How are you ever supposed to make saving throws?


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VampByDay wrote:
I mean, my friend invented a build to have a sleep dc of 21 at level 1!what do you do when your DM pulls that on you?

Be an elf!

Seriously though, high level play is about more than 'kick in the door' mentality. If your level 13 fighter is serious about his fortitude saves, he had better be chugging an antitoxin every hour while dungeoneering. If you have an evil wizard that teleports a poisonous creature onto your boat, then you're still only a round away from that +5 to fortitude saves.

So yeah, you make saves by investing in them.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Cloak of resistance is the most common answer. That will usually add enough for a good save to be very favorable and a bad save at least even odds. Some classes like paladin laugh at most saves because they have two good ones and charisma mod on top of all that. Martial characters are notorious for bad for well, every save but not all of em are bad it. Barbs are very resistant to spells with superstition and monks are excellent t at every save.

Yes, others may struggle, but pallies and monks can easily and often make their saves (it can even annoy dms, I know I did).

If you want to pass forts early on and for a long time, fighter/barb con/str emphasis is great at low levels, later you have to do more to keep it high.


Can someone build me a quick item list for a level 13 character who is, "prepared for everything" the way people seem to insist players at that level must be?

Follow WBL please. (I'm not holding my breath, fyi. :P )

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@op this is an issue about your level of preparedness. Honestly, it's OK not to be prepared for everything. My blaster is level 7 or 8 and has a high save of +5 fort....no cloak of resistance and -absolutely no plan on acquiring one. Ever.

His will save is around +2 or +3. If he gets dominated, he is probably killing or severely hurting the party. I just role play him through, keep him at a safe distance (most of the time) and the good and bad times roll. Eventually, he should die. But we have two fairly competent melee characters and a modest level cleric. I rely on that for when I inevitably get into serious trouble.

@Neo
As for a list of 'always prepared' type items, offhand:
Clear spindle ioun stone
Wand/potion of protection from evil.
Scrolls/potions of neutralize poison.
Cloak of resistance
Antitoxin
Air crystals
Smoke pellets/flash powder
Alchemist fire/acid bottles
Sunrods
Flint/steel
Scrolls of lesser restoration/restoration
Wand of enlarge person/water breathing
Ring of feather fall
Elixer of stealth/climb/swim
Alchemical grease
Alchemical energy resist oils.

This is off the top of my head. It covers mind control, summoned creatures, poisons, negative levels, energy damage, climb, swim, stealth, grapples, falling damage, drowning, reach, fire, light, swarms, ranged touch options, provides concealment and increases saves. If I were trying I am sure that I could add half again as many items to the list, keep it at less than a fraction of the wbl and cover more angles, but those should be plenty enough. If you still succumb with these sorts of things available, well- so what? You gave it one reasonable heck of a try.

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Neo2151 wrote:

Can someone build me a quick item list for a level 13 character who is, "prepared for everything" the way people seem to insist players at that level must be?

Follow WBL please. (I'm not holding my breath, fyi. :P )

WBL for a level 13 character is 140,000 gp. So let's be INSANE and budget 6,000 gp for consumables. Crrrrazy. We're also going to assume that the "prepared for everything" fighter already has a handy haversack.

Alchemical Remedies: 1,150 gp:
alchemical grease (5)x3 = 15
alchemist's kindness (1)x5 = 5
antiplague (50)x2 = 100
antitoxin (50)x4 = 200
bladeguard (40)
fire ward gel (150)
frost ward gel (150)
meditation tea (30)
padzahr (80)
smelling salts (25)
soul stimulant (300)
troll oil (45)
vermin repellent (5)x2 = 10
wismuth salix (30)

Alchemical Tools: 350 gp:
alchemical glue (20)
alchemical glue accelerant (25)
alchemical solvent (20)
impact foam (25)x2 = 50
smokestick (20)x2 = 40
sunrod (2)x5 = 10
tindertwig (1)x10 = 10
water purification sponge (25)x2 = 50
weapon blanch (adamantine) 100
weapon blanch (cold iron) 20
weapon blanch (silver) 5

Alchemical Weapons: 500:
acid (10)x5 = 50
alchemist's fire (20)x5 = 100
alkili flask (15)x2 = 30
holy water (25)x2 = 50
liquid blade (40)
skyrocket firework (50)
tanglefoot bag (50)x3 = 150
thunderstone (30)

Oils, potions, and wands: 3,754 gp:
oil of infernal healing (50)
potion of air bubble in potion sponge (52)
potion of fly (750)
potion of gaseous form (750)
potion of lesser restoration (300)x2 = 600
potion of magic circle against evil (750)
potion of touch of the sea in potion sponge (52)
wand of cure light wounds (750)

Total spent: 5,754 gp

Add to that a cloak of resistance +4 and the handy haversack for 18,000 gp total, and you've spent 23,754 gp of your 140,000 gp. So you have a lot of cash left.

