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Hi all,

My group used to play Core only for quite a while, but now we've opened it up to basically anything here on the Paizo PRD (though the current GM doesn't like traits, so we don't use those.)

I've noticed that often times when someone recommends a powerful option, it comes from beyond the Paizo PRD. Is the general consensus that material available beyond the Paizo PRD tends to be more powerful?

When our current campaign ends, I'll probably end up GMing again, and while I like offering as many options as possible to the players, I don't want there to be a huge disparity between someone who makes a core-only or Paizo PRD-only character versus one that can use material from beyond the Paizo PRD.

Do others notice this increase in power beyond the Paizo PRD? Do you place any restrictions on this additional material, allow everything, or allow nothing?


The only restriction I always use is no third party stuff.

As far as I know there is no real power difference between the stuff on the PRD (basically the paizo hardcover books) and the smaller softcover books published by paizo.

More options naturally means more chances for good combo's and synergies, so a character build with all paizo material will probably be stronger than a core only character.


There are a few specific options outside of the PRD that also happen to be more powerful that any similar options by a wide margin. Blood Money stands out as a big offender. Snowball is another similar one (no SR conjuration damage dealing spell, orb flashbacks anyone?). Not all of them are game breakers, but many are strictly better than any similar option.

Then there were the ones that were the only way to do things. Before the Advanced Class Guide Dervish Dance and Agile were the only options for melee Dex to damage, both are from non-PRD sources (I think). They're not powerful or broken or anything like that, just the only way to actually do the thing you want (and it's niche enough they put it in a softcover instead of a hardcover).

Of course, Simulacrum, Planar Binding/Ally, Wish, etc. all still exist in the Core Rulebook so I can't really say power has increased too much beyond the PRD. Beast Totem is Advanced Player's Guide. Archaeologist is Ultimate Combat. Both of those are on the PRD. There's just little snippets here and there that are a "better" choice so people take them if they can.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Of course, Simulacrum, Planar Binding/Ally, Wish, etc. all still exist in the Core Rulebook so I can't really say power has increased too much beyond the PRD.

I notice it a lot more as compared to the things you listed above, which don't come into play until high level. Recently I noticed in a few other threads where people were recommending that characters purchase "Boots of Earth", which grants fast healing 1/round as long as you don't move. Assuming I am understanding that correctly, that means at the end of each combat, you wait a short period of time, and you're fully healed. That seems like a big jump from PRD material.

Another one that I have noticed several times is the "Fey Foundling" feat, which grants a bonus to healing spells. Another is a feat (or perhaps trait, not sure) that reduces a the level increase of a metamagic feat (instead of +2 for Empower Spell, it would be only +1, as an example.)

These are just a few that I recall off the top of my head. I seem to be noticing a pattern that anytime there is advice provided for character creation, the items/feats/etc that people recommend often come from a non-PRD source.


It's not necessarily that the soft cover books offer stuff that's seriously overpowered, it's that it opens up many many many options which allows optimizers to really really optimize. Fey Foundling, for example, isn't an overpowered feat, but do a search for "Fey Foundling Oracle Paladin" and you'll find numerous threads all toting the Life-Oracle/Paladin multiclass as by far the best healer. Prior to fey foundling very few people would have put themselves two levels behind in their Oracle progression to pick up lay on hands. And if you're group is the type to multiclass for optimization, watch out for prestige classes like mammoth rider. You can take 4 levels of Cavalier, the feat Horse Master, 5 levels of any class in the game, and then upgrade your horse to a huge-sized colossus of a tiger with pounce, grab, and rake. And there are tons of other ways to get there too. AND don't forget that your players needn't find really clever or powerful interactions themselves; goobers like myself populate these boards with min/max options constantly.

In general, the soft covers aren't broken, they just enable greater min/maxing. That's only a problem if your group makes it one.


Ah, you're hitting the problem of "fluff is supposed to restrict this item and it's ignored". Boots of the Earth, for instance, are meant to be used by worshippers of Torag. You wouldn't know this as this isn't an actual restriction on the item (unlike previous religious things they've published). Fey Foundling means you were found in the woods bearing the mark of the fey. Presumably there's social stigma attached? These are a great deal clearer in the original material, stripped of IP and dropped on d20pfsrd or the PRD they lose that.

As for the metamagic reducers, the first one (Magical Lineage) came from the Advanced Player's Guide. The second (Wayang Spellhunter) is supposed to be a very specific regional trait tied to a specific region (and probably race, from the name). Again, completely lacking in the description. Also someone had the bright idea of making it a regional trait and not a magical trait, so you can take both and stack them. That's the only reason you ever hear about the second one because without that it's just a copy of the first.

