Goblin Squad Member
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So I wanted to know how long it would take to create a character fully maxed out in a single combat build. IE every skill that can effectively be slotted into a single role PvP build at once.
None of this data takes into account attribute requirements or any other prerequisits. This is purely the training time of each skill based off of Sspitfire's table.
All numbers listed are a measure of days required to build the needed experience.
Core Stats
Hitpoints: 91.3 Days
Power: 271.8 Days
Base Attack Bonus: 97.4 Days
Will Save: 68.4 Days
Reflex Save: 68.4 Days
Fortitude Save 68.4 Days
Recovery Bonus: 24.4 Days
Total: 690.1 Days
Major Build Stats
Class Feature: 182.5 Days*
Armor Feature: 88.8 Days
Attack Type Bonus 1: 45.6 Days
Attack Type Bonus 2: 45.6 Days
Armor Proficiency: 2.2 Days
*Weapon Specializations from the fighter class take 217.7 Days
Total: 364.7 Days
Reactives and Defensives
Defensive 1: 21.3 Days*
Defensive 2: 21.3 Days*
Defensive 3: 21.3 Days*
Reactive 1: 15.2 Days
Reactive 2: 15.2 Days
*Some Defensives only require 19.5 Days
Total: 94.3 Days
Weapons
Weapon 1: 2.2 Days
Primary 1: 15.2 Days
Primary 2: 15.2 Days
Primary 3: 15.2 Days
Secondary 1: 15.2 Days
Secondary 2: 15.2 Days
Secondary 3: 15.2 Days
Weapon 2: 2.2 Days
Primary 1: 15.2 Days
Primary 2: 15.2 Days
Primary 3: 15.2 Days
Secondary 1: 15.2 Days
Secondary 2: 15.2 Days
Secondary 3: 15.2 Days
Implement: 4.4 Days
Total: 189.2 Days
Utilities
Utility 1: 15.2 Days
Utility 2: 15.2 Days
Total: 30.4 Days
Universally Useful Skills for Combat Characters
Stealth: 183.3 Days
Perception: 183.3 Days
Total: 366.6 Days
Overall Total
1735.3 Days or 4.75 Years
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a sidenote I would be shocked if someone who took the nearly 5 years to max out a combat character did not find more build relevant training at the end of that time. Especially in the "Universally Useful Skills for Combat Characters" category. And it would be useful for any adventurer to have maxed gathering as well (3 years worth of training).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to mention the 10's of thousands of Mobs you will have to kill, across several weapon types, just to gain the Martial / Subterfuge achievements you will need.
Then there is the required Gathering / Refining / Crafting skills required to raise your attribute scores to unlock some of those Combat related feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question is how does the community feel about this? You can continually progress in the strength of a single build for nearly 5 years based on the skills announced so far.
Previously the number to fully max a single combat build had been estimated at 2.5 years.
This will make players getting in at the ground floor with a DT to do their crafting godlike if they stick with the game longterm, but might it create the feeling among newer players that they can never be as strong as us?
Also it will really push us to stay focused on single build and punish us for diversifying before we reach what may be an ultimately unreachable goal as more and more skills are added.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought it was 2.5 years to maxing out a Role - not maxing out every combat skill within one...
My bigger concern at this point is the mandatory cross-classing in order to advance your ability score points. This ignores it, but that will add a lot of XP and time to this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought it was 2.5 years to maxing out a Role - not maxing out every combat skill within one...
My bigger concern at this point is the mandatory cross-classing in order to advance your ability score points. This ignores it, but that will add a lot of XP and time to this.
I think one big thing that will partially alleviate this is skills. I imagine a lot of skills are going to get added to this game overtime that will be useful to you character, so rather than cross training or having to take crafting skills you might fight yourself picking up things like fly, ride, and disable device.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember something about the powergain of those last tiers of Skill being minimal too, so a flattening curve. That means a lot of people probably will stop short of maxing out skills anyway. Must be a min/maxers nightmare though.
Something to consider though: with that many skills useful to a single combat build, just how long will it take before we can get to a very useful but not "huge investment just to have the max" level in all of them?
If there are enough skills all useful to a single build we can have our characters fairly rapidly advancing in strength for a long time.
That's more a newb's nightmare than a min-maxers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It probably never will have much meaning to you. But when groups come in to try out the game five years down the road and they find numerous players with years worth of training into a single, powerful, PvP build and they see how long it will take them to get there, and how much further those ahead of them can advance in that time, it's going to get a bit despiriting.