Dark Archive

Your missing oils of bless weapon x 2 (for creatures with regen/good) and oil of daylight (for deeper darkness)


Here's what I'm getting at, coming from the other side of the wealth issue:

•Ring of Prot +3: 18,000
•Cloak of Res +5: 25,000
•Amulet of Nat +3: 18,000
•Magic Armor +4, no extra enhancements: 16,000
(Possibly a shield for another 9-16k)
•Magic Weapon +3, no extra enhancements: 18,000
•Belt of Giant Str, or Equiv +4: 18,000

All of the above are assumed by design. If you don't have them, the CL numbers will be off. (Bonus amounts varying by character level, of course.)

That leaves 25,000 GP if you don't have to enchant a shield, and even less if you do.
25k is supposed to cover any and all:
•Other magic items or enhancements (likely more fun ones at that - Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Boots of Speed, Any other Ring, etc.).
•Consumables, magic or otherwise (Potions, Oils, Wands, etc.)
•Quality-of-life expenses (Raise Deads, Expensive Material Components, RP expenses, etc).

So while the provided lists of consumables I see above do, in fact, cover lots of contingencies, I can't help but notice that it's a whole lot of "one-ofs."
So when you blow your stash, you may have survived *that* fight. But you don't have any money to replace it. And if you do spend your loot replacing it, you won't have the money to save to upgrade your "necessary" magic items.

(The "big 6" is really the problem here, but it doesn't help the topic to ignore that it is, in fact, a problem.)


Honestly, I believe the game intends that you fail some saves, some of the time. As GMs it's almost kinda annoying to have your boss/fights be completely ineffectual against players. Also if your players get through the fight without any problems they only end up stockpiling easy cash/treasure.

Essentially stupidly high saves force the party to spend money/resources to reverse problems. It's just the nature of game balancing.


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Doomed Hero wrote:
Play a Dwarven Paladin with Steel Soul. Never fail a save.

Until you lose your powers because you stepped on a bug.


Mergy wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
I mean, my friend invented a build to have a sleep dc of 21 at level 1!what do you do when your DM pulls that on you?

Be an elf!

Seriously though, high level play is about more than 'kick in the door' mentality. If your level 13 fighter is serious about his fortitude saves, he had better be chugging an antitoxin every hour while dungeoneering. If you have an evil wizard that teleports a poisonous creature onto your boat, then you're still only a round away from that +5 to fortitude saves.

So yeah, you make saves by investing in them.

That doesn't strike you as being utterly ridiculous?

Dark Archive

WBL assumes that you use a certain percentage (15%) of your wealth each level in Consumables which are supposed to be replaced by loot, hence loot should always be greater than your expected WBL difference between the two levels (also taking into account the occasional raise dead).

Also a large number of the items on your list are unneeded for a level 13 PC, also all of them can be replaced by buff spells (short/med/long term durations).

In general all you really need at level 13 is a +1 weapon and +1 armor +2-4 stat booster everything else is optional depending on what you want to focus on.

Grand Lodge

There is always the Reincarnated Druid.

Just keep dying, and coming back.


Deadalready wrote:

Honestly, I believe the game intends that you fail some saves, some of the time. As GMs it's almost kinda annoying to have your boss/fights be completely ineffectual against players. Also if your players get through the fight without any problems they only end up stockpiling easy cash/treasure.

Essentially stupidly high saves force the party to spend money/resources to reverse problems. It's just the nature of game balancing.

Yes, this is the problem in a dm relying on save or suck for a boss to be effective.

We all know how the spells work, if the saves aren't passed the whole party can be juggle-ganked; but if a character is invincible and especially if they are used as a save-soak-sponge (I hereby coin that term), a boss can seem ridiculous and weak. Yes, this makes dms sad. See monks backed up by ranger archers and then charging fighters once the spells/abilities are wasted, barbs backed up by wizards where the big bad has the choice of wasting their spells and abilities on the close barb or the support. Ignoring either is pain for them and leads to their demise. This is of course why bosses need support, or you pull away members of the party with traps or room divides (I'll get to you later Clarise).

Paladin save-soak-sponges for life.


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The problem lies more with the players than with the monsters.

Simply put: players do TOO MUCH damage.

You can't raise bbeg AC through the roof because then 3/4 classes are left in the dust.
You can't put mega damage (player's like) because having a character die in 1full attack is the definition of unfun.
You can't constantly divide the party or such shenanigans, it gets repeative.

So you are left with save or suck to prolong a battle.

P.e. I put a swarm that did con damage in a stupidly hard location to avoid. The result was a member with 4con. So yeah, he had to rely to ranged attacks for the next battle. That gave the boss some breathing room so as to not die in the first/second round of combat.
With just one melee now, he couldn't bottleneck both nooks and boss, so the casters instead of unloading fully on the boss had to spend a bit of time on shutting down nooks or be overrun.
And the cleric had to unload on the poor fellow that was tanking the boss by himself, while keeping an eye on the 4con ally in case something ghlanced over him.
Overall it was a tough fight, the players won, despite some falling to negatives a few times, and having to rely on their healing wands to be able to just get out of the dungeon.
But that's what my players find fun.