The reason you'll see discussions ignoring these various fluff restrictions is because, well, they're fluff. Fluff has always been mutable, and while the items are created by Paizo to fit the fluff of their world, players can (and will) mold the fluff to fit what they want to do with it. If the written mechanics don't have the restrictions that the designers assumed were going to be placed on them, well, then they're not going to be restricted.

And if you'd like me to point out low levels things in the PRD, let's see what I can dig up. Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Beast Totem(APG). If we upgrade to higher levels, Come and Get Me. Quick Runner's Shirt. Fate's Favored + Archaeologist/any other luck bonuses. Luckstone even. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier. Gloves of Reconnaissance.

The PRD covers the Core Rulebook, APG, and Ultimate Combat/Magic/Equipment/Campaign. Outside of a very few choice bits, you'll find that most of what's recommended is already found in that set of books.


The major issue is that there are just more options. More options means more combos and more content. Some of these are going to be more powerful, sure. But that is no different from, say, the core feat power attack which is incredibly powerful by comparison to other feats. Really, it depends on your group. You will likely see an increase in general power, but not much unless your players go super cheesy and hunt down those particularly powerful combos. The benefit is greater variety in builds and options.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
These are a great deal clearer in the original material, stripped of IP and dropped on d20pfsrd or the PRD they lose that.

I agree with your assessment. Different GMs will enforce different rules based on how the content is presented in the source material. Personally, I'm not a fan of a character backstory that involves traveling to three different regions, being adopted by two different races, and have three special life-altering events occur just to check the required boxes to be eligible for various feats/traits/etc.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Quick Runner's Shirt. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier. Gloves of Reconnaissance.

I'm only going to address these ones (because you provided links which made it super easy to review and laziness :)

None of these items seem particularly game-breaking. The Quick Runner's shirt - 1 extra move action 1 time per day? That's very tame IMO. Jingasa - +1 luck bonus to AC plus negate a crit/SA 1 time per day. Nice, but not game-breaking. Gloves of Reconnaissance - see/hear through 15 ft. or less walls for 10 rounds/day. Again, nice, but not game-breaking.

Compare that to Boots of Earth - unlimited healing. That's game-breaking as it eliminates a big part of the resource-management aspect of the game.

Maybe its just a handful of incredibly-powerful options that make the non-PRD material seem overpowered. I'll try to keep my eyes open for other examples.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Bart Vervaet wrote:

The only restriction I always use is no third party stuff.

A lot of the 3pp stuff is as or better balanced than Paizo Core materials. Dreamscarred Press' Ultimate Psionics is praised by fans and reviewers alike for being a fun, highly flavorful, and excellently balanced option, with casting classes that are much better balanced than wizards and sorcerers.

Most of the materials from Legendary Games and Rogue Genius Games are actually written by authors who are Paizo employees or regular freelancers.

The incredible quality of Rite Publishing's Masquerade Reveler could very well have been a major contributing factor in why Mark Seifter got SKR's old job.

Basically, "no third party" is a really good rule for missing out on a lot of good stuff.

My general rule is that a single character can't use more than 3 source books in character creation. What often happens is that when a single character is allowed to use a dozen different books for his build, he ends up with such a broad array of materials at hand that it becomes easy for him to exploit unintended synergies (like Fey Foundling Oradins with Boots of the Earth). Ignoring the region, religion, or campaign specific quality of a given material is another good way to end up with characters who've grafted together things that were never intended to be used in concert.


Quick Runner's Shirt turns a swift into a move. This lets you move and full attack at whatever level you get it. And with the cost, you should have 20 and change your shirt every battle. I don't think there's anything in setting books quite as nice for a martial character. It also sets a terrible precedent for item creation, as unlimited swift->move would cost 5,000.

Jingasa is a similar effect. Fairly cheap and crits are rare enough you probably don't expect to have more than one or two a battle anyway, so with enough money you don't have to fear them at all. This is compared to <type> fortification armor, which grants you always on 25/50/75% chance to negate crits, for minimum 3,000 (+1 light fort) to 35,000 (+1 heavy fort). Versus 5,000 for auto negate one crit/sneak attack.

Gloves of Reconnaissance are a special case of the writer not paying attention to pre-existing rules. Compare them to the Ring of X-Ray Vision and tell me the gloves aren't in every way superior. And for the price of one ring, I could have 12 gloves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's not power creep. I'm just saying a lot of the creep is in the PRD and not the setting books. The setting books usually have one feat/magic item/archetype that's worth it (and many other flavorful and power neutral/worse options) and that's it, the PRD has Ninja (better Rogue), Gunslinger (dex to damage touch attacks), Double-Barreled Pistols, Beast Totem (pounce and scaling NA) Spell Sunder (Dispel Magic with iterative attacks) Barbarian, Master Summoner and Synthesist. And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure if I hunted I could find more.

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