I've met a lot of people who quit EVE for that very reason. That's why I liked the number 2.5 years to max a character if you focus on a single build. It's not going to have them feeling like we are impossibly ahead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point of the 2.5 years was to hit level 20, not to have anyone's version of the 'ideal' PvP build. And it does only take 2.5 years (approx)to level 1 role to 20, IF you only choose 2 weapons (1 for each swap) and ONLY base required skills. I have done the calcs.
Remember meaningful choices? If you want your 'ideal' PvP build, it is going to take you longer to achieve it. You will have to make meaningful choices (read:sacrifices).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point of the 2.5 years was to hit level 20, not to have anyone's version of the 'ideal' PvP build.
The point is if it takes 5 years to optimize your PvP build, or if you play 7 years and spend 5 of them optimizing a PvP build or if you play 5 years and spend 3 of them optimizing a PvP build you are investing A LOT of time into becoming very uber.
This is not a game where you can expedite your training. Your XP is forever limited by how many months you've been subbed. A new character will NEVER catch up to an older character in XP if that character retains a constant subscription.
The point of shortening the time you can invest into a single optimized build is that that means from a fresh start newb you can catch up to someone who has been playing the game for an indefinite period of time in terms of raw character power.
As an older player you can pursue opportunities to diversify your character making maintaining a subscription worthwhile after that initial 2.5 years.
With this system if I am 4.75 years ahead of you it will take 4.75 years for you to catch up to me in strength if no skills are added during that time that I can use to increase my strength.
It makes me a permanent badass as long as I maintain a sub and spend my XP wisely. It screws over every newb coming into the game who wants to be able to compete with me.
Believe me, I'm not going to hold myself back on seizing as much power as I can if the system stays this way, but I don't want to see a common complaint from people leaving PFO be "we can never catch up to older players like Andius no matter what we do." Especially when I have a free alt called a Destiny's Twin to scratch my diversity itch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think people have to seriously consider the fact that over the course of the next 5-10 years, GW may reduce the cost of Skills (or certain skills) so that people can catch up easier. And I do not see them re-imbursing XP over every Skill that got its XP-cost adjusted (down).
This may sound unthinkable, and it is certainly not something that GW would advertize now, but it is basically what is happening with the "resets of power" that happen with expansions in Themepark games too.
Call it XP-inflation. I could be wrong, and in that case, newbies will always envy older characters: not because they are so much more powerful *vertically*(in a single role) but because they are certainly more "powerful" horizontally: i.e. both Cleric, Fighter and 3 Crafting roles maxed out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they follow the EVE trend, anytime training is lost (such as the removal of learning skills) the XP is refunded. Any time XP is gained (Such as when they turned the destroyer and battlecruiser skills in 4 racial destroyer skills and 4 racial battlecruiser skills) you get the advancement for free. Such actions actually were a great boon to older characters who got to take advantage of even wider XP gaps and free partial respecs.
After all, it would be VERY bad policy to take away paid for training time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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tl;dr: System working as designed.
Your thread title SPECIFICALLY refers to "capstone", which is the old parlance for "Cap level" aka Level 20. So I am just pointing out the fact that that statement is FALSE and libellous. The devs estimate for reaching level 20 in 2.5 years is accurate.
As far as being uber compared to a new player, you won't ever be THAT much stronger than a new player. Hit Points and Power cap, attack feats, armour feats, and feature feats cap, armour and weapons themselves cap; the ONLY advantage you will have over a noob will be versatility. Yeah, you can gather AND adventure at the same time, and the noob cannot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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tl;dr: System working as designed.
Your thread title SPECIFICALLY refers to "capstone", which is the old parlance for "Cap level" aka Level 20. So I am just pointing out the fact that that statement is FALSE and libellous. The devs estimate for reaching level 20 in 2.5 years is accurate.
As far as being uber compared to a new player, you won't ever be THAT much stronger than a new player. Hit Points and Power cap, attack feats, armour feats, and feature feats cap, armour and weapons themselves cap; the ONLY advantage you will have over a noob will be versatility. Yeah, you can gather AND adventure at the same time, and the noob cannot.
I shouldn't have to explain to you there is a very wide gap between newb and veteran.
I can sneak up on the newb easier and, spot them far more easily if they are trying to sneak. From there I can use my enhanced power pool to deal damage with my enhanced damage attacks modified by my enhanced base attacks. When they respond they will fighting my far larger hit pool through my higher saves, higher defenses, and higher tier armor.
This crap all compounds on itself. Every factor to my advantage enhancing every other factor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, but shouldn't there be? What you are suggesting simply changes the problem from "boo hoo we can never be as uber as Andius" to "boo hoo I spent all this time training all these cool skills and can still be pwnd by some noob."
