How do you handle Bloodrager and Dragon Disciple


Homebrew and House Rules


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I was wondering how people house ruled the interaction between DD and Bloodrager, or how you would handle it if it came up.

Personally I think they could work together but aren't really meant to.

the lower BAB equals out with the higher strength, but nets more damage out. This with the bloodrager's already formidable bloodrage, and I'm cautious to allow it, but I want the hybrid classes to have a connection with their parents, so I probably would and am unsure of exactly if this would be all that worse than a normal bloodrager.

There are also some holes, such as how do the dragon form and wing abilities interact. the abilities from a bloodrager only come out during a bloodrage, but the dragon disciple ones can be used any time.

a few choices i have seen
(A) do not stack, do not need same bloodline
(B) do not stack, need same bloodline
(C) levels stack, need same bloodline
(D) levels stack, do not need same bloodline ("A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline.")

but I haven't seen on anything to cover the holes, or the differently spaced out bloodrager abilities.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

A is Wrong
B is Wrong
D is Wrong

The only correct answer is C. From the moment he class was announced, it was understood to be a single-class-buy-in to Dragon Disciple.

Bloodlines are Bloodlines. You cannot have 3 different Bloodlines from 3 different Classes - your Bloodlines must be the same across all classes (at least as much as possible... Crossblooded does weird stuff).

Whether you're a Bloodrager, Sorcerer, Blood Arcanist, or anything else, you MUST take the Dragon Bloodline before entering the class if you want to take it with a Bloodline; otherwise, Bard or Skald will get you in, but then you'll have to take the Dragon Bloodline and thereafter be stuck with at least half Dragon Bloodline (You could take Crossblooded Sorc or Crossblooded Bloodrager, but if you take Blood Arcanist later you must take Dragon only)

The "stacks with Sorc" is an artifact from when Sorcerers were the ONLY class that had access to Bloodlines. Now, at LEAST 3 Classes do (Blood Arcanist, Bloodrager, and Sorc, and I'm probably missing 1 or 2). It's generally understand that it's (unofficially) errata'd to "stacks with all levels of classes which grant access to the Dragon Bloodline".

If you want to get grar-y about it, RAW is that it's Sorc levels alone that're affected. However, most people just take it to mean what I said above, because it's painfully obvious by now how multiclassing with Bloodlines work.

Common sense goes "this book was written in 2009, when they had NO idea they would ever print another class with Bloodlines, and errata'ing ONE prestige class is pretty far down on the to-do list of the devs" and so players and GMs alike have just gone with the obvious ruling without needing to bug Paizo for an update of a single sentence.


When we were playing council of thieves, my wife played a barbarian/sorceress/dragon disciple.

I can't remember the actual build this was years ago, but it definitely mixed rage and DD

She didn't really cast in combat, it was unnecessary, her spells were really only self buffs.

the bonus to the bloodrager is being able to cast and rage, more overall symmetry.

With her dragon disciple powers and abilities. my wife's barbarian became the only human I've ever witnessed bite a vampire to death.


Completely off topic, but finishing monsters off with a bite is very satisfying. My Orc Barbarian ripped a Nightwalker's throat out with his secondary bite attack as a finisher.


As for the Wings, they aren't "always on" per-say. The original intent was that they were like the Sorcerer wings, which could be retracted or unfurled as the Sorcerer saw fit (though taking actions to do so), just like the Claws.

The wings, therefore, would logically only be active when the base ability is, which means they shrink away when the Bloodrager is done Bloodraging.

Dragon Form is the only real "problem" and even that isn't THAT much of an issue.

Basically, they're two abilities with (unfortunately) the same name:

Dragon Disciple's Dragon Form is an ability that copies the effects of Form of the Dragon I 1/day at lv7, and Form of the Dragon II 2/day at lv10.

Bloodrager's Dragon Form is an ability which allows the Bloodrager to automatically copy the effects of Form of the Dragon II WHENEVER he enters a Bloodrage.

Think of them as three effects of the same ability, used different ways - you can either cast FoTDII outside of a Bloodrager 2/day, or you can freely use FoTDII only when you Bloodrage.

They don't actually conflict - they compliment one another.

Sovereign Court

I kinda agree with chbgraphicarts - limiting DD to the sorcerer is just dated.

I would let it continue a dragon bloodline from one prior bloodline class. It's kinda like prestige classes that let you continue spellcasting from a prior class; you have to choose one class to progress in. You can't use Cypher Mage as an ersatz mystic theurge to progress both cleric and wizard casting. You have to choose. Likewise, DD will continue a dragon bloodline from one class you have with dragon bloodline.

Also, no mixing with other bloodlines except through a legal mixer like crossblooded. (I don't like crossblooded.)


It should be noted that a few most classes in the Advanced Class Guide are actually stealth-mutations of Prestige Classes and Archetypes:

The Bloodrager is a very-thinly-veiled Dragon Disciple repackaged as a 20-level-progression class.

