Optimze a handicap


Advice


I have a player who has much higher system master then the rest of my players. He like to go all out his optimization but does not want to overshadow the rest of the party. His current character is a one armed evil dedicated healing cleric.

I would love to see builds that have major handicap in either concept (crossbow user) or psychological (will not use magic) or physical (blind) and yet are still fun to play and do not hold the party back.

Basic rules
Must be playable from level 1
Must be competitive by level 5
Must be superior to iconics by level 12
15 point buy
The concept has to impacted by handicap. If the character would suddenly be healed he should be better at what he does. Maybe not the your build in particular but the general concept should be easier without it.
Standard WBL with UC mods for crafters.
It does not have to be PFS legal but if you interpretation of the rules has massive table variation then it is a no go.

The point is have fun.

Shadow Lodge

Crossbow Wielder:
Human Bolt Ace
Str19
Dex18(Levels 8, 12, 16, and 20)
Con14
Int10
Wis14(+1@level4)
Cha7

Feats:
1:Precise Shot
1:Point-Blank Shot
3:Rapid Reload(Light Crossbow)
4:Rapidshot
5:Deadly Aim
7:Weapon Focus(Light Crossbow)
8:Improved Critical(Light Crossbow)
9:Clustered Shots
11:Signature Deed(Sharp Shoot)
12:Improved Precise Shot

At level 1, you are roughly on par with most archers, doing a flat d8 damage with a +5 attack. At level 5, you have a full attack of +6/+6(1d8+8/1d8+8) with Rapidshot and Deadly Aim on(assuming you have a Masterwork weapon), and you have a 19-20/x3 crit. At level 12, all of your attacks are at 17-20/x3, with an attack bonus of +16/+16/+11/+11(1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+13) going against Touch AC, and only applying DR once, assuming you still only have a Masterwork light crossbow. Not bad damage, especially for someone 80 feet away.

Grand Lodge

How about Rogue? That's a handicap in it's self.

Go for the Driver archetype(if not PFS). No multiclassing.

If you need another handicap(and you don't) then the focus must be the Hand Crossbow.


With the bolt ace I do not think that we can count the the crossbows as a handicap. When my player did that bolt ace was not available. Do it without bolt ace you are good.

Rogue is weak but quite easy to make into an effective character. Driver replaces the weakest ability of them all with something worse. Add in the handcrossbow and you any you have a handicap. Driver may or may not be enough to count on its own. If it replaced sneak attack then yeah.

I have seen enough rogues in play to know that they do just fine with a little support. If we take this to be for solo play then yeah the rogue is really a handicap. At least a fighter will kill things well and has HP.


Evilpaladin: why a str of 19?


If I wanted to flavor-wise play something with a handicap, I'd be an oracle, so that I actually get something for my shortcomings.

But then, to me, purposefully making my character weaker for no other reason than flavor is not fun.


Well, in this case it seems like the player is doing it willingly, so the table as a whole can have more fun. If he was being railroaded into it, helping boost the optimization of the whole table could let him stretch his cheese mind a bit.

I want to suggest a Monk with some kind of odd quirk like you'd only see in the strangest of kung-fu movies, but nothing is coming to mind just yet. I need to think on this though, clearly.


Kestral is right about when I use the handicap stuff. I do not even pick it for him. We talk and come up with it together. Once we have concept he can go where ever he wants inside the concept and be as cheesy as he likes.

If he does not have a handicap then I get characters that dominate that game and ruin fun. He wants to have fun at the table and that means he needs to be limited. He wants have fun character building. That means he has to be free to do anything. He will not take skill focus just to keep his character from breaking the game but he will if the imposed limit requires him to.

The only time he could not pull out a PC that could keep up was crossbow rogue only. We took off the crossbow part and he went archer. This almost went to far on the game. The sorc just cast Improved invis on him and things got horrible.


I know that blind really hurts but I would allow a spell like hold person to be cast as long as you had LoE and could pinpoint a square. You can no just guess.


Seriously? The party couldn't keep up with an archery rogue?

The problem isn't the player. It's the rest of the party. I mean, you have to be --really-- bad at your system mastery to not be able to keep up with an archery rogue, even if he's optimized out the wazoo.


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I first read this as "optimize a hubcap." Oh well...


thegreenteagamer wrote:

Seriously? The party couldn't keep up with an archery rogue?

The problem isn't the player. It's the rest of the party. I mean, you have to be --really-- bad at your system mastery to not be able to keep up with an archery rogue, even if he's optimized out the wazoo.

Which seems to be more or less what's going on.

But that's fine. If the dude eating the handicaps isn't complaining, is it really our place to complain for him?

Also: a character who refuses to use his/her hands in battle. Might have to also rule no Monk to make it interesting so he's not just roundhouse-kicking reality.


They are not bad at optimizing (just not super) at all. They just realized that improved invisibility really help the rogue alot. He was doing SA +3 str damage and dispel with each arrow.

The rest of the group was about the same.

He would not have been great on his own at all. That one spell really jumped him from ehh... to quite good.

