blooded Arcane Strike
- Riving Strike

Obviously not all of these are required, but they all help. It goes down like this:

Bloodrager charges his foe. When the bloodrager hits, his opponent becomes shaken and his Riving Strike gives his opponent a -2 penalty to saving throws against spells. That stacks with shaken for a total -4 penalty to saving throws. Now the bloodrager uses 12 rounds of rage (the human favored class bonus helps us a lot here!) to cast quickened blindness on the poor sap. If we assume a charisma of 18, this has an equivalent DC of 20 or be blinded and take a full attack next round.

Use the tools the book gives you. The bloodrager is obviously not going to be an amazing sorcerer, but don't throw these options away prematurely. For those that will tell me about just how huge an investment it is to do this, I can tell you that this bloodrager plays great with other spellcasters as well.


swoosh wrote:

Well, unique spell lists let you tailor things for a lot of classes and let you give people early access or things from other lists they wouldn't normally get. Paizo also does a decent job not abandoning any class when it prints new spells.

The Bloodrager list just is asynergistic.

While that is true in the case of Bloodrager it shares a similar casting schtick with Magus so getting a new spell list is pointless and makes it lose spells outside the hardcovers that it may want. To me that is too high of a cost in both what it loses and the work involved in deciding what spells at what level are good for it for myself. Especially since it has a mechanic to add spells to its spells known list that wouldn't normally be in its spell list. I've also made the argument that with other classes it has been redundant or detrimental and the tailoring can happen by other means.

Sovereign Court

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So, maybe there's some useless stuff on the bloodrager spell list. I don't think there's a class that has only good stuff on its spell list. Let's talk about the spells that are awesome for bloodragers.

Level 1

  • Blade Lash - that's a trip attack at 20 feet range, with a bonus that gives you really good odds. If you happen to be Enlarged, that helps too, especially when flooring big monsters.
  • Blurred Movement - the concealment will let you walk past people without provoking AoOs, and it lasts for minutes per level. GMs might rule that the first 10ft aren't shrouded, but even so; you have Fast Movement and you could just take a detour, then walk right past enemies to get to a caster.
  • Enlarge Person - for obvious reasons.
  • Long Arm - dominate the battlefield with natural reach. It stacks with just about everything, it's insanely good.
  • Shield - odds are you're fighting with a 2H weapon or claws.
  • True Strike - you actually like being in melee. I'm sure you can come up with a use for this.

    Level 2

  • Mirror Image - since people will be trying to hit back at you...
  • Scorching Ray - they were so sure you could only do melee damage. But this is a ranged touch attack and you have full BAB.
  • See Invisibility - yeah, that's a spell the wizard can't cast for you.

    Level 3

  • Beast Shape I, Monstrous Physique I, Undead Anatomy I - lots of versatility, including movement modes, breathing underwater and lots of natural weapons.
  • Fly - back in the days wizards flew up to taunt barbarians from the skies. Those days are over.
  • Haste - duh
  • Paragon Surge - this is your Martial Versatility

    Level 4

  • Beast Shape II - Pounce, grab, and size bonuses to Strength
  • Elemental Body - if the GM agrees that a humanoid-ish air elemental can still wield weapons, you just became terrifyingly fast. You have Shield and Mage Armor for defence, on your own list; but you'll be going on offence. Alternatively, go through the walls as an earth elemental.
  • Stoneskin - again, people will be trying to hurt you.


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    Umbranus wrote:
    Eltacolibre wrote:
    Bloodrager are fine.

    I really think I would be hard pressed if I tried to make it worse. There are no buffs and no utility spells at low levels.

    If I ever want to play one I'll offer the GM to pay blood sanctuary in exchange to being allowed the magus list.

    No buffs?

    enlarge/reduce person
    animal aspect
    true strike
    magic weapon
    mirror image
    bull's strength and friends
    protection from <insert alignment here>
    haste (arguably the most popular buff of all)
    elemental aura
    fire shield
    beast shape I/II/monstrous physique II/elemental body I

    I've left out a bunch of others, but those stood out as moderately to extremely popular buffs, especially for someone mixing it up in melee.

