Current state of open pvp


Pathfinder Online

1 to 50 of 88 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Goblin Squad Member

Hi,

Haven't been paying much attention of the Pathfinder Online Development for many months, so many good hopeful games under development it's hard to keep track. But even with open pvp games like Rust Alpha and Archage out, Pathfinder Online is still one of my most anticipated mmo's. Maybe because it reminds me of Warhammer Online as a sandbox with a great IP.

I don't want to start a debate about PVP, so in that spirit please refrain from posting your opinion on PVP.

So my question is what is the current state of open pvp?
Are there other PVP options outside open pvp like battlegrounds etc?
Do we know more about the plans for open pvp and pvp in general?

Thanks.


As of right now the open part of PVP is not really in the game. You can do it but you will lose reputation. From what I saw, after your first kill you will be to a point of untrainable. I read someone saying that it will take 50 hours of your character hiding in a corner to recover the reputation.

Goblin Squad Member

Current state: right now we take Reputation hits for taking two attacks against someone, even against marked hostile characters. So that's not quite working. Character loot doesn't drop yet, either, so it's mostly (all?) downside right now.

Other PvP options: There's nothing like battlegrounds planned, iirc. The Devs seem to want to keep it in the main game and keep it meaningful.

Plans: In general, character groups will have a limited pool of Influence (at company level) or Development Index (at settlement level) to declare feud or war on other groups, which flags the two groups Hostile to one another. Other characters might be flagged Hostile for committing crimes, attacking against non-Hostiles, and other reasons. Attacking non-Hostiles will typically cause a character Reputation loss; very low Rep will shut off additional training, cause guards to agro, limit settlement options, that sort of thing.

Goblin Squad Member

For at least the start of EE the only thing resembling open PvP will be fighting around the capturable Towers during their vulnerability windows. Besides that you will experience reputation hits for randomly PvP which can quickly result in you not being able to train.

In the future the game will end up being conditionally open PvP, sure you can attack anyone but it will make your life incredibly hard if you do it more than once or twice in a blue moon via the same reputation system. Instead you'll use one of the several sub-systems to engage in 'legit'(no reputation hit) pvp, this does not necessarily mean it will be consensual but it will remove the basic annoyance of random ganking. Stand and Deliver is a replacement mechanic for ganking that will encourage attackers to let their targets go after paying a ransom. There will be feuds (company level fights), wars (settlements and nation fights), bounty hunting, assassinations, law system, and faction system in the future that all provide PvP.

Currently I do not believe there are any plans for battleground style PvP, everything happens in the primary world.


Feuds and wars will be in soon, not sure how soon.

Stand and Deliver, Assassinations, and Bounty Hunting will be in eventually maybe. I say maybe because I did read that they are possible but not guaranteed to be placed on the current list of things to be done. They are on a list of possibles. Hopefully someone pushes them to the top.

I could be wrong, as its from memory.

Goblin Squad Member

Uthgar Blackbeard wrote:
...50 hours...

It takes 50 hours of in-game time to go from minimum Reputation (after the next patch sets the minimum to the correct value) to maximum; one regains one point of Reputation every 12 seconds. I don't know, however, what the minimum value is where the trainers will talk to you, so that'll be a worst-case scenario under current conditions.


I believe they will talk to you at -2499


It takes about 2 days to recover from -5000 reputation. And yes you can talk to npcs again at -2499 reputation.

Goblin Squad Member

Uthgar Blackbeard wrote:
I believe they will talk to you at -2499

This is true for the current NPC settlements. PC settlements will have the option of going higher or lower than that number, provided they are willing to accept the costs of that decision.

Goblin Squad Member

Good; that means 16 hours, 40 minutes in-game after hitting the -7500 minimum Reputation. That's once the min-Rep bug gets fixed in the next build.


Think about it though. At some point down advanced training, you may need weeks worth of EXP accumulation to be able to train the next level up of a thing you need.

If you feel like it, you could spend several weeks going on a rampage, then cool off for two days to regain rep before going in train what you need.

Then go rampage again.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

We've no indication, though, that the current rate of Reputation-gain will be the final value.


Of course. But that won't change anything but the cool down period.

At some point the lack of need to immediately train anything will make the reputation system (as currently spec'ed out) a nullified barrier to unchecked PvP ganking.

I guess if player-run settlements have the ability to permanently ban a player from training in their settlement, and most/all settlements might choose to ban a person for being a perpetual jerk, that could provide enough inducement to keep the ganking to reasonable levels.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || GenAknosc wrote:

Of course. But that won't change anything but the cool down period.

