Forgive me if this has been brought up, couldn't find it if it has.
I happily purchased a few of the class decks today, but have never really sat down and compared the many different incarnations of the main 7 iconics. I can see the logic in the different Valeroses, Kyras, Harsks, etc., but right now it seems that the original RotR Lem just isn't worth playing anymore.
Skull & Shackles Lem has:
Recharge a card to add 1d4 to a check by ANY character at your location, which would include Lem.
RotR Lem has the same talent but only for OTHER characters at the location.
S&S Lem has:
"When you recharge a card, you may instead shuffle it." This power is amazing when used properly. allowing for better odds for drawing cards you know would otherwise be at the bottom.
RotR Lem doesn't have this, nor does the Bard Class Deck Lem.
Finally, S&S Lem's ability to turn a finessed weapon into a melee weapon seems to far overpower RotR's Lem's traditional "jack of trades" aspect, since S&S Lem has all of that as well.
The only thing that RotR Lem has over S&S Lem is that he starts off with a 6 card hand.
Am I missing something, is old Lem worthless now?
RotRL Lem could get up to 6 spells and also had the ability to trade cards from his hand and discard pile at the start of his turn (and end of the turn with a role power). This made him a very effective healer, as he would rarely want to recharge his Cure spells and just swap it for something else in his hand. The additional spells allowed him much more versatility in which spells to carry as well (couple of Cures, couple of cloud spells, find traps, Haste, Swipe, etc.).
It also depends on what set you're playing. If you're in RotR, then several of S&S Lems powers are useless as there are no Firearm, Task, Ship, Plunder, Swashbuckling, or Pirate cards and not that many Aquatic cards. So in RotR, 3 of Lem (Sea Singer)'s power feats are useless/borderline useless and 6 of Lem (Freebooter)'s power feats are useless. And CD Lem never gets the ability to use his bonus d4 on himself.
Now would I ever want to play RotR Lem in S&S? Nope. But I wouldn't want to use any RotR characters over their S&S counterparts in S&S, at least not until I'd tried all of the S&S characters. In general the S&S characters will have an advantage in S&S over the RotR characters (with Lini being a possible exception). And in general the reverse is also true (though less so). Some characters are S&S characters are virtually unplayable in RotR without adding cards from S&S to the box (Jirelle, Lirianne, Damiel), though some would have no problem going back (Alahazra, Seltyiel, Oloch).
So, no, RotR Lem is still worth playing. Just not in S&S :)
Here's a blurb I wrote in the "vote for your favorite OP character" thread: (link)
RotR Lem - Choosing your favorite card here is great as Lem only has one weapon - but for that reason he only needs one. I went through all of RotR relying on weapons but only having one in his deck. 4-6 spells are great again. And he can swap out allies or spells or blessings for others of the same type that fit his situation better. This is really useful, especially for spells, since they cover a wide variety of situations. But the best thing about RotR Lem is his overall balance - good spread of cards and skills - combined with the Virtuoso's ability to let him power himself as well as others. This character is just solid.
S&S Lem - At first, I wasn't too enthralled by this Lem. Two weapons three spells instead of one weapon four spells isn't ideal on a bard since you can always start with his weapon. Many of his role abilities are situational, too. But the more I look at him, the more I warm up to him. The finesse ability makes his combat game a little better, he picks his favorite card type, he gets to shuffle into his deck instead of recharge, and his ability that ads d4's to non-combat checks against banes also works on barriers (the word "combat" always makes me think of monsters, so this took a bit to sink in). Most importantly, though, he can buff himself with the recharge for d4 ability from the get-go, an ability on RotR Lem that's so good that I never consider RotR's other role. This is fantastic. S&S Lem can handle his own combats right from the start of the adventure path easily without having to spend precious spell slots on attack spells. Another solid character.
CD Lem - This Lem is all about the spells. His favorite card type becomes spell instead of choice, he's got fantastic arcane and divine skills, and his Mending ability becomes spell only, which isn't so bad as that's what it's used on 80% of the time. But there's one glaring problem here athat turned me off of him compared to the prior 3 bards for a while: he STILL only has the same 4-6 spells. When he wants them for his combat, for his utility, for his mending ability, for his recharge-to-draw abilities on his role cards, this is just not enough to work with, or at least not as many as you want. He also can't help himself with his aid ability ever, although he gets to heal himself if he recharges a healing card... accept that those aren't exactly populous and the main one will be, oh wait, cure - a spell! He wants to do so much with his limited spell slots. He's very solid except for that relatively small number of spells. I did notice something that moved him back into the running for me, however. Both of his roles have an ability to recharge an arcane or divine card, depending on the role, to draw a card. Now, there are a few items with these traits that he can do this with, but the vast majority are just spells, which he does not want to be putting back in his deck, so I counted this as a wasted set of powers... until I remembered that all blessings are divine. That makes this power (on the tent preacher role anyway) much more interesting and useful, since hes bound to have several blessings on top of spells and potentially items to recharge.