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Zhayne wrote:
Mergy wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
I mean, my friend invented a build to have a sleep dc of 21 at level 1!what do you do when your DM pulls that on you?

Be an elf!

Seriously though, high level play is about more than 'kick in the door' mentality. If your level 13 fighter is serious about his fortitude saves, he had better be chugging an antitoxin every hour while dungeoneering. If you have an evil wizard that teleports a poisonous creature onto your boat, then you're still only a round away from that +5 to fortitude saves.

So yeah, you make saves by investing in them.

That doesn't strike you as being utterly ridiculous?

Drinking a cheap antitoxin before going into a dangerous dungeon? No, no more than casting buff spells or drinking potions or anything else sensible adventurers do.

Dark Archive

Zhayne wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Play a Dwarven Paladin with Steel Soul. Never fail a save.
Until you lose your powers because you stepped on a bug.

Dude, haven't you seen Torag's paladin code? Dwarf paladins are bad, bad little men.


You aren't. *Begin evil GM laugh

Dark Archive

Zhayne wrote:
Mergy wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
I mean, my friend invented a build to have a sleep dc of 21 at level 1!what do you do when your DM pulls that on you?

Be an elf!

Seriously though, high level play is about more than 'kick in the door' mentality. If your level 13 fighter is serious about his fortitude saves, he had better be chugging an antitoxin every hour while dungeoneering. If you have an evil wizard that teleports a poisonous creature onto your boat, then you're still only a round away from that +5 to fortitude saves.

So yeah, you make saves by investing in them.

That doesn't strike you as being utterly ridiculous?

I'm a bit confused by your question. Would you explain yourself?

Sovereign Court

Well that's the nature of SoD or SoS spells really. You pass or you fail. Spellcasters in particular will always target your lowest saves when they can...because that's the whole point of having will saves or fort saves spells (nobody cares about reflex saves spell...its just damage most of the time). At least, the spellcaster will try to estimate what is your lowest save from experience.

No matter how careful someone is...you can always fail and that's fine really. Pretty much the game is a rocket tag at higher levels and they expect you to spend some of your gold on healing bad status effects or Resurrection.


Neo2151 wrote:

Here's what I'm getting at, coming from the other side of the wealth issue:

•Ring of Prot +3: 18,000
•Cloak of Res +5: 25,000
•Amulet of Nat +3: 18,000
•Magic Armor +4, no extra enhancements: 16,000
(Possibly a shield for another 9-16k)
•Magic Weapon +3, no extra enhancements: 18,000
•Belt of Giant Str, or Equiv +4: 18,000

All of the above are assumed by design. If you don't have them, the CL numbers will be off. (Bonus amounts varying by character level, of course.)

Well, even there, you've out-optimized the OP, who had a cloak of resistance +2 at 13th level. With the 21,000 gp he didn't spend on that item alone, he can buy 420 vials of antitoxin.

On a broader note, you've basically built yourself a glass cannon there. While the "Big 6" are important, you don't necessarily need them that high at 13th level, and if you're complaining that spending that much money on the Big 6 reduces your character's flexibility, drop your cloak to +4, save 9000 gp, and tell the cleric to prepare guidance.

As far as the consumables are concerned, the published adventures assume that you're going to be blowing some of your money on consumables. If you play through an AP and don't ever use any consumables, you'll actually be over the WBL guidelines for that reason. (Well, until you need a status-removal spell.) But, of course, more to the point, status prevention is cheap compared to status removal. Antitoxin costs 50; a raise dead spell costs 5000.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
drop your cloak to +4, save 9000 gp, and tell the cleric to prepare guidance.

How does that work? Guidance lasts a minute and only works once.

Sure, it's nice when there's no time pressure, but are you implying it should be kept up on all party members all the time? That your cleric should be using standard actions to cast guidance basically all the time you're in an adventuring area? Certainly shouldn't be casting it combat most of the time and you don't want to be getting into a fight with it being about to expire, so just keep cycling it through the party members?

RAW, it works, as long as you don't need those standard actions for anything, but do people really do that?


thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
drop your cloak to +4, save 9000 gp, and tell the cleric to prepare guidance.

How does that work? Guidance lasts a minute and only works once.

Sure, it's nice when there's no time pressure, but are you implying it should be kept up on all party members all the time?

If you're in combat, presumably the cleric has more effective combat buffs that he's using. If you're not in combat, asking the cleric to give you his blessing just before you attempt some potentially dangerous task isn't unreasonable.

The real takeaway is to be active instead of reactive. Surprise (and lack of preparation) is what kills you. If you kick in the door without any idea of what's behind it and you didn't ask the cleric for a standard-action buff, you're asking for trouble.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
drop your cloak to +4, save 9000 gp, and tell the cleric to prepare guidance.