Choose your poison.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm far less sympathetic to the pleas of veterans who are angry they've spent 2.5 years building their character to optimal PvP strength who still can't win fights than the newbs who have to spend 4.75 years + skills added in that time fighting a deck stacked against them.
The system should cap our power at some point and 2.5 years or even 2 years seems like a good time to reach that cap if solely dedicated to any specific build.
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The whole point of the 2.5 years was to hit level 20, not to have anyone's version of the 'ideal' PvP build. And it does only take 2.5 years (approx)to level 1 role to 20, IF you only choose 2 weapons (1 for each swap) and ONLY base required skills. I have done the calcs.
Remember meaningful choices? If you want your 'ideal' PvP build, it is going to take you longer to achieve it. You will have to make meaningful choices (read:sacrifices).
Could you post your minimum build for us?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly don't think it would be too hard, or take too much time, to train the NECESSARY feats to get a new player ALMOST on par with a veteran. Focus on HP, Power, Armour/Weapon feats, and your feature. Would take maybe 8 months. (not too different from Eve)
Add in some friends or a good settlement/company who can provide you with some T3 weapons/armour.
Will you be AS good as the vet? No. Should you be able to be competitive with the help of your company/settlement? Yes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Expendables will take you Months to learn them all
Also, if you count in the fact that you need other skills to get you up enough to meet the Attribute requirements, you are looking at closer to 6 years.
Personally, all of this, is going to take way too damn long.
A cool $1K per character! Most marriages don't last 6 years , lmao. Mine sure didn't.
Yeah my vision for "level 20 in a role," be that commoner, fighter, wizard, aristocrat, etc, includes roughly what Andius has put above- only in that 2 to 2.5 year time frame. It is worth noting that only caster classes would really need Power 40, so that saves 200 days :/
When Monday comes around, I am sure Ryan or Stephen will share with us some on this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have posted my "Fighter to 20" build in my Dazyk's PFO Quick Reference Guide is the direct link for those who don't have it.
Heck, I even have feats and skills in there that are NOT required to advance the fighter role... and I still hit level 20 in 2.86 years.
I have posted my "Fighter to 20" build in my Dazyk's PFO Quick Reference Guide is the direct link for those who don't have it.
Heck, I even have feats and skills in there that are NOT required to advance the fighter role... and I still hit level 20 in 2.86 years.
Thanks Dazyk! You've sold me to your side :) Question: did you verify that you will have the requisite 24 con and 24 str for all of this?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I shouldn't have to explain to you there is a very wide gap between newb and veteran.
I can sneak up on the newb easier and, spot them far more easily if they are trying to sneak. From there I can use my enhanced power pool to deal damage with my enhanced damage attacks modified by my enhanced base attacks. When they respond they will fighting my far larger hit pool through my higher saves, higher defenses, and higher tier armor.
This crap all compounds on itself. Every factor to my advantage enhancing every other factor.
What Andius points out here is the rarely unspoken, often denied, obscured, and avoided truth.
You can not have a slight power curve when comparing a new character vs a veteran character ( with month's or year's worth of game play / xp backing the veteran up).
It is simple mathematics.
Just as I have argued that a Zerg of Newbs will win the day, if they care nothing of efficiency and only about winning.
It is simple mathematics.
Ryan can argue all he likes about how PFO will be different, but unless they have developed a new mathematical equation that defies all other understandings of ratios and differentials, he is just blowing smoke up your butts.
I believe the pitch that there will be a slight power curve was meant to get TT players to buy in. Very experienced MMO players understand that it just won't be the case, and for all of the reasons Andius cited.
I used to say in EvE, there is no substitute for being "Cap Stable". What this refers to is having all of the Core Skills maxed and being able to pilot any ship without having to concern yourself about maintaining Capacitor level. No newb could have that advantage. It literally took over a year to complete all skills to maximize one ship class (role).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point of the 2.5 years was to hit level 20, not to have anyone's version of the 'ideal' PvP build.The point is if it takes 5 years to optimize your PvP build, or if you play 7 years and spend 5 of them optimizing a PvP build or if you play 5 years and spend 3 of them optimizing a PvP build you are investing A LOT of time into becoming very uber.
Or... you could just play the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or... you could just play the game.The whole point of the 2.5 years was to hit level 20, not to have anyone's version of the 'ideal' PvP build.The point is if it takes 5 years to optimize your PvP build, or if you play 7 years and spend 5 of them optimizing a PvP build or if you play 5 years and spend 3 of them optimizing a PvP build you are investing A LOT of time into becoming very uber.