EDIT: That part about the blessings is wrong, I misread the card.
What it really boils down to is that the CD Lem isn't that great and RotR Lem is better for you than S&S Lem if you like spells.
CD Lem just doesn't have enough spells in his deck to be a spellcaster like his powers want him to be, and he really suffers from not being able to d4 himself. He also can't choose his favorite card. Finally, his role cards offer little flexibility, as many of the powers are the same save for one word between the two roles. So he's the worst of the three (in my opinion).
S&S Lem has three main things going for him (regardless of what adventure you play): he can d4 himself without a Role Card power; he can shuffle recharges; and he can use weapons better. RotR Lem has 4-6 spells instead of 3-4, can discard cards (usually spells) to get back other cards of the same type, has an extra hand card to start, and only has one weapon*.
I actually think RotR Lem is best, with S&S a close second that I welcome for being different. IF you are going solely for being a support character and don't care about holding your own, CD Lem may be best for utility. But I like to be able to at least get through one explore a turn without a hand wipe (hyperbole, yes, but still).
---
*Provided you don't have to discard this, only one weapon is a good thing due to Lem's ability to choose his favorite card.
---
EDIT: And yes, I would take RotR Lem of S&S Lem even in the S&S adventure path if I was trying to play my best game. But, mostly because of how much I played RotR Lem in RotR, I would probably have S&S Lem as my first choice since I think I'd have more fun.
|
It amazes me how many threads there are about how one character (or version thereof) is "better" than another.
Different Lems are going to be better for different players, depending on how people like to roll. Each one has strengths and weaknesses. The main theme(s) in all of the bard characters (Lem or otherwise) seem(s) to be:
- Ability to cast divine and arcane
- Decent at many things but excellent at almost none...except maybe Charisma / diplomacy
- Usually pretty good at helping other players
- Usually good at getting the right cards into one's hand
I myself probably prefer Runelords Lem due to the ability to swap out spells, but can see the benefits of other versions. Play whatever one you think you'd prefer. If you look at a characters' powers and say: "Why would anyone NOT take this...it's insanely awesome", then this should be a good sign that you've just found a play-style that you like, and you should do it.
At the same time, be under no illusions that someone else could probably "beat you at PACG" with another, different character, because they're able to use that characters' strengths to good effect.
It amazes me how many threads there are about how one character (or version thereof) is "better" than another.
Some of us get kicks out of making builds the very best possible. Think of it like we're trying to be the best we can be, and asking for advice to that end. :)
Just about the end of AD2 with Lem, and the cap of 4 spells is already making me cry. Never getting another spell is just so sad. And then only one extra item. Feels like there's so little to look forward to. :(
Starting being able to buff himself is definitely nice, especially once you get that +1, but knowing that it came in AD4 for RoRL makes it harder to stomach that he can't swap spells in his discard whenever he wants. This causes me to almost always recharge a card when recharging Cure. Even then, I keep two Cures in my deck, so half my spells are earmarked for healing and might always be, depending on how the AP shakes out.
The melee buff is nice, I guess, but it's not useful for any barrier I've seen that uses melee and it's only a +1. Generally, I stick with the Electric Blunderbuss+1 and recharge the Tiderwater Cutlass. Blunderbuss has better dice to start, as do many ranged weapons vs. finesse melee, since a Cat o' Nine tales hasn't shown up in our Leiya game.
Many good points in this thread and definitely clears up a few things for me, thank you.
If you look at a characters' powers and say: "Why would anyone NOT take this...it's insanely awesome", then this should be a good sign that you've just found a play-style that you like, and you should do it.
I also find the flip version of this to be true as well... the characters are so well set up that when I look at an ability and find it to be useless, there's usually a really fascinating and fun way to make it central to your gameplay. (E.g. I largely ignored RotR Lem's swap ability, because the options it provides didn't jump out at me... I'm specifically going to play S&S Lem in our next game, to see what else I can do with him, even with the changes.)
|
|
I also find the flip version of this to be true as well... the characters are so well set up that when I look at an ability and find it to be useless, there's usually a really fascinating and fun way to make it central to your gameplay.
Poking at character-powers that seem underwhelming can be a great way to find new and different ways to enjoy the game. I love your approach, Melemkor.
Barriers once thought to be difficult can turn out to be a source of strength, monsters once unbeatable can become pieces of cake, boons once weak can become invaluable. Of course, this involves tradeoffs, but the more facets of the game you can see, the more you can win in any situation.
There is no "best," only "favorite." PACG is generally pretty good at giving all characters a chance to shine in some way or another, even if the random card draws can make it seem otherwise in personal experience.