How tough is the bbeg? (Spoilers, obv)


Rise of the Runelords


Thinking of running this again, and looking at Krune he seems competent. However, I am a terrible judge of difficulty, so I have to wonder how difficult he really is. How does he hold up against an optimized party? Have you guys had to buff or nerf him to provide a challenge, and if so how?

Liberty's Edge

Krune?


HangarFlying wrote:
Krune?

Yep, Runelord of Sloth Krune is stated in Pathfinder Society Game (The Waking Rune adventure).


Sure - but he's not in Rise of the Runelords :) I haven't read that adventure and have no idea, however I've read (and had to transcribe) every one of the RotRL adventures so I'm happy to give opinions on that (in the RotRL section of the MB anyway).... ;)


God, you know what I mean. I just got the names mixed up because I didn’t have the book in front of me.


Personally from *your* post FanaticRat I assumed you meant Big K at the end - but after Ashkar pointed out there is a runelord named Krune that has an adventure around him I wasn't 100% sure.

As to Big K - he's easier in the new version - and much of the fight will depend on how your party is comprised and how prepared they are going into the fight.

That being said there are easy things you could do to make the fight almost un-winnable for a group of players - so it's a bit of a mixed bag.


Ckorik wrote:

Personally from *your* post FanaticRat I assumed you meant Big K at the end - but after Ashkar pointed out there is a runelord named Krune that has an adventure around him I wasn't 100% sure.

As to Big K - he's easier in the new version - and much of the fight will depend on how your party is comprised and how prepared they are going into the fight.

That being said there are easy things you could do to make the fight almost un-winnable for a group of players - so it's a bit of a mixed bag.

Can you elaborate on how big K might be unwinnable?


Lamontius posted some great tactics in another thread: Use his first Quickened Time Stop to put the melee characters in a Prismatic Sphere, leaving the squishies to fight him and his minions without the assistance of their heavy damage-dealers. Even meaner is to do it a couple of times so he takes on one or two PCs at a time, while he's got all of his minions at his disposal. A Dimensional Lock is another must-have for him to keep the party from popping about.

The AE version doesn't have optimized spells, though. For example, he has neither Prismatic Sphere nor Dimension Lock on his spell list, and instead a huge number of his spells are from the Transmutation school, and therefore fundamentally useless in the fight.

I ran him as-written and he got nuked at the beginning of Round 3, which is why I think some shifting of his spell list is necessary.


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Don't forget Mages's Disjunction. The fact its not in his memorized spells is absurd. Use it on the Dominant Weapons. Oh, you don't want your pretty toys broken? Maybe you shouldn't be assualting the citadel of one of (if not the) most power wizards Golarion has ever seen.

And use his images in the Pinnacle to hammer the pc's with the most powerful spells he has (ignore the tactics given in the AP.) The images give him a chance to attack them with little risk or damage to himself. He should use it.

He's well over 10000 years old, survived as a Runelord for centuries and no matter how arrogant he may be, the pc's are among the greatest dangers he's ever faced. He is going to let them have it with everything he's got - no holds barred.

Try this thought experiment: imagine another DM hired you to run Karzoug for his campaign. For every pc you kill, he pays you $50. What would you do? How would you run Karzoug? What strategies would you devise? And not just in his spell selection (assume there you have access to all the wizard spells in the Core Rulebook if not every other supplement) but in how his minions act as well.

Facing Karzoug should be a "bring me my brown pants" moment for the pc's regardless of level or background (I've used that quote before.)


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Latrecis wrote:
...<Very useful stuff>...

Wow! I mangled your name something awful, didn't I?


NobodysHome wrote:
Latrecis wrote:
...<Very useful stuff>...

Wow! I mangled your name something awful, didn't I?

to be fair there is a Lamontius somewhere on these boards as well, so its an easy mistake:)


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captain yesterday wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Latrecis wrote:
...<Very useful stuff>...

Wow! I mangled your name something awful, didn't I?

to be fair there is a Lamontius somewhere on these boards as well, so its an easy mistake:)

Yeah, but last time I saw, he was the scary clown with the top hat. Latrecis' avatar is far less terrifying. :-P

Speaking of which, aren't you do for a change? It's past the first of the month and all...


NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Latrecis wrote:
...<Very useful stuff>...

Wow! I mangled your name something awful, didn't I?

to be fair there is a Lamontius somewhere on these boards as well, so its an easy mistake:)

Yeah, but last time I saw, he was the scary clown with the top hat. Latrecis' avatar is far less terrifying. :-P

Speaking of which, aren't you do for a change? It's past the first of the month and all...