How does that work? Guidance lasts a minute and only works once.

Sure, it's nice when there's no time pressure, but are you implying it should be kept up on all party members all the time?

If you're in combat, presumably the cleric has more effective combat buffs that he's using. If you're not in combat, asking the cleric to give you his blessing just before you attempt some potentially dangerous task isn't unreasonable.

The real takeaway is to be active instead of reactive. Surprise (and lack of preparation) is what kills you. If you kick in the door without any idea of what's behind it and you didn't ask the cleric for a standard-action buff, you're asking for trouble.

Ok. It just sounded like you expected it to be an always up or nearly always up replacement for the extra plus on the cloak.

While I've always seen it used more as "If you're not in combat and want a blessing for something specific." Maybe the cleric dropping it on himself at low levels before an expected fight.


shroudb wrote:

The problem lies more with the players than with the monsters.

Simply put: players do TOO MUCH damage.

You can't raise bbeg AC through the roof because then 3/4 classes are left in the dust.
You can't put mega damage (player's like) because having a character die in 1full attack is the definition of unfun.
You can't constantly divide the party or such shenanigans, it gets repeative.

So you are left with save or suck to prolong a battle.

Actually, the problem is with dms, who thing that the idea of a bbeq being the primary focus of an encounter works in this game. Single enemy encounters are stupid. There I said it. They dont work. Have a trio of bad guys equally powerful. Then all the things you mention arent an issue. Because the players have to divide their attention amongst them. And if the barbarian takes out one with his massive attacks, well, there are 2 more. Encounter continues and is still interesting and difficult.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

Well, even there, you've out-optimized the OP, who had a cloak of resistance +2 at 13th level. With the 21,000 gp he didn't spend on that item alone, he can buy 420 vials of antitoxin.

On a broader note, you've basically built yourself a glass cannon there. While the "Big 6" are important, you don't necessarily need them that high at 13th level, and if you're complaining that spending that much money on the Big 6 reduces your character's flexibility, drop your cloak to +4, save 9000 gp, and tell the cleric to prepare guidance.

As far as the consumables are concerned, the published adventures assume that you're going to be blowing some of your money on consumables. If you play through an AP and don't ever use any consumables, you'll actually be over the WBL guidelines for that reason. (Well, until you need a status-removal spell.) But, of course, more to the point, status prevention is cheap compared to status removal. Antitoxin costs 50; a raise dead spell costs 5000.

Interesting. I was holding back a lil - Some of those +3s can be +4s without going over WBL guidelines. ;)

But mostly, what you're describing is using the Cleric as a buff-bot. It's kinda like the bad old days of using the Cleric as a heal-bot, except with buffs instead of heals.

And moreso, most Cleric buffs that you'd expect to replace enhancements are both boring and awfully inefficient until high levels anyway. For example:
Magic Weapon is an awful spell, save for low/no magic games. It only lasts one combat, only affects one weapon of one party member, and is very quickly made obsolete once people start getting loot.
The greater version is only slightly better with a reasonable duration, but you're still using a 4th level slot to give one weapon of one party member a paltry bonus (that doesn't even count for overcoming DR). [If you're doubting how bad GMW is, just consider that an arcane caster can do it with a lower spell slot, and they almost never do because there are so many better options to fill that 3rd level slot with.]
Ditto the armor variant. Ditto save buff spells. Etc.

Divine casters should be dropping Protection spells, Summoning extraplanar allies, using *good* buffs like Heroism, Prayer, or Divine Power, etc.
However, if you're using your casters to make up for your lack of personal investment, well, let's just say I don't know many people who enjoy playing that caster. ;)

Scarab Sages

Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot. The campaign DIDN'T START at 13th level. We had spent levels 10-13 in a dungeon where we were attacked almost every night so our party enchanter didn't have the time or resources to make ANYTHING and the GM randomly rolled for all the loot. Even when we did get back to civilization we were on the run from a frame job and we didn't have the time to find 'ye olde magic shop,' and, oh yeah, the GM had straight up murdered our rouge, so no black market connections. It's not like I DIDN'T want a better cloak, IT WAS THE BEST I COULD GET MY HANDS ON. Then he straight up murdered our druid and we had to spend a bunch of party resources paying to reincarnate him from a witch in a pirate town. Oh, and no, she wasn't an enchanter (or even an alchemist, she was a magic tatooer) so we weren't able to buy anything from her. It was a small miracle she bought all the excess loot we didn't, or couldn't, use.

We didn't live in a JRPG where we could just walk into a magic shop and pick up the newest items we wanted.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot.

I don't think you're an idiot. I think you just have differing expectations and are extrapolating from personal experience to overall experience, which is the mistake of generalizing from the specific.


Neo2151 wrote:

But mostly, what you're describing is using the Cleric as a buff-bot.