My game is PvP, and I'm going to optimize my character to play the game I want to play it. Given that the way I play the game will effect every other person who (willingly or unwillingly) serves as my content, I do not want to see a situation where where I (or anyone like me) can reach a level of power not attainable by a newb for almost 5 years. It's unfair to those players and will drive many of them away.
Yes GW. I'm asking you to nerf me for the good of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have posted my "Fighter to 20" build in my Dazyk's PFO Quick Reference Guide is the direct link for those who don't have it.
Heck, I even have feats and skills in there that are NOT required to advance the fighter role... and I still hit level 20 in 2.86 years.
You are not including the time it takes to grind the Martial and Subterfuge achievements needed to hit some of those levels.
There will be the inevitable "down time" in between hitting the next level and getting side tracked by having to fulfil those achievements or by having to actually perform tasks not related to character development.
Your calculations might be bare bones minimum, Andius' represent maximixed, so perhaps we are looking at about 3.5 years.
You are also not taking into account any expansions to the skill lists, nor the probability of the inclusion of prestige classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or... you could just play the game.The whole point of the 2.5 years was to hit level 20, not to have anyone's version of the 'ideal' PvP build.The point is if it takes 5 years to optimize your PvP build, or if you play 7 years and spend 5 of them optimizing a PvP build or if you play 5 years and spend 3 of them optimizing a PvP build you are investing A LOT of time into becoming very uber.
^This.
Yes GW. I'm asking you to nerf me for the good of the game.
How noble of you....
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Goblin Squad Member
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My game is PvP, and I'm going to optimize my character to play the game I want to play it.
So that is your meaningful choice and not the fault of the design or anyone else.
Given that the way I play the game will effect every other person who (willingly or unwillingly) serves as my content, I do not want to see a situation where where I (or anyone like me) can reach a level of power not attainable by a newb for almost 5 years.
Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. If it took you 5 years why shouldn't it take them 5 years?
Or are you really simply recommending that it shouldn't take you five years to achieve?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My game is PvP, and I'm going to optimize my character to play the game I want to play it.So that is your meaningful choice and not the fault of the design or anyone else.
But all will suffer the consequences. And if I don't make that choice I just hand over power to those willing to do so. That's the reason why I will always seize as much power as possible from the systems provided to me.
Given that the way I play the game will effect every other person who (willingly or unwillingly) serves as my content, I do not want to see a situation where where I (or anyone like me) can reach a level of power not attainable by a newb for almost 5 years.Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. If it took you 5 years why shouldn't it take them 5 years?
Or are you really simply recommending that it shouldn't take you five years to achieve?
I'm saying it shouldn't take 5 years to achieve. If you want to increase your power beyond a certain level it should take more than character XP. If I play this game 5 years I have 5 years to learn how to play my character efficiently. 5 years to learn to counter the abilities of other builds. 5 years to make connections and alliances.
I don't need 5 years of constantly growing stats to improve upon that. New players coming into the game should have a reasonable timeline in which they can become my statistical equal and if they can amass enough player skills, knowledge, and connections during those 2-2.5 years to beat me, then they should beat me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are not including the time it takes to grind the Martial and Subterfuge achievements needed to hit some of those levels.
There will be the inevitable "down time" in between hitting the next level and getting side tracked by having to fulfil those achievements or by having to actually perform tasks not related to character development.
Your calculations might be bare bones minimum, Andius' represent maximixed, so perhaps we are looking at about 3.5 years.
You are also not taking into account any expansions to the skill lists, nor the probability of the inclusion of prestige classes.
Since players don't have to spend xp until they are buying the skill, needing "down time" for gaining subterfuge and martial feats doesn't make any sense. The player just doesn't buy the feats until they have the achievements. They have 2.5 years to make those kills.
I'm not sure what prestige classes have to do with getting a fighter to level 20. I'd think that any points spent on a prestige class would be points diverted from the fighter class, not part of getting to capstone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have posted my "Fighter to 20" build in my Dazyk's PFO Quick Reference Guide is the direct link for those who don't have it.
Heck, I even have feats and skills in there that are NOT required to advance the fighter role... and I still hit level 20 in 2.86 years.
You are not including the time it takes to grind the Martial and Subterfuge achievements needed to hit some of those levels.
There will be the inevitable "down time" in between hitting the next level and getting side tracked by having to fulfil those achievements or by having to actually perform tasks not related to character development.
Your calculations might be bare bones minimum, Andius' represent maximixed, so perhaps we are looking at about 3.5 years.