At some point the lack of need to immediately train anything will make the reputation system (as currently spec'ed out) a nullified barrier to unchecked PvP ganking.

I guess if player-run settlements have the ability to permanently ban a player from training in their settlement, and most/all settlements might choose to ban a person for being a perpetual jerk, that could provide enough inducement to keep the ganking to reasonable levels.

Also remember that you can't even enter the towns at a certain point...that's going to make resupplying and crafting virtually impossible without help from a friendly.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || GenAknosc wrote:
At some point the lack of need to immediately train anything will make the reputation system (as currently spec'ed out) a nullified barrier to unchecked PvP ganking.

The Reputation system is not meant to be a "silver bullet" that cures griefing. It's one part of a multi-layered approach. Probably the most important part of that multi-layered approach is the general attitude of the community.

Goblin Squad Member

There is no open pvp. You make yourself worthless when you attack anyone who isn't flagged for pvp. At this point it mine as well be a PvE WoW server.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Phyllain wrote:
There is no open pvp. You make yourself worthless when you attack anyone who isn't flagged for pvp. At this point it mine as well be a PvE WoW server.

Just a reminder that the current system is better than starting out as a murder simulator. There will be plenty of PvP once the War of Towers starts up, even if there's never enough "Open PvP" to suit some folks.

On a related note: Ideascale - Allow us to flag ourselves without losing Reputation.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Right now, viable open world PVP appears to be about six weeks away: Four more weeks of Alpha testing, then two weeks of Early Enrollment before the War of Towers starts.

Goblinworks could enable some form of viable (reputation-neutral) PVP before then, but we don't have any indications that they will.


Also, there is this. It is possible to PvP without completely obliterating your reputation. Some care is required, however.

PvP Dueling Sign-up for Alpha 8

Since we can have 3 characters simultaneously gaining Exp in Alpha, it is also possible to have a side character devoted to PvP, to minimize risk to the main character.

Finally, I noticed last night that after Nihimon and my reputations had dropped into the upper hundreds and low 1,000's, we did not seem to suffer as much from beating on each other. This observation makes me begin to wonder if perhaps the reputation system is, in fact, working as intended.

In short, PvP is possible, with care.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:

Also, there is this. It is possible to PvP without completely obliterating your reputation. Some care is required, however.

PvP Dueling Sign-up for Alpha 8

Since we can have 3 characters simultaneously gaining Exp in Alpha, it is also possible to have a side character devoted to PvP, to minimize risk to the main character.

Finally, I noticed last night that after Nihimon and my reputations had dropped into the upper hundreds and low 1,000's, we did not seem to suffer as much from beating on each other. This observation makes me begin to wonder if perhaps the reputation system is, in fact, working as intended.

In short, PvP is possible, with care.

Yes you can arrange PvP and go from 7500 to 500 in one two hit on your willing participant. Then after that, as your running an escalation in a group, you accidentally hit someone twice in the chaos, and you might as well wipe your character.

Actually, I'd prefer a voluntary flagging system where there would be a real advantage to flagging yourself with a timed, stacked buff.

Limit the feats and or tiered gear that can be used, while not flagged.


Ah, yes. That is a very good point about accidentally whacking your friends during escalations...

What I offered above is probably the best we can do without a flagging system, but still also useful for if we get a flagging system in to facilitate rep-friendly PvP

EDIT: I suppose the point of the thread I created is to help folks find each other, rather than offer a solution, per se.


Nihimon wrote:
Gol Phyllain wrote:
There is no open pvp. You make yourself worthless when you attack anyone who isn't flagged for pvp. At this point it mine as well be a PvE WoW server.

Just a reminder that the current system is better than starting out as a murder simulator. There will be plenty of PvP once the War of Towers starts up, even if there's never enough "Open PvP" to suit some folks.

On a related note: Ideascale - Allow us to flag ourselves without losing Reputation.

I wonder. as I have said before (and this is true!) I played Mortal Online for months, did much, fought some people, but I never ganked someone. Never even crossed my mind.

Still, I miss the idea of open pvp. Because it gives people something to fight. There are ways to keep the game from being a murder sim, and a lot of mechanics in other games can be exploited, but the rep system now is bad.

Not to mention, if you can bleed it off from min to max in 50 hours, you could, as said, rampage. It will more likely affect those who want to kill once. I imagine later on there will be places you can train and not get guarded even at -7500.

I dunno. It's yet to be seen how it will work out in the long run, but right now it seems as though it's a bit too much, and later on it seems like it might not even matter.