Yes. If you have a better use for level 0 cleric spells than buffing, I'd rather like to hear them.


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VampByDay wrote:


We didn't live in a JRPG where we could just walk into a magic shop and pick up the newest items we wanted.

We've already established that your GM is a dick who has no interest in making your game fun.

Unfortunately the JRPG magic shop is baked into the Pathfinder system. He's also throwing massively over-CR challenges at you.

But if your Game Master decides to break the game, it's not Paizo's fault.


I'm kind of boggled at the thought that a character who makes a save on a 6 or higher is thought of by his player as being bad at making saving throws.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Actually, the problem is that you asked us what you could do, and we responded.

And now you're complaining because we assumed a general setting, instead of this buying-restricted setting you have.

So OF COURSE people thought you were a little crazy for having a +2 cloak at level 13, and called you on it.

You didn't give anyone any hints that you are literally unable to do exactly what you are asking us to help you do. We just thought you were making weird loot decisions.

So, you're complaining about us when it's you who is to blame. We acted on a standard, and you're raging about the specialized.
===========
To that list of consumables, something that allows ghost touch.

==Aelryinth


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VampByDay wrote:
Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot.

Whoa, dude. Nobody called you an idiot. And I'm sure you didn't cast detect thoughts to know if anyone was thinking of you as an idiot, so please calm down. We're all just trying to help you in the best way we know how.

Grand Lodge

thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
drop your cloak to +4, save 9000 gp, and tell the cleric to prepare guidance.

How does that work? Guidance lasts a minute and only works once.

Sure, it's nice when there's no time pressure, but are you implying it should be kept up on all party members all the time? That your cleric should be using standard actions to cast guidance basically all the time you're in an adventuring area? Certainly shouldn't be casting it combat most of the time and you don't want to be getting into a fight with it being about to expire, so just keep cycling it through the party members?

RAW, it works, as long as you don't need those standard actions for anything, but do people really do that?

As our party rogue, blaster, and mini healer/buffer, I cast Guidance before and after every door listened to, every trap searched for, and each disarmed. I do it before every stealth check and prior to and immediately followed up after making spell craft, appraise, or most any other check possible when not in combat or pressed for time or unable to otherwise intentionally prepare to use a skill or ability. In combat, when I wish to conserve spells, I spend my standard action casting guidance on our least likely to hit martial characters.

It works extremely well and I have virtually a +1 to almost every skill check and many saving throws. This habit has now been adopted, naturally, by all of my other characters with the ability to cast the spell. It makes a difference over time. Trust the Mayhem.


VampByDay wrote:
Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot.

This is the last time I respond to the "poor-me" leader sentence.

Quote:
The campaign DIDN'T START at 13th level.

The opponents DCs also didn't start at the mid 20s.

Quote:
We had spent levels 10-13 in a dungeon where we were attacked almost every night so our party enchanter didn't have the time or resources to make ANYTHING and the GM randomly rolled for all the loot. Even when we did get back to civilization we were on the run from a frame job and we didn't have the time to find 'ye olde magic shop,' and, oh yeah, the GM had straight up murdered our rouge, so no black market connections.

Okay, so this again comes back to your problem not being what you think it is. It's NOT the game. Still. It's your DM putting you through a multi-level pressure-cooker that denied you access to many of the features of the game.

Quote:
It's not like I DIDN'T want a better cloak, IT WAS THE BEST I COULD GET MY HANDS ON.

Again, this reinforces that the issue you're attributing to the game is nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with your DM.

Quote:
Then he straight up murdered our druid and we had to spend a bunch of party resources paying to reincarnate him from a witch in a pirate town. Oh, and no, she wasn't an enchanter (or even an alchemist, she was a magic tatooer) so we weren't able to buy anything from her. It was a small miracle she bought all the excess loot we didn't, or couldn't, use.

Have you considered that maybe - just maybe - you've got a problem with your DM? I might've mentioned it before, but it might have got lost amidst all of the accusations of idiocy I was making. <Grin>

Quote:
We didn't live in a JRPG where we could just walk into a magic shop and pick up the newest items we wanted.

So... one has to wonder... how is anyone ever supposed to make their saving throws in this game? I mean, you were denied access to the things you should have had for four levels and STILL had 80% chances to make your saves. Huh.

Time to point your frustration towards where it's due: your DM.

Maybe pick up an AP and run it for your group, so you can see how this is supposed to work?


Ravingdork wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot.
Whoa, dude. Nobody called you an idiot. And I'm sure you didn't cast detect thoughts to know if anyone was thinking of you as an idiot, so please calm down. We're all just trying to help you in the best way we know how.

