I am asking this because typically you get Grapple checks per round based off your BAB, choosing them instead of attacks. However, the Eidolon's attacks are not based off their BAB, rather their level. Does this mean that I can make multiple successive damage checks while I have a target grappled up to my number of natural attacks?
I don't think so, but at the same time that seems so counter-intuitive given how many grapple related evolutions the Eidolon has. Is there such a thing as a full round grapple? Or am I just utterly missing something here?
Guess this is as much a rules question as an advice question, but I just don't understand why you would ever grapple with an Eidolon when you have up to 7 natural attacks to use normally. It seems so much better to just use full BAB and hit them seven times with super powerful claws or something.
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Edit: and the eidolon's attacks are still based off of BAB with the exception of natural attacks which, like everyone else, is limited by your number of limbs (though they get an extra limiter by level, you are correct)
No, you do not make grapple checks per round based off your BAB. Starting a Grapple is always standard action unless you have grab.Once you have started a grapple, maintaining a grapple is also a standard action, unless you have grater grapple or rapid grapple.
grappling is a standard action. (some feats like greater grpple, rapid grapple and etc change this, but still):
IT ISNT BASED ON YOUR BAB
now eidolons usually don't do grapple checks as such:
they get the grab evolution.
that evolution gives them the grab universal monster ability (check it out in the srd in the universal monster rules)
what this basically means is that each attack that the grab evolution apply to (not all are eligble, the evolution says which) IF successful allows the eidolon 1 free grapple check vs the victim.
The thing is, that this is for INITIATION only. If the next round they want to "maintain" the grapple (move the target, pin him down, damage him, etc) then they revert to universal grapple rules: standard action.
basically an eidolon with multiple grab attacks can grab a lot of people in his round, but the next round his options are either to continue holding one, OR to release all and try to grab them again.
Right...ok, I thought it worked that way. The monster grapple rules are pretty cool actually, shame they don't allow you to shred things.
...with that in mind
Why would you ever make a grappling Eidolon when you can just shred things with 3-7 claws? Like it just seems like a bad idea, heck anything except claws seems like a bad idea since you need to waste more points on other attacks.
Claws give you two attacks for a lower point price than any other option except for going 7 stingers. Guess Stingers are also good, it just seems weird to have so many options for grapping if it means sacrificing so much damage.
Right...ok, I thought it worked that way. The monster grapple rules are pretty cool actually, shame they don't allow you to shred things.
...with that in mind
Why would you ever make a grappling Eidolon when you can just shred things with 3-7 claws? Like it just seems like a bad idea, heck anything except claws seems like a bad idea since you need to waste more points on other attacks.
Claws give you two attacks for a lower point price than any other option except for going 7 stingers. Guess Stingers are also good, it just seems weird to have so many options for grapping if it means sacrificing so much damage.
because... a serpentine eidolon with constict can do one of those 2 things (depending on how a player builds it):
a)run in the middle of a pack of mobs, and with his reach attack each and everyone one time. This does damage, additional damage through constrict AND the bad guys cannot move from their spots till they break the grapple. Effectivly good aoe damage AND superb control.
b)run towards a big theat. Grab him. Then on the next round do 3 grapple checks, each doing damage + damage from constrict, plus hold him there.
an eidolon can get the 3 feats for the grappling, AND more importantly can get the final embrace feat line which is really tough to take other wise. Now, with constrict evolution you do your damage twice for each hit (basically). With final embrace you do your damage thrice. And with the grapple feat line you can do that 3 times/round.
Grappling an enemy, is usually an easy way to disable him from the fight, if he is grappling against someone that he cannot beat. In early levels, before casters get freedom of movement, grappling them is one of the easiest way to prevent them from casting spells for example, since they can't beat the ridiculously high concentration check.
I guess that makes sense, though it kind of sucks that the "best" grappling moves are secondary attacks. Tentacles simply for points saved (and because Cthulu eidolon is a neat idea) and Pincers which give you a bonus to grab but suck because as secondaries they have -5 to hit, which is lame as heck.
So you are stuck grabbing with just normal moves like Bite. Idk, seems weird. Wish there was an evolution to make one kind of attacks Primary instead of secondary.
Oh well, good to know that making a grappling Eidolon has some uses to it.
Right...ok, I thought it worked that way. The monster grapple rules are pretty cool actually, shame they don't allow you to shred things.
...with that in mind
Why would you ever make a grappling Eidolon when you can just shred things with 3-7 claws? Like it just seems like a bad idea, heck anything except claws seems like a bad idea since you need to waste more points on other attacks.
Claws give you two attacks for a lower point price than any other option except for going 7 stingers. Guess Stingers are also good, it just seems weird to have so many options for grapping if it means sacrificing so much damage.