Edit: I still feel like some of the far away areas should be open pvp.

CEO, Goblinworks

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The reason there is not more PvP in the Alpha is not reputation losses. The reason is that there is no reason to engage in PvP. You don't get any benefit from killing a character. So why bother?

You can recover (get the NPCs to talk to you again) from max reputation loss (after we fix the no max loss bug tomorrow) in 20 hours. So you could kill a characters on Friday, and if you played 10 hours on Saturday and Sunday be back to where you started. (Yeah, 10 hours is a lot for some people I know but I also know there are lots of people for whom that is well within the range of time they'll sink into the game.)

Goblin Squad Member

Only 20 hours? That changes my understanding completely. I was mildly concerned that PvP in PFO was going to be more like Hisec than anything else (ie only within a Feud, due to the severe penalties involved otherwise).

But this means that if I feel the need to kill a nuisance (say, an unaffiliated alt gatherer), I actually have a meaningful choice to make about whether or not to go through with it. And that is good.

Goblin Squad Member

20 hours, at 12 seconds in-game per Reputation point, takes one from -7500 to -1500. That's right about where many have been guessing we'd be able to train again.

Thanks for confirming, Ryan. Could you please tell us whether this's the rate we should expect to become permanent, or will you be experimenting with others?

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

People need to stop expecting the game system to handle everything with policing PvP. The largest detractor from open ganking will be how the community responds to it. Characters at high levels may have less to lose as far as not having access to town services, but they have a heck of a lot more to lose when a group of bounty hunters puts them on their hit list, or they become blacklisted by the players.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Bluddwolf wrote:

Actually, I'd prefer a voluntary flagging system where there would be a real advantage to flagging yourself with a timed, stacked buff.

Limit the feats and or tiered gear that can be used, while not flagged.

I would object to the recommendation of that last sentence. There shouldn't be an aristocracy elevating one particular play style. PvP players aren't better people than other players and they don't need exclusive perks as far as I'm concerned. Keep an even playing field.

Goblin Squad Member

TBH a large number of players in Alpha are confused and nervous about the rep system and say stuff like .. "This guy killed me at the shrine in Marchmont. I wanted to hit him back but wasn't game in case it destroyed my rep".

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

20 hours, at 12 seconds in-game per Reputation point, takes one from -7500 to -1500. That's right about where many have been guessing we'd be able to train again.

Thanks for confirming, Ryan. Could you please tell us whether this's the rate we should expect to become permanent, or will you be experimenting with others?

Actually, you can train again at -2499, so that would be 16.67 hours

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
The reason there is not more PvP in the Alpha is not reputation losses. The reason is that there is no reason to engage in PvP. You don't get any benefit from killing a character. So why bother?

Yeah, because we all know it is far more fun to fight mindless mobs, endlessly, for very limited purpose.


KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
TBH a large number of players in Alpha are confused and nervous about the rep system and say stuff like .. "This guy killed me at the shrine in Marchmont. I wanted to hit him back but wasn't game in case it destroyed my rep".

This is a good point. Perhaps we need to, as a community, do a better job informing the new players (and ourselves) about how the reputation system works. Until just now and reading the posts above, I was under the impression that negative reputation was a death knell for a character. Simply put, it isn't.

That other players are reluctant do defend themselves is even more concerning.

I'm thinking that, perhaps, what the reputation system needs more right now is an image overhaul, not a mechanics overhaul (if it needs one at all).

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The recovery time is too fast. I hope that it is just so, for alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

I just hope the attacker flag stays up long enough for the defender to actually defend himself. If a bandito shoots me in the foot and I can't catch up to him in time his flag may wear off and then I'd get the attacker flag and he'd get the free kill.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Actually, you can train again at -2499, so that would be 16.67 hours

Yah, folks'd said -2499 earlier today, but I figured I'd be well-advised not to quibble with the CEO's number of 20 hours, thus -1499 :-).

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
The recovery time is too fast. I hope that it is just so, for alpha.

20 hours of in game time is about 8 - 12 days for your average player. That is a pretty steep penalty and should keep most casual players away from griefing.

Any longer and they might just swing the pendulum the other way, and end up encouraging low rep, naked, noob zergs. I certainly wouldn't mind a bit of that kind of game play either, it's kind of fun.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
The recovery time is too fast. I hope that it is just so, for alpha.

20 hours of in game time is about 8 - 12 days for your average player. That is a pretty steep penalty and should keep most casual players away from griefing.