RD, you're scaring me. That's twice in two days I've felt compelled to favorite one of your posts.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:

Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot. The campaign DIDN'T START at 13th level. We had spent levels 10-13 in a dungeon where we were attacked almost every night so our party enchanter didn't have the time or resources to make ANYTHING and the GM randomly rolled for all the loot. Even when we did get back to civilization we were on the run from a frame job and we didn't have the time to find 'ye olde magic shop,' and, oh yeah, the GM had straight up murdered our rouge, so no black market connections. It's not like I DIDN'T want a better cloak, IT WAS THE BEST I COULD GET MY HANDS ON. Then he straight up murdered our druid and we had to spend a bunch of party resources paying to reincarnate him from a witch in a pirate town. Oh, and no, she wasn't an enchanter (or even an alchemist, she was a magic tatooer) so we weren't able to buy anything from her. It was a small miracle she bought all the excess loot we didn't, or couldn't, use.

We didn't live in a JRPG where we could just walk into a magic shop and pick up the newest items we wanted.

I've been in one of those random magic items campaigns where nothing was available except random treasure. Oh goody! We found Platemail of the Deep. In the desert. Where no one would buy it. And we had to haul it without portable holes or anything. Sometimes even finding donkeys was tough if the GM was in a capricious mood.

My best advice to you? Don't sweat what happened here. Instead... take all your unhappiness and use it to inspire a much better campaign, which you GM. You've learned first hand how much this all sucked. So make it better for your friends with your own, much better balanced, game.

Hmm

Dark Archive

VampByDay wrote:

Okay, seriously, I am sick of everyone thinking I'm an idiot. The campaign DIDN'T START at 13th level. We had spent levels 10-13 in a dungeon where we were attacked almost every night so our party enchanter didn't have the time or resources to make ANYTHING and the GM randomly rolled for all the loot. Even when we did get back to civilization we were on the run from a frame job and we didn't have the time to find 'ye olde magic shop,' and, oh yeah, the GM had straight up murdered our rouge, so no black market connections. It's not like I DIDN'T want a better cloak, IT WAS THE BEST I COULD GET MY HANDS ON. Then he straight up murdered our druid and we had to spend a bunch of party resources paying to reincarnate him from a witch in a pirate town. Oh, and no, she wasn't an enchanter (or even an alchemist, she was a magic tatooer) so we weren't able to buy anything from her. It was a small miracle she bought all the excess loot we didn't, or couldn't, use.

We didn't live in a JRPG where we could just walk into a magic shop and pick up the newest items we wanted.

Talk to the rest of your group, if they're as upset and frustrated with the game as you are then all sit down with your GM and explain to them that the way they are running the game (which is outside of the normal expectations for most people) isn't fun for any of you players. It's clearly upsetting you and making you angry, not what a for fun hobby should do, so talk about it.

Maybe your GM thinks you are all enjoying this and like the challenge, maybe they're just a dick on a power trip, but until you sit down, explain how you feel and talk it out it's hard to know. It could all be a huge misunderstanding and the GM will be only too happy to change, or they could just be having fun at your expense in which case it's likely time to find a new GM, but talking to them will resolve this for you one way or another, I promise.


Last pf game, my monk was on spell soak duty. Thrown out there to "catch" any saves thrown his way. If he could, rush the casters; if he was hurt, retreat and support; if he was rushed, lead them away. Luckily, most saves were will or fort (my dex was a bit rubbish). I even took great fort.

I knew that great base speed was good for something. For soaking saves, monks are brilliant - and you have the mobility a paladin can't really match without investment.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I'm kind of boggled at the thought that a character who makes a save on a 6 or higher is thought of by his player as being bad at making saving throws.

Eh, that's still a 25% chance of failing.

If an architect has 25% of their buildings fall down....


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Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I'm kind of boggled at the thought that a character who makes a save on a 6 or higher is thought of by his player as being bad at making saving throws.

Eh, that's still a 25% chance of failing.

If an architect has 25% of their buildings fall down....

False analogy is false.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I'm kind of boggled at the thought that a character who makes a save on a 6 or higher is thought of by his player as being bad at making saving throws.

Eh, that's still a 25% chance of failing.

If an architect has 25% of their buildings fall down....

The expectation of a building is that it will never fall down under normal circumstances.

The expectation of a CR-appropriate encounter is that you will fail some of your saving throws.

If your saving throws are so good compared to the foes you're facing that you only fail on a 1, then either the GM is sending the wrong foes at you, or you've invested so much into defense that your character is probably useless at anything else.

You should expect to fail saving throws sometimes, just as you should expect for the enemies to beat your AC sometimes and hit you for damage.


Deadalready wrote:
Honestly, I believe the game intends that you fail some saves, some of the time.

I believe Deadlalready got it right here....If the players always get their save, it becomes a damage dealing contest that quickly becomes boring and you are less challenged as a player.

We are currently using the Hero Points system in our current game and we will never do it again. The potential to add +4 or +8 to a save (combined to the fact that we have a bard in our party) translates in us never failing a save (or almost). I must admit that it takes away some of the challenges in the game...