You are also not taking into account any expansions to the skill lists, nor the probability of the inclusion of prestige classes.
Um... Where exactly are you seeing that Andius' calculation differs from mine in any way regarding achievements? I don't see any reference to achievements in andihs' breakdown...
Not to mention that the game is being designed to correlate acbievement gain with xp gain for the average player. Since Andius is reputed to be much better than average, achievements should not be an issue for him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since players don't have to spend xp until they are buying the skill, needing "down time" for gaining subterfuge and martial feats doesn't make any sense. The player just doesn't buy the feats until they have the achievements. They have 2.5 years to make those kills.You are not including the time it takes to grind the Martial and Subterfuge achievements needed to hit some of those levels.
There will be the inevitable "down time" in between hitting the next level and getting side tracked by having to fulfil those achievements or by having to actually perform tasks not related to character development.
Your calculations might be bare bones minimum, Andius' represent maximixed, so perhaps we are looking at about 3.5 years.
You are also not taking into account any expansions to the skill lists, nor the probability of the inclusion of prestige classes.
If you don't want to wait 2.5 years to unlock Rogue level 8, you need to kill those 500 mobs with one weapon, and another 250 with another weapon. Which means, you will go out of your way to GRIND mob kills to get the achievement.
Grinding is the performance of a repetitive action that is not directly related to your primary objective. A grinding task is usually one that is meaningless, and simple and efficient enough to not involve any risk or a great deal of time as compared to other tasks.
No one will grind mob kills vs. Ogres for example, since you gain just as much from killing goblins, bandits and wolves.
I was having a chat earlier with Xeen, and we both came to the recognition that too many of PFO's systems have contradictory effects or purposes and that is what is leading to the feeling of some that the game has no vision or it is a disjointed vision at best.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since players don't have to spend xp until they are buying the skill, needing "down time" for gaining subterfuge and martial feats doesn't make any sense. The player just doesn't buy the feats until they have the achievements. They have 2.5 years to make those kills.You are not including the time it takes to grind the Martial and Subterfuge achievements needed to hit some of those levels.
There will be the inevitable "down time" in between hitting the next level and getting side tracked by having to fulfil those achievements or by having to actually perform tasks not related to character development.
Your calculations might be bare bones minimum, Andius' represent maximixed, so perhaps we are looking at about 3.5 years.
You are also not taking into account any expansions to the skill lists, nor the probability of the inclusion of prestige classes.
If you don't want to wait 2.5 years to unlock Rogue level 8, you need to kill those 500 mobs with one weapon, and another 250 with another weapon. Which means, you will go out of your way to GRIND mob kills to get the achievement.
Grinding is the performance of a repetitive action that is not directly related to your primary objective. A grinding task is usually one that is meaningless, and simple and efficient enough to not involve any risk or a great deal of time as compared to other tasks.
No one will grind mob kills vs. Ogres for example, since you gain just as much from killing goblins, bandits and wolves.
I was having a chat earlier with Xeen, and we both came to the recognition that too many of PFO's systems have contradictory effects or purposes and that is what is leading to the feeling of some that the game has no vision or it is a disjointed vision at best.
750 mobs is around 4000 to 5000 kills. I am sure it is not that high.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since Andius is reputed to be much better than average, achievements should not be an issue for him.
First off achievements have NOTHING to do with player skill. At least not any of the ones in the game thus far. They have to do with how much playtime you have and how willing to grind them you are. Anyone who thinks these achievements take skill has none. Sorry but it's the truth.
Second off I'm really not concerned with this system harming me. I'm a month one EE'er with a Destiny's Twin. Myself and any other players who focus soley on PvP with me will be PvP gods who will never be surpassed in raw stats. I even have the advantage of having my girlfriend with me from day 1 (also with a DT) which means there will be two of us ubers working together as long as we both stick with the game.
What I'm concerned about is people coming in. No DT. Years behind the curve. They feel like it's hopeless to ever catch up and quit the game.
This is not a solo game. This is not a game where you can go very far and expect to be left alone by everyone. People are only interested in fighting to get to the top against people who are already there for so long.
It's easy to sit here as the original players and say it should take indefinite time to optimize your character for a single build. It's in your advantage to support a system like that. Unlike you, I'm thinking of people other than myself and my current friends, and looking to the future of this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have no issues with 5 years, will discourage single build obsessed min/maxers :D
Though I will say 4.75 is a bit short of the mark as there is nothing in there about implements or the XP needed to train any of the expendables - but bring it on I say.
Dazyk's numbers include 217,000 xp on expendables.