Yet another Zen Archer advice thread


Advice


Quote:

Level 6 Monk (Zen Archer) (Qinggong)

Race: Human
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 20 (22)
Chr 7

HP 57

Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +12

Feats: Toughness, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Point Blank Master, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Deadly Aim, Monkey Style

Skills: Acrobatics +21 (+35 to Jump), Climb +10, Perception +15, Sense Motive +10

Items of note: Cloak of Protection +1, Ring of Protection +1, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Wand of Mage Armor lvl 1, +1 Adaptive Greenwood Composite Longbow of +2 Str

Initiative +8

Ki Pool 9

AC 10 +7 (Monk) +1 (Deflection) +2 (Dex) With potential of +4 (Mage Armor) +3 (Barkskin)

Full attack with bow counting Deadly Aim but not PBS +10/+10/+5 1D8 +9 Also ignore partial cover or concealment so no more -4 for shooting past allies.

As many of you know taking 6 levels of Zen Archer gives you a boatload of archer feats and defenses and the damage is decent.

But the benefits quickly peter out after that and I think it is time to consider a level dip.

As I understand it the main options are the following.

Wildblooded Empyreal Sorcerer
Pros: Able to use arcane wands and scrolls including my Mage Armor wand.
Cons: no +1 BaB, No low level arcane spells I care about casting myself other then maybe Shield or protection from Evil.

Inquisitor 2 or more levels
Pros: Travel, Deception, Exploration, Restoration, or Tactics are all good domain choices for me. I actually have a slight shot at monster lore checks at +10 to the roll for 1 rank. +6 or better to Initiative. Target of Opportunity Feat if I take 3 levels. Access to Divine wands and scrolls
Cons: No BaB at first level. +10 to monster lore check isn't going to do much at level 7+. Low level Divine spells are less useful to me then Arcane. +14 to Initiative isn't as useful for non casters.

Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 levels
Pros: 2 free feats. Full BaB. Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling for +3 to hit and damage.
Con: No access to spell casting. I don't really need more feats other then Clustered Shots.

If I missed any good options or you have opinions on the options I listed please chime in.


there is always the sacred fist war priest, there is a synergy with a wisdom based monk, and i believe the sacred fist war priest levels count towards your monk level for flurry of blows

Gleep


Other then the extra attack at 8th level my flurry of blows is based off of my BaB so I don't really need more Monk levels.
Another dip option I just learned about is Bloodrager with Aberant Bloodline and taking the Aberrant Tumor feat. I wouldn't get access to Arcane items because my Chr is below 10 but I would get something that is effectively a level 1 Scorpion familiar, a BaB of +1, and +10 movement for those times when I need to move 60.
Honestly unless someone can offer my an attractive alternative it is a race between the huge bonus to attack and damage granted by Dueling Gloves vs the bump to Initiative and the domain from Inquisitor.


Turns out that maybe I would get wand access with Bloodrager. Still not very attractive since the rage only gives me +2 damage.

Silver Crusade

Is Human a necessity? If you need wands and such, go Half Elf with Arcane Training.


I'm currently 5th level. I'm pretty sure PFS won't allow me to retrain my race.

Silver Crusade

oh poo. thought we were starting from scratch. Then I'll vote for 3 levels of Inquisitor for reasons already stated.


Bigguyinblack wrote:


As many of you know taking 6 levels of Zen Archer gives you a boatload of archer feats and defenses and the damage is decent.
But the benefits quickly peter out after that and I think it is time to consider a level dip.

As I understand it the main options are the following.

Wildblooded Empyreal Sorcerer
Pros: Able to use arcane wands and scrolls including my Mage Armor wand.
Cons: no +1 BaB, No low level arcane spells I care about casting myself other then maybe Shield or protection from Evil.

Inquisitor 2 or more levels
Pros: Travel, Deception, Exploration, Restoration, or Tactics are all good domain choices for me. I actually have a slight shot at monster lore checks at +10 to the roll for 1 rank. +6 or better to Initiative. Target of Opportunity Feat if I take 3 levels. Access to Divine wands and scrolls
Cons: No BaB at first level. +10 to monster lore check isn't going to do much at level 7+. Low level Divine spells are less useful to me then Arcane. +14 to Initiative isn't as useful for non casters.

You would also be able to use scrolls of spells on these lists with an easy caster level check (1+caster level of the scroll). That will open up your flexibility a lot. (This wouldn't apply to Bloodrager, Ranger, or Paladin until level 4, though.)

On the Inquisitor, +10 to knowledge checks is really good, even at high levels. We have a seeker group where my cleric is the only knowledge monkey in the party, and she only has about +12-15 on all her knowledge checks at level 14. Seriously, it's better than not having a chance at making them at all, and there is often a dearth of knowledge skills in PFS.
To make her chances better, she casts extended Discovery Torch to kick this up another +2, grabbed a couple of cracked magenta prism ioun stones to get a +2 competence bonus to the ones she really uses, and then filled her haversack with Pathfinder Chronicles to get +2 circumstance bonus in 1d4 rounds (her wand of Kreighton's Perusal cuts this time down to a standard action).

You can be really effective with the bonus to initiative as a Zen Archer. Pick up some tanglefoot arrows, and entangle 4 targets before they can act: it sucks to be a spell caster when the Zen Archer goes first. If anyone in your party has the Scent ability, use some Pheromone Arrows to give them +2 attack and damage for then rest of the combat. Or use your massive mobility to get into a good sniper position and force the bad guys to split their focus on you and the other party members.

If you stick with Inquisitor instead of just dipping, you can add the Bane ability to your bow, which will pretty much turn you into an automatic-fire rocket launcher.

Silver Crusade

Worship Irori and take Deific Obedience for the +4 to all knowledge checks.