If the creature has high DR it may be advantageous to grapple them rather then try and damage them
Grappling can be used to disable a foe, casting while grappled is rather difficult (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level). A grappled caster is a dead caster and not everyone gets freedom of movement or can afford to have the ring. (especially NPC's) The Eidolon could also do something like jump of a cliff with whomever its grappling with. A grappled opponent also can't take any action that requires two hands. So a enemy using a two-handed weapon can't use it while grappled nor does he threaten allowing allies to move into flanking position.
The grab evolution lets the Eidolon make a grapple check for FREE simply by hitting with the associated attack. While maintaining the grapple the following round requires a standard action its not obligated to try.
"If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space "
A large bipedal Eidolon with grab is one of the ways to maintain battlefield control. Anyone who tries to pass him gets grabbed and pulled into an adjacent square. The Eidolon then releases him on it own turn. Maintaining a grapple isn't necessary for it to be useful.
True, I guess the battlefield control is pretty handy. Especially since the Eidolon doesn't work in a vacuum. I just am one of those players that likes rolling as many dice as possible, it's fun when you are rolling like 13d6 to determine your damage.
Will have to keep in mind the whole "jump off a cliff thing" since I can dismiss the Eidolon instantly at any time.
The fact the grab ability only works on creatures one size category smaller is somewhat limiting (this is different then the universal grab rules!)
I've tried making grabby eidolons, but usually get hung up on that size restriction and abandon the idea.
Remember that due to your share spells ability a Summoner can cast enlarge person on his Eidolon(despite it not being a person) which certainly helps
It can certainly be campaign dependent, but if you tend to have encounters with multiple creatures they probably aren't to big otherwise they'd get in the way of getting at the party.(especially in a dungeon crawl) So in many campaigns its not only viable but enough to make a DM pull out hair.
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ShroudedInLight wrote:
I am asking this because typically you get Grapple checks per round based off your BAB, choosing them instead of attacks. However, the Eidolon's attacks are not based off their BAB, rather their level. Does this mean that I can make multiple successive damage checks while I have a target grappled up to my number of natural attacks?
You're wrong Eidolon attacks ARE based on BAB just like all attacks. The only difference is whether they are iterative, or natural.
The answer is yes you can make multiple attacks, but only if you are willing to take a -20 to your CMB for grapple checks. at that point you are choosing one limb to hold your grapplee and the rest to attack.
And the Eidolon cannot take the Grappling style, otherwise that would be awesome since it reduces the penalty for holding a target by one hand.
Why can eidolon's not take grappling style? Eidolon's are intelligent. Last I checked they aren't limited like animal companions in what feats they can take. All they need is improved grapple, power attack, and a BAB of 6 and they qualify.
I tend to read eidolon evolutions as isolated from the universal monster rules, just because they contradict in so many places. Grab is one of those places.
You can do some really alarming combos with the grab evolution, pounce, and rake.
Pounce, grab the enemy with the improved grab on your claw, deal claw damage + 2 claws from rake. Release the grapple. Attack with the second claw, deal claw damage plus 2 claws from rake. Of course, your summoner has haste, right? Release again, grab again, three claws again. End the turn on a grapple if you feel like it. You've just chained 6 claw attacks on a pounce. You probably had a bite in there somewhere also.
Now... there are a lot of potential gotchas here. Chief among them is that the GM is explicitly in charge of placing common sense limitations on your free actions, which is what you're using like three times here.
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Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Hawktitan wrote:
They could. You would also need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (which is fairly useless for an eidolon).
Unless I'm looking in the wrong place, they would also need a flurry class feature, which is much more complicated.
You are overlooking the punctuation in the prerequisites. They must have one (not all) of the following:
1) Monk's flurry of blows
2) Brawler's flurry
3) BAB +6
There is no way that I know of for an eidolon to get either flurry ability, but the eidolon of a summoner of level 7+ automatically meets the BAB requirement.
Now... there are a lot of potential gotchas here. Chief among them is that the GM is explicitly in charge of placing common sense limitations on your free actions, which is what you're using like three times here.
Still, cute trick.
I'd like to hear any GM's reason for why I cannot let go of something. Seriously that would be hilarious to hear.
"No, it takes too much effort to relax your muscles."
"But relaxing my muscles is literally no effort. I'm just letting gravity or them do their thing."
"Still too much effort. You've relaxed your muscles too many times in this 6 seconds. There's no way you could relax them so many times in that amount of time."
Sounds flat out ridiculous to me. Like GM's that say you can't pull a bow in the climactic dialogue of the villain cause "reasons."
I'd like to hear any GM's reason for why I cannot let go of something. Seriously that would be hilarious to hear.
"No, it takes too much effort to relax your muscles."
"But relaxing my muscles is literally no effort. I'm just letting gravity or them do their thing."
"Still too much effort. You've relaxed your muscles too many times in this 6 seconds. There's no way you could relax them so many times in that amount of time."