Pathfinder has done a good job at reducing high level Save-or-die spells to damaging spells. For example, Finger of death or Slay living don't kill outright the character (like in 3.5) if he fails his saving throw...so there still might be some debilitating spell out there, but it forces the party to act and plan together and not just rush ahead without thinking.

If you were guaranteed to save everytime, might as well stop rolling dice...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cuttler wrote:
Deadalready wrote:
Honestly, I believe the game intends that you fail some saves, some of the time.

I believe Deadlalready got it right here....If the players always get their save, it becomes a damage dealing contest that quickly becomes boring and you are less challenged as a player.

We are currently using the Hero Points system in our current game and we will never do it again. The potential to add +4 or +8 to a save (combined to the fact that we have a bard in our party) translates in us never failing a save (or almost). I must admit that it takes away some of the challenges in the game...

What? Our group uses 25-point buy AND the hero point system in our games and not only do the player characters fail their saves, they frequently DIE.

And that's just through the standard, unmodified adventure paths.

Dark Archive

Cuttler wrote:
Deadalready wrote:
Honestly, I believe the game intends that you fail some saves, some of the time.

I believe Deadlalready got it right here....If the players always get their save, it becomes a damage dealing contest that quickly becomes boring and you are less challenged as a player.

We are currently using the Hero Points system in our current game and we will never do it again. The potential to add +4 or +8 to a save (combined to the fact that we have a bard in our party) translates in us never failing a save (or almost). I must admit that it takes away some of the challenges in the game...

Pathfinder has done a good job at reducing high level Save-or-die spells to damaging spells. For example, Finger of death or Slay living don't kill outright the character (like in 3.5) if he fails his saving throw...so there still might be some debilitating spell out there, but it forces the party to act and plan together and not just rush ahead without thinking.

If you were guaranteed to save everytime, might as well stop rolling dice...

We're using hero points, but we're also giving some to important enemies. When a foe can take a reroll or make a standard action off-turn, it means that we can use our hero points to make heroic actions (or to make that one crucial saving throw), but our boss encounters are tougher than normal.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I'm kind of boggled at the thought that a character who makes a save on a 6 or higher is thought of by his player as being bad at making saving throws.

It depends on how often you are required to roll that save. Once or twice an encounter and you are golden. Ten times an encounter and you are almost guaranteed to fail. Somehow I get the impression that the OP is facing the 'roll until you fail' syndrome which makes his 30% failure rate seem much higher.


Ravingdork wrote:

Cuttler wrote:

Deadalready wrote:

Honestly, I believe the game intends that you fail some saves, some of the time.

I believe Deadlalready got it right here....If the players always get their save, it becomes a damage dealing contest that quickly becomes boring and you are less challenged as a player.

We are currently using the Hero Points system in our current game and we will never do it again. The potential to add +4 or +8 to a save (combined to the fact that we have a bard in our party) translates in us never failing a save (or almost). I must admit that it takes away some of the challenges in the game...

What? Our group uses 25-point buy AND the hero point system in our games and not only do the player characters fail their saves, they frequently DIE.

And that's just through the standard, unmodified adventure paths.

ya, well forgot to add that we have 1 mythic level, that was also enough for the GM to ban those level in his future game. With this mythic level, the bard can now give +3 to all saving throws. Combined with +2 of good hope that is always (almost) in effect), that is another +5 to all saves for everyone...

but still, we are playing the RotRL and shattered stat AP (combined) and we are currently level 15 (about to finish the last modules of each AP).

The bard has 15/18/16 for his save (includes a +5 cloak of resistance)and the cleric has 19/9/22 (also has +5 cloak). Other PCs similar.

So combined with the bard (+5) and the Hero point that allows +8 before roll, +4 after roll or simply reroll , than it's hard to miss. Even if not mythic, the +2 from good hope is good enough, and that is not counting other effects such as prayer, etc.

And if somebody fails that, the bard can also use saving finale to have one Pc reroll his save...So might have missed a few save, but very few lately and never for something deadly.


Quite frankly, if I roll a 5 or less, I expect to fail the vast majority of the time. Certain skill checks are really going to be about the only exception. Sure, there will be mook fights wherein you'll almost always succeed at what you are doing, but for the most part, if you're rolling a 5, you are going to fail. The bottom line is that sometimes you just flat out fail.

In my current game, there was a bit of a running joke for a while with my monk because he was always failing his saves Fort, Reflex, Will, didn't matter. Finally, the GM said "I thought monks were supposed to have good saves?" To which I replied, "Well, it doesn't really matter when I am essentially rolling a d4 :P" Sure it sucks at the time when you fail the save, but by the same token, the risk of failure is what makes the game fun. If I wanted an experience where the heroes always succeeded and success was a forgone conclusion, I'd just read a book or watch a movie.