    It's definitely not as tricked out as magus or even summoner, but there are buffs available.

    Edit: Mostly ninja'd. And I didn't even see paragon surge--wow.

    Sovereign Court

    I left out spells that I thought weren't sufficiently absurdly powerful or versatile, or that another character could cast on your behalf.

    Really, if you comb through threads complaining that melee characters are handicapped, you'll find a lot of the classic "and here's how wizards deal with that" in the list I posted.

    I also like that a first-level bloodrager can use a Wand of Shield.

    Dark Archive

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    Umbranus wrote:
    Eltacolibre wrote:
    Bloodrager are fine.

    I really think I would be hard pressed if I tried to make it worse. There are no buffs and no utility spells at low levels.

    If I ever want to play one I'll offer the GM to pay blood sanctuary in exchange to being allowed the magus list.

    Bloodrager spells that don't suck: the forum post.


    Another note, exactly how good of a caster does Bloodrager need to be? Its not like it has all that many spells to cast to begin with so I don't think it's all that important. It's first level spells include Enlarge Person, how much better than that do you really need for a full BAB class?


    Compare the spells I called out as ones I miss from the magus list with those you point out from the br list and you should see that we seem to aim for different things in a class that does not need magic to be good at fighting.


    Umbranus wrote:
    Compare the spells I called out as ones I miss from the magus list with those you point out from the br list and you should see that we seem to aim for different things in a class that does not need magic to be good at fighting.

    That's true but I'm a bit biased towards "it should have just had the Magus list." so I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.

    One more serious note, What does the Bloodrager list get that the Magus list does not get or gets late? I ask because looking at a sampling of Bloodrager spells I don't see anything so far that isn't on the Magus list so would the Bloodrager lose anything for having the Magus list? (except Mage Armor, which is really stupid in my opinion. It can wear medium armor without spell failure and is a full BAB d10HD class. What justification is there for Bloodrager to have Mage Armor and not Magus who sometimes goes into dex builds? By the time the Bloodrager gets to cast Mage Armor, almost any armor it would be using at that point is way better. it would just eat up one of the precious few spell slots it has. )


    1st: break, endure elements, protection from x, we bolt
    2nd: adhaesive blood, blood armor,

    those are some spells I noticed the br gets that are not on the magus list. But it was no full comparison as I am on my mobile. And only the first two levels.
    I guess adhaesive blood, for example, is strong. But I would still rather use the magus list.

    better don your med armor with a spell in an emergency than killing an everyday foe quicker with a blast.


    Or you could enlarge person and murder everything quicker.


    Umbranus wrote:

    1st: break, endure elements, protection from x, we bolt

    2nd: adhaesive blood, blood armor,

    those are some spells I noticed the br gets that are not on the magus list. But it was no full comparison as I am on my mobile. And only the first two levels.
    I guess adhaesive blood, for example, is strong. But I would still rather use the magus list.

    better don your med armor with a spell in an emergency than killing an everyday foe quicker with a blast.

    Are you really going to take up one of your few spells known slots with something that might get used once in awhile in a emergency, rather than a buff or attack spell you can use regularly?


    I'm not sure the spell list sucks is the right term, you've got some great buffs on the list.

    But I am left wondering why it has so much stuff like burning hands and flaming sphere on its list when Paizo had to know that the class didn't have the support for casting offensive spells in combat.

    Frankly I would like it if the class were better at casting stuff like that, because it's pretty thematic... but between the obvious emphasis on physical combat, the poor save DCs and the lack of features that mesh magic and martial they're just kind of dead weight.


    The only thing I don't like about the Bloodrager spelllist is a lack of low-level Polymorph spells to work with the Rageshaper archetype. :/


    People are aware that not all combat starts with your being able to attack your target right? Often times, It is disadvantageous to be the guy who moves first since you only get a single attack in where they get a full. With their few blast spells they can spend there turn moving closer then blasting to get their attention and wait for the enemy to come to them.