Some other thoughts:

You might consider going a 7th level of Zen Archer. That lets the Monk's Robe kick you up to the next break point for unarmed strike damage (2d6) and AC. Lead Blades would kick your unarmed strike damage to 3d6, which you could then transfer to your bow with a ki point.

Ranger makes a nice stack with Zen Archer. You're a wisdom-based caster with full BAB, and get a lot of skill points. Favored Enemy will up your damage, or you can go Freebooter to give the whole party an untyped +1 attack and damage against one creature at a time. There are some nice archetypes here, too, and Rangers have some of the best 1st-level utility spells. You won't get to use scrolls until level 4, but you can use wands at level 1. You also continue to get bonus feats without having to meet the prerequisites. You could continue Archery (or Crossbow) style if there are still some ranged feats you want, or you can pick a different combat style if you want to be more of a switch hitter.

If you switch to Weapon Master, you'll probably want to pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot. Since fighters never get the second shot on the iterative attack (like the Zen Archer does), Manyshot adds an extra arrow on a full attack without having to spend a ki point. Last time I ran the numbers on my Zen Archer, she actually did more damage with Rapid Shot/Manyshot that with flurry after she switched to a full BAB class.

There's also the Snap Shot line of feats. Some people love them, but I haven't picked them up on my Zen Archers yet, so I don't know. I think Improved Snap Shot is great, but meeting the pre-requisites can be tough in PFS, unless you continue into Seeker modules (past level 12).


I realize you made a character and can't make many if any changes but inquisitor is better on his own versus zen with inquisitor levels. And isn't it level 8 that you want to go to with zen so you get an extra attack because your treated as having ITWF? Now then ...

Cleric has value for same reasons as inquisitor.

Silver Crusade

Worship Erastil and take Deific Obedience for +4 Survival and entrance into Evangelist.


I forgot to list my traits. I have Wisdom in the Flesh (Acrobatics) and already worship Irori. And if I go Inquisitor I'll definitely take 3 ranks of K Religion and the Deific Obedience feat.

Looking at Irori none of his Domains or Subdomains are very useful for me. Restoration Subdomain is slightly useful out of combat.

Silver Crusade

Atone for your sins. Worship Erastil.


So I've done some reading after Gwen's great advice and Brad's tip about Deific Obedience. While becoming an Inquisitor of Irori would be in character I don't like his domain choices. I also now realize that the Wis bonus to monster lore is in addition to Int not in place of. Great for many players but my -2 Int makes it less attractive. None of the Ranger options appeal to me.
I plan to go Weapon Master for 3 levels then back to Zen Archer until retirement. It doesn't grant spell access but with high level characters often taking spellcaster dips at some point I'm sure I can find someone willing to use my wand of Mage Armor on me.

I do still need advice on what feats to take. I get 5 more feats by level 11 but I think I have most of the ones I need. Zen Archer 6/Fighter 1 the Fighter feat can be Clustered Shots since I don't have good answers to DR Aligned or Slashing yet. Hammer the Gap doesn't seem worth it since I won't get my extra attack until level 11. Dodge is underpowered at this point but can't hurt.

Are there any feats that let me add my Wis bonus to anything other then Monkey Style? With so many feats I can jump through a hoop or 2 to get it.


A couple of options for feats:
Consider beefing up your melee options (Power Attack, etc.) or your non-combat utility (Cosmopolitan gets you more class skills, boost your Diplomacy or Intimidate, Enforcer is a nice debuff, etc.)

You can go up the Shot on the Run tree (Dodge, Mobility). My Zen Archer went this route, just so she can do a standing 45-foot horizontal leap and fire at the top of the arc.

The Snap Shot feat tree can be fun, but you probably won't get to the Improved Snap Shot level before 12th level.

Extra ki is always helpful.

I don't see any other Wisdom-based feats that would be useful for you, sorry.


Improved Snap Shot is REALLY neat but you'll need to take a bunch of feats that are useless to you. Rapid Shot is useless with Flurry, and even Snap Shot isn't that great since you're a Monk and threaten 5' with your bare hands/feet.

You could check out Snake Style which will let you use a Sense Motive check for your AC vs 1 Attack.


I like to dip into Heretic Inquisitor so I can be a more shady monk, it also lets you add your Wisdom to some skills in addition to the other modifier. Really nice if you can take advantage of the stealth.


Bigguyinblack wrote:
Zen Archer 6/Fighter 1 the Fighter feat can be Clustered Shots since I don't have good answers to DR Aligned or Slashing yet.

Just a heads up, If you want your Fighter 1 feat to be Clustered Shots, you will need to retrain into it once your BAB is higher. At Monk 6/Fighter1 your BAB is going to be 5, and Clustered Shots requires BAB 6. You treat your BAB as higher for purpose of flurry but not for feat pre-requisites.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem retraining at level 8, or just picking that at level 8 and something else at level 7


Jayder22 wrote:
Bigguyinblack wrote:
Zen Archer 6/Fighter 1 the Fighter feat can be Clustered Shots since I don't have good answers to DR Aligned or Slashing yet.

Just a heads up, If you want your Fighter 1 feat to be Clustered Shots, you will need to retrain into it once your BAB is higher. At Monk 6/Fighter1 your BAB is going to be 5, and Clustered Shots requires BAB 6. You treat your BAB as higher for purpose of flurry but not for feat pre-requisites.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem retraining at level 8, or just picking that at level 8 and something else at level 7

Yes I plan to pick it up at 8th level. As for the mention of Snake Style I already have Monkey Style and don't want to take the feat that lets me use 2 styles. I'm actually contemplating Skill Focus Perception or Acrobatics at 7th level.

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