The Hunter, likewise, is the Nature Warden

The Arcanist is effectively Paizo's recreation of the Ultimate Magus from 3.5 in Base Class form.

The Swashbuckler is (or tries to be) The Duelist.

The Slayer is The Assassin given a full lv20 progression and a not-ABSOLUTELY-evil spin.

The Sacred Fist is the Champion of Irori on speed.

The Brawler is... well, The Brawler and/or Martial Artist Archetypes.

The Shaman is KINDA the Mystic Theurge. Kinda. Not really, but they couldn't go actually mixing arcane and divine stuff into a single class.

The Warpriest is basically the REAL "Priest" class from 1st & 2nd Ed (not the Cleric or Druid, which are some odd roid-raging super-beings that accidentally were given full Magic-User-esque 9th-level spell progression, when they should have had only 6th or 7th).

Effectively, the only unique class at all is The Investigator. And even THAT class is basically just the Devs going "we want to create Sherlock Holmes, or let people have Investigators for Lovecraftian campaigns - Great Cthulhu's gotta eat SOMETHING!"

---

Just a sidenote, the Bloodrager, Hunter, Slayer, and Swashbuckler are all consequently single-class-buy-ins to those Prestige Classes on which they're based. Just in case you ever feel like taking games up to lv30 easily.


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Now that I mention it, the Bloodrager is ALSO Paizo's answer to everyone who ever asked "Are we going to get a Dragon Disciple-esque Prestige Class for [insert Bloodline here]?"

Yes, yes you are - and it's a 20-level Base Class. Now go have fun making the Balors cry, children.

Paizo largely despises Prestige Classes. Their first answer was to make Archetypes. Their second answer was to take popular Prestige Classes and make Base Classes based on them that would make you forget the PRCs ever existed.

And with good reason - PRCs were the gnarliest part of 3.5 that was also the most necessary, leading to insane levels of multiclassing gymnastics just to get levels in halfway-decent classes... which, of course, would lead you to sometimes taking XP reductions. WOTC was kinda sick & sadistic like that - hanging a candied apple over a bed of nails when you're starving just TICKLES their schadenfruede.

Sovereign Court

Oh, think there are some legitimate prestige classes. For example, the Hellknight, Cyphermage and Harrower. Those are suited for entry through several classes and have a strong tie-in with something in the setting. I think that's a good way to use them.


I actually love the IDEA of the Cyphermage; dunno about the execution (take 4 levels of it to become a scroll-fighter and then leave)

I would love to see them produce a "Scrollmaster" class or Archetype - basically the Alchemist but replace Extracts with Scrolls. Would work fantastically for an Oriental Adventures campaign as an Onmyoji character.

Sovereign Court

Cyphermage is okay as a small dip for wizards. Get some good class skills, use scrolls at your own caster level now and then. It does kinda mess with the rhythm of wizard bonus feats though.


A is wrong.
B is RAW:

Quote:
If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

DD gives you a Sorcerer bloodline of the Draconic nature, so your Bloodrager bloodline has to be Draconic. DD specifies Sorcerer, not just a bloodline, and definitely makes no mention of the Bloodrager. I expect DD to be altered to include Bloodrager some time in the future.

C is what I'd actually do as a GM at home. I would not bank on C for PFS.

D is wrong for the same reason A is.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:

A is wrong.

B is RAW:

Quote:
If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

DD gives you a Sorcerer bloodline of the Draconic nature, so your Bloodrager bloodline has to be Draconic. DD specifies Sorcerer, not just a bloodline, and definitely makes no mention of the Bloodrager. I expect DD to be altered to include Bloodrager some time in the future.

C is what I'd actually do as a GM at home. I would not bank on C for PFS.

D is wrong for the same reason A is.

DD doesn't give you the bloodline, if you only have DD and say are a Bard, you just gain bloodline powers.

though I did think it likely that everyone simply uses C, the holes aren't much of a problem.

Also, I've seen some pretty interesting arguments to allow for A and D.

for instance, DD never once makes mention of needing just the draconic bloodline, you only need it if you have sorcerer levels. Hybrid classes like the swashbuckler or brawler don't innately gain fighter levels, so it stands to reason a bloodrager or arcanist don't gain sorcerer levels.

then if the levels do stack, you can use DD to progress any bloodline and gain the DD abilities. if they do not stack, you can get any bloodline to 10 and get 10 levels of draconic.

Scarab Sages

Key text from the BR's Bloodline feature:

ACG wrote:

If the bloodrager takes levels in another class that grants

a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if
that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must
change. Subject to GM discretion, the bloodrager can
change his former bloodline to make them conform.

That reads to me that "Bloodline" for BR is the same as "Bloodline" for Sorc is the same as "Bloodline" for DD. The call out in Dragon Disciple in the requirements that force the Sorc to take Draconic if taking Sorc after DD would supercede the "Pick One" arguement in Bloodrager, and force the BR to Draconic. In the seventh? printing of the CRB I would expect them to clarify the DD requirements sentences to be compatible with BR.