    Sovereign Court

    Are there spells that are "obviously missing"? The only one I found conspicuously absent was Magic Fang, for the bloodlines that get natural weapons.


    "I would like to inform all here that I wash regularly, and, in fact, my mask is kept quite clean. Also, I do not even cast spells, so I would, in general, appreciate a lack of insinuation about my personal hygiene or odor. Thank you." he says, in a blank monotone.


    PIXIE DUST wrote:
    People are aware that not all combat starts with your being able to attack your target right? Often times, It is disadvantageous to be the guy who moves first since you only get a single attack in where they get a full. With their few blast spells they can spend there turn moving closer then blasting to get their attention and wait for the enemy to come to them.

    Which doesn't change the fact that "X Negates" saving throws are a bad place to be on a class that can't throw very much into their casting stat.

    Sovereign Court

    The spells that allow saving throws, I'll probably never use them with a bloodrager. I don't really know why they can get them. But the list has a lot of good self-buffs and some attacks that work well with a martial like Blade Lash. There's more good choices available than you have Spells Known picks, so I think it's fine.


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    I'm not sure why a Bloodrager can't be happy with some nice buffs and no-save blasts; I mean, you're still essentially a Barbarian who can take rage powers with feats if inclined.

    Shield yourself, put a nice blast in your Spell Storing Weapon, Frigid Touch things you don't want to see a full attack from, etc. Fly is nice, though Monstrous Physique at level 3 lets you turn into a flying Gargoyle...

    The Blood Conduit looks like it could be a lot of fun for getting in some spell-combat type goodness. Swing a two-hander, but use unarmed strike (Bodywrap) once per round to drop maybe an Intensified Shocking Grasp or a Rime Frostbite? Maybe grab Greater Brawler to make your unarmed strike as a TWF offhand? Anyhow, a Haste charged Blood Conduit dropping 2HSword/Unarmed/Spell/2HSword is certainly getting mileage out of his spell list.


    Am I insane, or does a level 20 Abyssal bloodrager get +14 Str and a free enlarge person while in a bloodrage?

    Keep your flaming claws, Paizo. I'm gonna greatsword the s*** out of this game.


    Not seeing a problem here.

    You want to make a decent Save DC for a BR?
    Cornugon Smash Plus Riving Stike will drop a +4 to saves.

    Or you could just take the HP hit and use Rage Casting feat. Reminds me of SCANNERS. Take damage to cast harder.

    Dark Archive

    A metamagic rager that invests a bit in charisma can throw spells (even Quickened spells) while in melee. In fact, thanks to Blood Sanctuary, he has a better chance of making a save against a fireball he throws.

    A bloodrager with the Rage Casting feat can throw spells with surprisingly high save DCs, and the loss of hit points just goes along with the high-risk, high-reward playstyle.

    I'll post a blasting bloodrager later on. I don't think this class stinks at spells, but I do think that people might have different expectations from mine. In the bloodrager I've found a class that can charge an enemy like a barbarian but blast the mooks in passing. I'm pretty pleased with the class' casting ability.


    well if you can finagle some ragecycling metamagic rager isnt too bad. but even then unless you are investing in your casting stat, you wont have the spells per day to be worth a darn. Also for some weird reason paladins and rangers have one more 4th level spell slot by level 20, which is the usually the opposite paradigm of how spontaneous and prepared casters usually work.


    Thelemic_Noun wrote:

    Am I insane, or does a level 20 Abyssal bloodrager get +14 Str and a free enlarge person while in a bloodrage?

    Keep your flaming claws, Paizo. I'm gonna greatsword the s*** out of this game.

    Pretty much... Abyssal Bloodragers are some of the most rediculous when it comes to strength boosts...

    If you want to get real cheesy you can also take the Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) feats to get the inherent strength bonus from Sorcerer Abyssal bloodline. this inherent bonus will actually cap out higher than what you could get with the Wish spells (it caps out at +6 instead of the standard +5).