Now that said, with respect to the OP, I do think he is blowing it a bit out of proportion if he is upset that he still needs a 6 to make his best save. That said, it would also be interesting to hear the GM's side of the tale. From what we have heard, the GM appears to be way out of bounds; however, given the OP's response to needing a 6 and some of his other responses here, I'm willing to bet the GM isn't necessarily as bad as he is being made out to be. In particular, I find it unlikely that the GM just said "Oh by the way Ted, your character was murdered last night."

Note, this doesn't mean that the GM is doing a good job, just that it would be interesting to hear his side of it as well. Odds are that there are some issues with wbl, CRs, loot drops, down time, etc. However, its also likely that there have been opportunities that may have been passed up by the players (whether in terms of feat selections, spell selection, etc.)

Even looking at the CR's, for a boss fight, the CRs listed are not too out of whack, though as others have said, boss fights tend to work a lot better when they are done with numbers (i.e. support for the BBEG) rather than just one really big bad beastie. Unfortunately, this is something that often gets missed in GM Guides and the like (the official published ones) and frequently requires experience to learn. When you start getting Save or Suck/Die abilities thrown on top of a single big bad beastie, the problem only becomes worse.

Suthain has it right though. The OP needs to first talk to the rest of the group and see if they are feeling the same way. If they are, the group then needs to talk to the GM, politely. Often times, it can be easy to miss on the part of the GM because when running the game you are wearing so many different hats that the reactions of the players (not the characters) gets lost in the shuffle. Sometimes a simple little "Hey Mr. GM, that fight with the Dragon last time was pretty cool, I mean it was a totally bad arsed dragon! However, I was getting pretty discouraged at not being able to really do anything to it, so I started taking a look at my character sheet afterward. It seems that my character wealth is actually about 50,000 gold pieces behind where the book expects us to be. I was just curious if you knew that, and if you had taken that into account?"

Being polite and honest will go a long way. As I said, its entirely possible the GM doesn't even realize how much, or little, treasure the party has. If he has simply lost track, odds are that he will make adjustments accordingly (either in the form of Ye Olde Magic Shoppe or toned down encounters). Or, he may go the route of my current GM. She has limited the items that are available to us (through a combination of lack of access to shops, random item lists at the shops, and running published mods). Sometimes we have gone a couple levels without really being able to spend any of the wealth we've gained. However, she also has provided a relatively cheap (and quick) means of resurrection through a MacGuffin. Death still hurts when it happens, but not nearly as much as it would otherwise, and as such it has lessened the problem of not being able to order our magical gear from a catalog.

Finally, I will say that while it is not for everyone, sometimes having more randomized gear available can be fun too. We've learned to find creative uses for some of our items, or to take our characters in different directions. In some cases this has lead to some great roleplaying opportunities as well.


VampByDay wrote:


GM was a DICK. Straight up murdered our rogue because "Rogues are underpowered and no one should play them." She never got a chance to do ANYTHING in that campaign.

Actually, a well played rogue can be pretty powerful. But, imho,she shouldn't have been a level 13 rogue. After level 10, in my experience, it's much better to prestige a rogue into something like the Shadowdancer. A level 4 shadowdancer is nifty because they make that shadow jump at 40 feet. Give them a few potions of invisibility (or better yet, cast greater invisibility on them) and they are death on two feet.

At level 13 she would have been Rogue 10/ Shadowdancer 3, which means she still would have had the hide in plain sight and she would have had her shadow companion and several other things that I can't recall right off-hand.

I prestiged my rogue after level 7, so at 13 I would have been a level 7 rogue/ level 6 Shadowdancer. That meant I was putting off the Greater Evasion until level 17, but the benefits she had from shadowdancer felt worth it to me.

Dark Archive

@Cuttler it is not the hero point system making your game too easy. Despite never having used it, I can say it with a fair amount of confidence. It's the mythic content. Having recently played in a scenario that utilized it, I learned first hand the sheer power of mythic. It's fun. Fun as all heck- once or twice, and I had a blast. However, I would decline to play mythic for more than a couple of sessions as it trivializes so many things. Keep the hero point system and try it out without mythic next time. From what I can see, the hero point system is a heavily diluted, more challenge appropriate and limited option for characters where the mythic system is just 'hey kids, go nuts'.

Very fun nuts. But still nuts.


totally agree with you Dark....we saw that with only one level of mythic. Not only is the bard much more powerful, but our cleric was given the Hierophant path with the recalled blessing. This is totally ridiculous. with 5 mythic points at fist tier, this give the character up to 5 free spells of highest power if he wants to. And as if that was not powerful enough, it comes with a persistent-like metamagic power included (roll twice for save)...

anyway, even without mythic, HP increases the power of the PC. The power to get extra actions, or reroll save , cheat death, etc is very powerful. What will differ I guess is how often the GM gives back HP...
But all this to say, it's our job as PC to improve our character as best we can, but if there is no chance to fail, might as well read a book as somebody said earlier...

As they say: winning without danger, we avoid any trouble...euh I meant we win without glory....

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