LoL, i was just thinking last night actually i might need a new Avatar:D but no i might keep Non-Evil Sobek for awhile longer, its not often they do such a good picture of a crocodile god with his nose stuck up in the air like one of those red hatted ladies that stroll the malls on saturday mornings:D

also its.... Picture Day!!!!!
which mean both my wife and daughter are running around freaking out on their hair, while me and my son sit back helplessly and throw out the occasional "you look great!" which is of course met by a mad glare and "you don't understand, its Picture Day! it must be Perfect!"
fun times, its only going to get wor.... er, better i mean:)


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You and I are going to be awarded "Paizo honorary hats of thread derailment."

It's Picture Day here in the S.F. Bay Area, too. Scary!

But only for my 10-year-old son, whose response is, "Huh? Why should I have to dress differently on picture day?"


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We're just being proactive, its going to derail somewhere or fade into the backdrop, better it derail on picture day then a bunch of noise and ill thought jabs:D


Also huge, huge props go to Latrecis not only for thinking up all the stuff he thinks but also taking the time to write it down on these boards for the rest of us to poach, and lets not forget that he does this and then repeats it every couple weeks whenever someone new has issues:)

Latrecis, you sir are a saint (even if the church won't recognize it, we do!)
also NobodysHome and Tangent for putting up with my Shtick:)

edit: and Orthos and tacticslion:)


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captain yesterday wrote:

Also huge, huge props go to Latrecis not only for thinking up all the stuff he thinks but also taking the time to write it down on these boards for the rest of us to poach, and lets not forget that he does this and then repeats it every couple weeks whenever someone new has issues:)

Latrecis, you sir are a saint (even if the church won't recognize it, we do!)
also NobodysHome and Tangent for putting up with my Shtick:)

You forgot Orthos. Vengeance will be his... once he chooses a new avatar, of course...

EDIT: The squirrel? Check the 10-Kuthona-4707 section. The squirrel might not be best...


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NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

Also huge, huge props go to Latrecis not only for thinking up all the stuff he thinks but also taking the time to write it down on these boards for the rest of us to poach, and lets not forget that he does this and then repeats it every couple weeks whenever someone new has issues:)

Latrecis, you sir are a saint (even if the church won't recognize it, we do!)
also NobodysHome and Tangent for putting up with my Shtick:)

You forgot Orthos. Vengeance will be his... once he chooses a new avatar, of course...

you know i just don't understand people that change their avatars all the time......


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Un-winnable - change his spell list around a bit and add:

Teleport trap to his entire demi-plane, anyone without the password gets teleported directly into the fire.

Start him like the old AP flying above the battle.

Quickened Time stop along with sphere as above - anyone outside the sphere have the minions bull rush the party into the sphere.

It'd be easy enough for him to have given his minions the ability to fly (besides the dragon).

Just having the teleport trap active gives him a huge advantage - he can dimension door around while the party (including monks etc.) can *not* - if they save they don't move - if they fail they get punted into the fire.

There are other things you could do - he's only a super genius that has been watching the players for a while now - I'd be surprised if he didn't use his wish to mimic spell immunity and make himself immune to the 3-4 most used offensive spells the players cast for example.

Paizo Employee

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I completely reworked this fight, but teleport trap was definitely part of it (because he'd been observing the party and one character was a travel cleric who did a ton of teleporting). That was a nasty surprise, even though nobody failed their saves.

There was also an archer, so he memorized quickened wind wall. Didn't help his minions much, but between that and quickened dimension door, could shut down the party's entire offense.

The more major change I made was putting runes in the ground around the runewell. Basically, each provided him a different defense in the style of prismatic sphere, but they could be sundered with dominant weapons or taken over if the players wanted to match wills with Karzoug.

The fight ended up taking around an hour and being very satisfying for all involved. But it also only vaguely resembled the fight in the book, so I have no idea how much that helps.

Cheers!
Landon


NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

Also huge, huge props go to Latrecis not only for thinking up all the stuff he thinks but also taking the time to write it down on these boards for the rest of us to poach, and lets not forget that he does this and then repeats it every couple weeks whenever someone new has issues:)

Latrecis, you sir are a saint (even if the church won't recognize it, we do!)
also NobodysHome and Tangent for putting up with my Shtick:)

You forgot Orthos. Vengeance will be his... once he chooses a new avatar, of course...

EDIT: The squirrel? Check the 10-Kuthona-4707 section. The squirrel might not be best...

good read, took me awhile to get time to read it as your journal was too big for my phone and with the demise of saturday cartoons on network TV the kids stream them on the computer, so first chance i got to read it:) fun stuff.

they're ambush predators, you gotta get creative with them, i once had one that was secretly the ruler of the town and used the gnome mayor as his literal puppet:)
i've been using Wolf's-in- Sheep's-Clothing for almost thirty years now:)

some people say you only get one shot with them, those people don't have 3 of them in a single area:)

also the cover of Misfit Monsters Redeemed is my all time favorite pathfinder cover behind Rasputin Must Die!