    This will net you total:

    +6 Str EH
    +8 Mighty Blood Rage
    +6 Abyssal Bloodline
    +2 Size Bonus from Enlarge
    +5 from leveling
    +6 from item

    netting you a total of:

    +33 bonus to strength

    This is also not including using spells like Beast Shape or such to further increase your strength...

    yeah... abyssal bloodragers are mean...

    RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

    thejeff wrote:
    Umbranus wrote:

    1st: break, endure elements, protection from x, we bolt

    2nd: adhaesive blood, blood armor,

    those are some spells I noticed the br gets that are not on the magus list. But it was no full comparison as I am on my mobile. And only the first two levels.
    I guess adhaesive blood, for example, is strong. But I would still rather use the magus list.

    better don your med armor with a spell in an emergency than killing an everyday foe quicker with a blast.

    Are you really going to take up one of your few spells known slots with something that might get used once in awhile in a emergency, rather than a buff or attack spell you can use regularly?

    For as few spells per day as the Bloodrager gets, yes. Not until very late level does he even have enough first-level spells to cast Shield for every fight. Spells you want to cast regularly should be in wands, while spell slots are reserved for once-in-a-while spells (like magic missile on the heavily damaged guy trying to retreat, Feather Fall, etc.). That's why I abandoned my Shocking Grasp + Greater Grapple build.


    Mergy wrote:

    A metamagic rager that invests a bit in charisma can throw spells (even Quickened spells) while in melee. In fact, thanks to Blood Sanctuary, he has a better chance of making a save against a fireball he throws.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Quickened spells? They have level 4 spells, and quickened requires a spell slot that is 4 levels higher. As bloodragers do not have orisions... I must simply ask... Que?

    Sure you could use a rod, but... why do that when you can have two weapons or a single big weapon in two hands?

    Dark Archive

    TheJayde wrote:
    Mergy wrote:

    A metamagic rager that invests a bit in charisma can throw spells (even Quickened spells) while in melee. In fact, thanks to Blood Sanctuary, he has a better chance of making a save against a fireball he throws.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Quickened spells? They have level 4 spells, and quickened requires a spell slot that is 4 levels higher. As bloodragers do not have orisions... I must simply ask... Que?

    Sure you could use a rod, but... why do that when you can have two weapons or a single big weapon in two hands?

    The metamagic rager archetype can use rounds of rage to cast spells with metamagic feats. It costs twice as many rounds of rage as the final level of the spell, so it's important to take advantage of things like the human favoured class bonus.

    Quickened fireball + fireball for two 3rd level slots (craft some runestones of power) and 14 rounds of rage. Definitely enough to take out an encounter of mooks.


    Mergy wrote:
    TheJayde wrote:
    Mergy wrote:

    A metamagic rager that invests a bit in charisma can throw spells (even Quickened spells) while in melee. In fact, thanks to Blood Sanctuary, he has a better chance of making a save against a fireball he throws.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Quickened spells? They have level 4 spells, and quickened requires a spell slot that is 4 levels higher. As bloodragers do not have orisions... I must simply ask... Que?

    Sure you could use a rod, but... why do that when you can have two weapons or a single big weapon in two hands?

    The metamagic rager archetype can use rounds of rage to cast spells with metamagic feats. It costs twice as many rounds of rage as the final level of the spell, so it's important to take advantage of things like the human favoured class bonus.

    Quickened fireball + fireball for two 3rd level slots (craft some runestones of power) and 14 rounds of rage. Definitely enough to take out an encounter of mooks.

    Oooh. Neat. Didnt know you were referring to an archetype, and just saying a bloodrager that used metamagic feats. Good to know.


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    You want Quickened Spells? How about the ring of vengeful blood magic? I think I have that title correct...anyway, it allows casting of bloodrager spells as an AoO! The spell must include the target of your AoO, but that is the only stipulation, IIRC. You don't get quicker than that.


    Ascalaphus wrote:
    Are there spells that are "obviously missing"? The only one I found conspicuously absent was Magic Fang, for the bloodlines that get natural weapons.

    I feel like the Bloodrager should have gotten Strong Jaw for the same reason, but I can let it slide since it's just been a nature magic spell up until now.

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