When see invis was around he did other things.

Grand Lodge

If not for PFS, then a Snare Setter Rogue is the way to go.

It's Kobold only, but even if you bypass the handicap of being a Kobold, with Racial Heritage(Kobold), you will still be very weakened.


Yeah okay I will grant that one as a handicap. More then half your levels have to be in that. Go build it bbt.

edit: only two traps ever and one of them is lame? Uses per day. That is just straight horrible.

Grand Lodge

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I know crap when I see it.


Something along the lines of Zatoichi the blind swordsman comes to mind. A fighter (or samurai) with the right feats could do improved blind fighting and buy this off, but if's awfullly late game (can't complete the chain before level 15). You could do some sort of mental issue. A phobia: will save vs. <blank> or shaken for 1d4 rounds, feared on a crit failure.

Grand Lodge

Mathius wrote:

Yeah okay I will grant that one as a handicap. More then half your levels have to be in that. Go build it bbt.

edit: only two traps ever and one of them is lame? Uses per day. That is just straight horrible.

I thought the whole point was for the player to optimize it?

Did I miss something?


He will but I made this thread so that others could have the same kind of challenge that he does and post a workable build to the boards.

I would love to see how someone made a blind character effective. of one legged. or other much maligned concept.

For blind I think I would want to specialize in making the whole area dark and forcing others to have the same handicap I do.

The trapper is only good if he can have time to prep the battlefield in advance. Encourage the tank to bullrush. Kinda makes me made that not just anyone can make traps like this. The full round action as a set up might be fast but 10 min and craft roll should be able to do any of that. maybe 1 min. And why uses per day? ghhaa that archetype is might be worst for an already bad class.

Grand Lodge

Well, with the Snare Setter, nabbing Smoke Resistant trait, and using a number of Smoke Sticks, or Smoke Bombs, to frequent Sneak Attacks is an option.


hm that would actually be kinda cool. Not very party friendly though.

Grand Lodge

It is all about how you go about it.

Smoke the enemy, and attack from range, could work.

Being hidden, and letting the enemy take the traps.

If combined with a Diviner Wizard buddy, it could be a very viable combo.


See you are starting to bite into this challenge. Take even the worst stuff out there and it can still be playable.

Scarab Sages

If I wanted to have a challenge, I would play the following: NPC classes only. One level of Warrior for Armor/Weapon prof, followed by Adept for spellcasting and a familiar. I love the adept spell list for it's equal versatility with blasting, healing, and utility. The level five spells max stings a bit, but it has full caster level, and you can make some interesting build depending on what feats you take.


instead of a straight up handicap, why not optimize a thematic build?

talk with him about something he really likes, but it is not strong mechanically. let him optimize around that.

Shadow Lodge

Mathius wrote:
Evilpaladin: why a str of 19?

Typo, supposed to be a Strength of 9

Grand Lodge

shroudb wrote:

instead of a straight up handicap, why not optimize a thematic build?

talk with him about something he really likes, but it is not strong mechanically. let him optimize around that.

Are suggesting that great thematics, and flavor, only come from weaker builds?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
shroudb wrote:

instead of a straight up handicap, why not optimize a thematic build?

talk with him about something he really likes, but it is not strong mechanically. let him optimize around that.

Are suggesting that great thematics, and flavor, only come from weaker builds?

Where did you get this from?

He's is saying that you take a weaker concept, for example throwing builds, or a crossbow build before Bolt Ace became a thing.

Grand Lodge

Ah.

It seemed to suggest that only weak, or otherwise suboptimal builds, could be "thematic".


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ah.

It seemed to suggest that only weak, or otherwise suboptimal builds, could be "thematic".

nah i didn't mean that.

there are concepts though that some find awesome, only to find out that mechanically are subpar. They CAN work, and they CAN be optimized to perform good, but there will always be limitations.

take p.e. a card thrower with deadly dealer. It can work, will it compare to an archer? nah.


Thanks guys. Great stuff here for my player to try if the current build gets old. Themes that are weaker can work as well.

Any of you want to pick one an try a build.

I would love to see an effective blind character. I think a grappler might be best because no miss chance one you have them in you clutches.

Shadow Lodge

Well, not blind, but I've been working on optimizing a Clouded Vision oracle

Cloudy Level 1:
Nagaji Oracle
Str16
Dex14
Con14
Int6
Wis10
Cha14

Class Features:
Clouded Vision Curse(30ft vision only)
Revelations
*War Sight

Feats:
Combat Reflexes

Spells Known
0:Detect Magic
0:Create Water
0:Stabilize
0:Mending
1:Protection from Evil
1:Bless
1:Cure Light Wounds

Attacks:
Longspear +3(1d8+4)
*Bless +4(1d8+4)
Sling +2(1d4+3)

Traits:
Fate's Favored
Reactionary

HP=10
AC=17(10+1Natural+2Dex+6Armor[Four-Mirror])
Initiative+4
CMB+3
CMD15
Skills:
Spellcraft+2
Perception+5
Diplomacy(FCB)+5