Ok, thanks for the input (but quickened time stop plus prismatic sphere? That's some SMT level stuff right there).

Another slightly unrelated question, but how dramatic is the fight usually? What I mean is, by this time has karzoug really built himself up against the PCs so that there's a lot of tension and personal reasons for winning, or does it tend to just be a sort of here's the final boss type thing?


This is a really interesting read.
I was reading the final encounter and thinking "man this will be so hard for the group" as I have very little experience with high level gameplay (this should hopefully be my groups first full campaign).

I really like the idea of giving him a mages disjunction to try and take out a dominant weapon though, I think I might try that one.


FanaticRat wrote:

Ok, thanks for the input (but quickened time stop plus prismatic sphere? That's some SMT level stuff right there).

Another slightly unrelated question, but how dramatic is the fight usually? What I mean is, by this time has karzoug really built himself up against the PCs so that there's a lot of tension and personal reasons for winning, or does it tend to just be a sort of here's the final boss type thing?

Well - by the time they get there - they should know the following:

* who he is
* what he represents
* that he is trapped but almost free
* that they are working against a clock of sorts
* that he was one of the most powerful beings on the planet prior to the age of darkness
* spent a *very long* adventure just making weapons to help them defeat him

All of that should really ratchet up the tension - if your players don't seem to be spending time looking for that you can push the info as the GM - Big K wasn't just some schmoe - he had armies of giants - unlimited wealth - and a nation at his whim.

Horizon Hunters

NobodysHome wrote:

Lamontius posted some great tactics in another thread: Use his first Quickened Time Stop to put the melee characters in a Prismatic Sphere, leaving the squishies to fight him and his minions without the assistance of their heavy damage-dealers. Even meaner is to do it a couple of times so he takes on one or two PCs at a time, while he's got all of his minions at his disposal. A Dimensional Lock is another must-have for him to keep the party from popping about.

The AE version doesn't have optimized spells, though. For example, he has neither Prismatic Sphere nor Dimension Lock on his spell list, and instead a huge number of his spells are from the Transmutation school, and therefore fundamentally useless in the fight.

I ran him as-written and he got nuked at the beginning of Round 3, which is why I think some shifting of his spell list is necessary.

How does Karzoug cast prismatic sphere on the melee characters? It's a 10-foot radius sphere centered on the caster (who can then move out of it.) He can't cast it on others.


Its quite simple
He casts time stop walks next to the pc's casts Prismatic sphere encompassing himself and the pc's . Then he walks away


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JohnHawkins wrote:

Its quite simple

He casts time stop walks next to the pc's casts Prismatic sphere encompassing himself and the pc's . Then he walks away

John has the right of it. And given a battle mat it's pretty darned easy to cut a party in half with one sphere, leaving two "squishies" outside the sphere to get eaten by Karzoug's minions, and two "tanks" inside twiddling their thumbs.

Once the squishies are dead, heal up, get in position, and use another Time Stop to drop the first sphere and put up a second one singling out one of the remaining melee characters.

If they're smart enough to grapple each other or some such, ah well, use the "Succubus in a grapple" rules...


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Yeah he's supposed to have access to any spell printed in the core book and more (ancient forgotten magic) at the GM's discretion, with the exception of illusion.

Honestly of all the casters in the AP he is the one I'd be most tempted to break out 3rd party spell lists (deep magic, 1001 spells, etc) and mess with his spell list a bit. If you plan to stop after his defeat - there really isn't any harm in tossing some oddball stuff into his book and it has the opportunity to give the players something a bit unexpected instead of what they *think* they know.


He also lacks access to Enchantment , but apart from that I agree great candidate to know any spell you went - particularly obscure transmutation magoc. Of course Transmutation magic is very unreliable against competent pc's in this adventure (Dominant weapons).
So far Prismatic spray is the BEST spell so far with prismatic sprays we have had 3 PC's sent to other planes (1 never to return), 1 Insane, 1 Dead from Poison , lots of elemental damage much better return than any other spell (all of this is of course due to bad dicerolling but still).
I have not used 3rd party spells but I have completely rewritten his spellbook and tactics . At the moment having fun with Karzoug images particularly combined with the elite of his minions

Grand Lodge

I was wondering how I am going to run it and surfing the boards a few months ago and I found a description of how Mark Seifter ran the encounter when he did Runelords. I don't know if it might end up being overboard but I am going to lean pretty heavily on his description when I run it myself.

Helpful suggestions at the very least.

Ask Mark Seifter All Your Questions Here


anyone else notice a striking resemblance between Karzoug and

:
Mr. Burns, both in art and temperament
:D
i'm sure its probably coincidental;D

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