Sounds flat out ridiculous to me. Like GM's that say you can't pull a bow in the climactic dialogue of the villain cause "reasons."
The GM is within their rights to limit to how many times you can plausibly release a grapple and re-initiate it in the span of a six-second round. Releasing a grapple does take time, if not much effort. And how exactly does one release a person while starting a grapple in effectively the same span of time? These are rhetorical questions. The rules are clear: it's the GM's call. That's not fiat -- it's explicitly called out in the free action rules.
It's kind of cool in a "fighting game combo" kind of way, but that's not exactly plausible and might not sit well with some GMs.
But it doesn't matter. The same rules that permit this silliness in multi-grapples are the rules that place the limit of free actions at the GM's discretion. One shouldn't pick and choose. Only use this trick if your GM approves it. That's true for anything, of course, but especially true in this case.
Please don't let me have it on my conscience that a player tries to sneak this cheese past a GM and then uses the above quotes arguments. Please don't make me a monster.
I'd like to hear any GM's reason for why I cannot let go of something. Seriously that would be hilarious to hear.
"No, it takes too much effort to relax your muscles."
"But relaxing my muscles is literally no effort. I'm just letting gravity or them do their thing."
"Still too much effort. You've relaxed your muscles too many times in this 6 seconds. There's no way you could relax them so many times in that amount of time."
Sounds flat out ridiculous to me. Like GM's that say you can't pull a bow in the climactic dialogue of the villain cause "reasons."
The GM is within their rights to limit to how many times you can plausibly release a grapple and re-initiate it in the span of a six-second round. Releasing a grapple does take time, if not much effort. And how exactly does one release a person while starting a grapple in effectively the same span of time? These are rhetorical questions. The rules are clear: it's the GM's call. That's not fiat -- it's explicitly called out in the free action rules.
It's kind of cool in a "fighting game combo" kind of way, but that's not exactly plausible and might not sit well with some GMs.
But it doesn't matter. The same rules that permit this silliness in multi-grapples are the rules that place the limit of free actions at the GM's discretion. One shouldn't pick and choose. Only use this trick if your GM approves it. That's true for anything, of course, but especially true in this case.
Please don't let me have it on my conscience that a player tries to sneak this cheese past a GM and then uses the above quotes arguments. Please don't make me a monster.
I was going to post a disagreement, but I suppose I don't want to cause a fight between other players and such. Besides, I can come up with much better things for players to haunt GM's with :P mwahahaha
Pounce, grab the enemy with the improved grab on your claw, deal claw damage + 2 claws from rake. Release the grapple. Attack with the second claw, deal claw damage plus 2 claws from rake. Of course, your summoner has haste, right? Release again, grab again, three claws again. End the turn on a grapple if you feel like it. You've just chained 6 claw attacks on a pounce. You probably had a bite in there somewhere also.
Even more troublesome is the fact that your rake attacks are listed as "claw" in the stat block.
Pounce, grab the enemy with the improved grab on your claw, deal claw damage + 2 claws from rake. Release the grapple. Attack with the second claw, deal claw damage plus 2 claws from rake. Of course, your summoner has haste, right? Release again, grab again, three claws again. End the turn on a grapple if you feel like it. You've just chained 6 claw attacks on a pounce. You probably had a bite in there somewhere also.
Even more troublesome is the fact that your rake attacks are listed as "claw" in the stat block.
Not really:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
Claws on its feet=/=claws.
Take note that it specifically states "allows them to make RAKE attacks" and "those RAKE attacks" which means that you need separate feats/evolutions to enhance their damage, and you can't put things like grab on them.
Take note that it specifically states "allows them to make RAKE attacks" and "those RAKE attacks" which means that you need separate feats/evolutions to enhance their damage, and you can't put things like grab on them.
That is precisely my interpretation, because I like self-policing my eidolon for my GM's sanity.
However, looking at any monster statblock that includes a rake provides a powerful case that rakes are indeed additional claw attacks. Must we look at a statblock that says "2 claws +x" and deem that they are not, in fact, claw attacks?
But still! I prefaced all of this nonsense with the supposition that eidolon abilities and universal monster abilities are not equivalent. They differ too much. Rake fundamentally differs in horrible ways already. I suggest that GMs should rule as you have above: this is eidolon rake, they are rake attacks, "claw" is merely descriptive flavor text. But it is still up to the individual GM.
It is not the intention of the rake ability to introduce a grab-rake cycle that could potentially go on and on. It would make for a horrible gameplay experience at that. I just think it's funny that the case can be made.
I've heard of grapple/release shenanigans, put me in the category of not allowing it more then once per round if I were GMimg.
Also, rakes are NOT claw attacks. Especially on eidolons. This is so abundantly clear and doing things like this make eidolons look even more stupidly broken then they already are. Especially as two rake attacks count as a single natural attack in terms of limits.