Any longer and they might just swing the pendulum the other way, and end up encouraging low rep, naked, noob zergs. I certainly wouldn't mind a bit of that kind of game play either, it's kind of fun.

20 hours of logged in back at your home settlement while you play WoW watch movies or go out for dinner and leave the laptop running at home.

It is not 20 hours of play. It is just 20 hours logged into the server.

Goblin Squad Member

I managed recover my security status after a year spent pirating in EVE. Even if you need to be actually playing, twenty hours is long enough to be significant without being soulcrushing like that was.

Goblin Squad Member

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
The recovery time is too fast. I hope that it is just so, for alpha.

20 hours of in game time is about 8 - 12 days for your average player. That is a pretty steep penalty and should keep most casual players away from griefing.

Any longer and they might just swing the pendulum the other way, and end up encouraging low rep, naked, noob zergs. I certainly wouldn't mind a bit of that kind of game play either, it's kind of fun.

20 hours of logged in back at your home settlement while you play WoW watch movies or go out for dinner and leave the laptop running at home.

It is not 20 hours of play. It is just 20 hours logged into the server.

I guess we will see. It is after all an Open World PVP game, I don't get why it should be so punishing to actually pvp in it.

Goblin Squad Member

See what evolves.

Low Rep settlements may eventually acquire the same level of status as bluesec SOV coalitions in EVE who pretty much run the game.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bluddwolf wrote:
...keep most casual players away from griefing.

I suspect it's relatively easy to keep most casual players away from griefing. I can only imagine the multi-layered approach that's necessary to keep the dedicated from it.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine it; Goblinworks already has, and is designing for it :-).

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
...keep most casual players away from griefing.

I suspect it's relatively easy to keep most casual players away from griefing. I can only imagine the multi-layered approach that's necessary to keep the dedicated from it.

Oh, wait. I don't have to imagine it; Goblinworks already has, and is designing for it :-).

You can never stop it completely. I know someone in EVE who continually generates new email addresses and creates 14 day trial accounts specifically to grief new players in noob ships and people silly enough to undock in unfitted ships they just bought, generally around Jita and the Perimeter gate.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the good answers about the current state and the future plans Goblinworks have stated.

Goblinworks is using the best from Warhammer Online the Public Quests and scratching the battlegrounds instances which I hope will be good since open PVP creates emergent gameplay as opposed to simple blue vs red battles.

A few more questions

Will lower trained/level characters be able to fight against highly trained/level characters? For example in WoW you can't even hurt a lvl 60 as a lvl 30. I'm asking because open pvp might end up being a end game component, which is not bad in itself, my worst experience in MMO is from open pvp being constantly griefed from progressing in that horrible game Lineage.

How will multi group/faction battles for the Towers function? Do you have to declare war against all factions trying to conquer the tower before attacking to not lose reputation? Does all other group get flagged hostile in that zone? Is it first to the finish like i.e in Warhammer Online where you had to kill the Castle Commander?

The Faction system is that Player owned Factions or ingame Factions like in Warhammer Order vs Destruction?

Goblin Squad Member

the power curve is very gentle, compared to other games such as wow. You can hurt people as a low level, though it take a while and 1v1 you are very likely to lose. Remember though that it isn't the same leveling as you would in a normal "Themepark" MMO, there is no leveling 1-60. You level based on which skills and feats you CHOOSE to learn and the order you CHOOSE to do so. There are role levels to show your increasing your skills pertaining to a particular role, similar to leveling in the TT version, but not 100% the same. It would be more likely to compare characters similar to Eve where skill points determines your characters' strength, but even then, your focus is another thing all together. If you level predominately crafter, even at "max level" in 2.5 real like years, vs someone whole leveled PVP for say 1 year, it is very likely the PVP character will destroy the crafter in a 1v1 fight. Since his skills and feats are focused around combat and PVP whereas the crafter isn't, that makes a different.

I hope this clears up the question about the power curve.

The WoT is currently being described as FFA within a tower that is unclaimed, or during the owner's PVP window, meaning ALL KILLS ARE REP FREE. Once the tower is claimed by 1 company, it can be dedicated to a settlement and shares that settlement's PVP window. If the window is closed, then it is a normal hex in terms of rep loss for pvp.

Factions might take a while to be in game, and I believe they are intended to be NPC groups we join for various perks while opening up to PVP at high ranks within the faction. Think of it like joining a fraternity. As a low ranked member, you get some perks and that's it. As you rank up within the faction, you gain more benefits, but you also open up to PVP from opposing factions.