Level 5:
Nagaji Oracle
Str16
Dex15
Con14
Int6
Wis8
Cha14

Class features:
Clouded Vision(60ft)
Revelations:
*War Sight
*Skill at Arms

Feats:
1:Combat Reflexes
3:Improved Initiative
5:Quick Draw

Spells Known
0:Detect Magic|-1:Cure Light Wounds---|-2:Cure Moderate Wounds
0:Create Water|-1:Enlarge Person------|-2:Fog Cloud
0:Stabilize---|-1:Protection from Evil|-2:Lesser Restoration
0:Mending-----|-1:Bless---------------|-2:Bull's Strength
0:Spark-------|-1:Divine Favor--------|
0:Guidance----|-1:Obscuring Mist------|

Attack Options
+1 Glaive +8(1d10+5)
*Enlarge Person +8(1d10+7)
*Divine Favor +10(1d10+7)
**Both +10(1d10+9)
Longbow +5(1d8)
Sling +5(1d4+3)

Traits:
Fate's Favored
Reactionary

Gear:
+1 O-Yoroi
+1 Heavy Shield
+1 Glaive
Longbow
Sling
Arrows(20)
Bullets(10)
Oracle's Kit
+1 Ring of Deflection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
174gp left

AC=27(10+2Natural+2Dex+9Armor+3Shield+1Deflection)
HP=38
Initiative+8(roll twice)
CMB+6
CMD19
Skills:
*Spellcraft+6
*Perception+9
*Diplomacy+9

Should have level 12 in a few hours.

The idea is that he can only see a very small part of a very large world, so he is paranoid and thus wants to be able to attack as much of it as he can see(Combat Reflexes, Enlarge Person, and Quick Draw), or blind everyone to level the field(hence the fog spells). Not technically blind, but clouded vision definitely hurts. Can't really start to optimize Clouded Vision itself until later when some real benefit comes in, so in the mean time this tries to simply work with and around it.

Shadow Lodge

Cloudy Level 12:
Nagaji Oracle 12
Str16
Dex16
Con14
Int6
Wis8
Cha19

Class Features:
Clouded Vision(60ft Darkvision, 30ft Blindsense)
Revelations:
*War Sight(Roll 3x)
*Skill at Arms
*Weapon Mastery(Glaive)
*Iron Skin

Feats:
1-Combat Reflexes
3-Improved Initiative
5-Quickdraw
7-Quicken Spell
9-Lunge
11-Divine Interference

Spells:
0:Detect Magic-----|-1:Cure Light Wounds---|-2:Cure Moderate Wounds
0:Create Water-----|-1:Enlarge Person------|-2:Fog Cloud
0:Stabilize--------|-1:Protection from Evil|-2:Lesser Restoration
0:Mending----------|-1:Bless---------------|-2:Bull's Strength
0:Spark------------|-1:Divine Favor--------|-2:Grace
0:Guidance---------|-1:Obscuring Mist------|-2:Shield of Fortification
0:Virtue-----------|-1:Blessed Fist--------|-2:Oracle's Burden
0:Read Magic-------|
0:Purify Food&Drink|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
3:Cure Serious Wounds------|4:Cure Critical Wounds|5:Mass Cure Light
3:Magic Vestiments---------|4:Wall of Fire--------|5:Righteous Might
3:Deeper Darkness----------|4:Greater Magic Weapon|5:Wall of Stone
3:Daylight-----------------|4:Blessing of Fervor--|5:Breath of Life
3:Magic Circle against Evil|4:Air Walk------------|
3:Prayer-------------------|
---------------------------
6:Mass Cure Moderate
6:Mass Bull's Strength
6:Heal

Attack Options(Reach between 10 and 25ft):
+3 Glaive +17/+12(1d10+7)
*Righteous Might +18/+13(2d8+10)
*Divine Favor +22/+17(1d10+11)
**Both +23/+18(1d10+15)
+1 Adaptive Longbow +13/+8(1d8+3)

Gear:
+1 Deathless Mirrored O-yoroi
+1 Glaive
+1 Adaptive Longbow
Arrows(20)
Oracle's Kit
Longbow
Sling
10 Bullets
+2 Ring of Deflection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+4 Headband of Alluring Charisma
+3 Cloak of Resistance
Extend Metamagic Rod
Handy Haversack
Boots of the Cat
Eyes of the Eagle
Circlet of Pursuasion
3rd level Runestone of Power
5 1st level Runestones of Power
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
1624 leftover gp.

AC=30(10+3natural+2deflection+2luck+2Dex+11Armor)
HP=87
CMD=29
CMB=+12
Init=+9(roll three times)

Each Morning, cast Extended Magic Vestiments through your 3rd level runestone of power(and metamagic rod), and cast extended greater magic weapon w/rod. Gives you +3 weapon and armor for 18 hours, should be plenty for the average adventuring day. I only showed 2 of the potential buffs in the attack options, but there are plenty more(including getting extra attacks and higher AC).

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