Bandw2 wrote:
Hybrid classes like the swashbuckler or brawler don't innately gain fighter levels

Actually, the Brawler does, in fact, gain both Fighter AND Monk Levels.

Also, again, you can keep going "well, it only says Sorcerer" which was a fine argument in 2009 when you only had 2 Arcane Spontaneous Casters in the game.

This is 2014, and we're staring at 2 Spontaneous Casters which innately have Bloodlines, and 1 Semi-Prepared Caster which can GAIN a Bloodline in no less than 2 different ways, and - as I said - there may actually be more that I'm missing that can gain Bloodlines.

If DD had just come out last month or during the last Big Book, RAW vs RAI would be called into question here - however it's pretty obvious that RAI trumps RAW here because of the circumstances (Pathfinder's DD being half a decade old).

Excepting PFS, just assume that (C) is the case and go with it until Paizo says otherwise. There's no real "holes" except possibly the Wings, and that's no worse than entering a Battle Herald via a Cavalier/Sensei build instead of using a Bard, and Sensei was printed ONE BOOK LATER than the Battle Herald - THAT is a gnarly interaction that could have easily been avoided but wasn't.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Excepting PFS

And in those two words lie the problem-- there are people asking every few days if they can do that in PFS.

Beyond that, I agree. I would be very surprised at any GM around the kitchen table who actually ruled against the Bloodrager progressing. I certainly wouldn't, nor do I think any of the Pathfinder players/GMs that I know would.

But if you're looking at the RAW, like PFS does... then the Bloodrager is screwed.


kestral287 wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Excepting PFS

And in those two words lie the problem-- there are people asking every few days if they can do that in PFS.

Beyond that, I agree. I would be very surprised at any GM around the kitchen table who actually ruled against the Bloodrager progressing. I certainly wouldn't, nor do I think any of the Pathfinder players/GMs that I know would.

But if you're looking at the RAW, like PFS does... then the Bloodrager is screwed.

My question would be, "why are you taking DD instead of full Bloodrager, anyway?"

You get more HP and similar stat boosts, but you lose out on spellcasting prowess, and you wouldn't get that much extra from the prestige class either way.

If you're going to lv30 and/or you REALLY want the extra HP and stat boosts, the Dragon Disciple makes sense; otherwise, the Bloodrager basically gives you everything the Disciple can in PFS and more.


Pretty much the extra stats/armor. I wouldn't do it, personally, but hey. I've seen people say that they want to around the boards


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

by brawler I meant INNATELY, it is specifically called out.

also, DD never gives you a bloodline, it allows you to count it's levels as sorc levels for the bloodline, but actually just gives you some powers that match from the bloodline, the DD never actually gives out a bloodline. so a Bloodrager could technically have abyssal or something and still get DD.

also, @chbgraphicarts you forgetting the magus and arcanist archetypes which just have you start with a bloodline. :P

also, I'm not exactly Pro A & D, I just see that their arguments do make sense.


chbgraphicarts wrote:


My question would be, "why are you taking DD instead of full Bloodrager, anyway?"

You get more HP and similar stat boosts, but you lose out on spellcasting prowess, and you wouldn't get that much extra from the prestige class either way.

If you're going to lv30 and/or you REALLY want the extra HP and stat boosts, the Dragon Disciple makes sense; otherwise, the Bloodrager basically gives you everything the Disciple can in PFS and more.

You lose more than you gain. Let's break it down:

You lose:

-1 to -3 BAB.
-1 to -3 caster levels
Access to Tireless Rage (if you take more than 3 levels)
Greater/Mighty Bloodrage (depending on amount of levels)
DR 3/-.
Indomitable Will
-1 to -10 levels Favoured Class Bonus
-2 to -20 rage rounds
-2 to -20 skill ranks

You gain:

+ 2 Con
More Breath Weapon!
+ HP (1d12 instead of 1d10, averaging +1 HP/level)
+ 1 to +4 Natural AC
+ 2 Int (+1 skill rank/level back, so +8 to +10 skill ranks)
+ 4 Strength
A minutes/day FotD II instead of a rounds/day.
Blindsense
A Bite attack

In general, I think it is a bad trade-off, even if the bloodlines stack.

However, if you expect a campaign to never go much beyond 15-16 (or PFS) a 4-7 level dip could be cool to get the FotD I capstone. Moreover, the bite attack (without race shennenigans) is also pretty nice if you are pursuing a natural attack build.

However, it makes one wonder if it is worth the loss of stat-improvement while raging and especially the loss of rounds of rage (which will hurt especially at lower levels)

I might actually do just a 2-level dip for the bite, which to me is the only real reason to go this way. I hate that bloodragers do not have Alter Self and Monstrous Physique comes in play rather late.

Guess I am on the fence on whether it would be that great :S

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