I think you might be confusing factions with companies? (because you use faction a few times in you questions.) Companies are similar to guilds in other games. It is a group of players that band together over common interests and goals. Several companies make up a settlement, which is a fixed place in the world that houses training facilities and crafting/AH/ect buildings. Companies and Settlements (save 3 NPC settlements) are all 100% PC owned/created. The first 33 settlements will be in for EE very early and will be done by template, so will be similar to one another. As the game progresses, into and beyond OE, the intent is to add more customization to these settlements, in addition to allowing wars to destroy them and allow for new ones to rise.

I hope this answers your questions. Sorry for the wall of text.

Goblin Squad Member

"The Goodfellow" wrote:

the power curve is very gentle, compared to other games such as wow. You can hurt people as a low level, though it take a while and 1v1 you are very likely to lose. Remember though that it isn't the same leveling as you would in a normal "Themepark" MMO, there is no leveling 1-60. You level based on which skills and feats you CHOOSE to learn and the order you CHOOSE to do so. There are role levels to show your increasing your skills pertaining to a particular role, similar to leveling in the TT version, but not 100% the same. It would be more likely to compare characters similar to Eve where skill points determines your characters' strength, but even then, your focus is another thing all together. If you level predominately crafter, even at "max level" in 2.5 real like years, vs someone whole leveled PVP for say 1 year, it is very likely the PVP character will destroy the crafter in a 1v1 fight. Since his skills and feats are focused around combat and PVP whereas the crafter isn't, that makes a different.

I hope this clears up the question about the power curve.

The WoT is currently being described as FFA within a tower that is unclaimed, or during the owner's PVP window, meaning ALL KILLS ARE REP FREE. Once the tower is claimed by 1 company, it can be dedicated to a settlement and shares that settlement's PVP window. If the window is closed, then it is a normal hex in terms of rep loss for pvp.

Factions might take a while to be in game, and I believe they are intended to be NPC groups we join for various perks while opening up to PVP at high ranks within the faction. Think of it like joining a fraternity. As a low ranked member, you get some perks and that's it. As you rank up within the faction, you gain more benefits, but you also open up to PVP from opposing factions.

I think you might be confusing factions with companies? (because you use faction a few times in you questions.) Companies are similar to guilds in other games. It is a group of players that band together over common...

A wall of text was what I was after! Thanks for reply.

I'm just hoping other games will be able to keep me distracted until Pathfinder Online is released, the system sounds great. Looking forward to seeing more of the player based economy with regards to PVP gear, and read more from you guys who are in alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

well, once the AH gets in and the bugs worked out, we can begin to get a sense of how the economy will work. Currently, the only sort of economy in place is a barter system. Using general chat to WTT type of thing. AH should fix this. The full system the devs have said is likely to be local markets to promote trading one settlement to another. So the economy will change as the game evolves. Keep reading the blogs, watch the forums and you should be fine.

Side note: If you have purchased ANY sort of account with GW, even an OE one, they said they will be doing the stress test here soon so you can get in and see for yourself.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || GenAknosc wrote:

Think about it though. At some point down advanced training, you may need weeks worth of EXP accumulation to be able to train the next level up of a thing you need.

If you feel like it, you could spend several weeks going on a rampage, then cool off for two days to regain rep before going in train what you need.

Then go rampage again.

I expect that's just what some people will do. That, and buy the gear they need for their main on an alt, or have a friend bring it to them.

The current reputation system is very broken, but I feel like this is a community that will mainly need to be shown that the hard way before they are willing to back the needed fixes.

For the record, I have been backing moderate decline / slow recovery since the very beginning of the reputation system's announcement. I would classify the current system as instant decline / quick recovery.

You're a murder-hobo if you make one meaningful kill, or even accidentally use touch of darkness on the nearly dead ally you meant to heal, and if you want to go on a killing rampage for days, weeks, months, or even years the recovery time is the same.

Goblin Squad Member

I do not believe that the reputation system itself is broken in any way (well, except maybe how it currently treats friendly fire), but I do agree with Andius that it is difficult to understand the current numbers.

While the current recovery rate may make sense for Alpha, it is difficult to see how anything good could come out of it if the same recovery rate would be used when EE starts. Moderate (I would actually prefer fast in the beginning and slower when you get closer to the bottom) decline and slow recovery would indeed seem to be the way to go in the long run.

Goblin Squad Member

Here is how it's broken. Say you either accidentally kill someone or kill someone because you feel it's really necessary. You take the full rep hit which at the moment will almost assuredly take you straight from "upstanding citizen" to "murder-hobo".

So now you're a murder hobo. You have no farther left to slide, and it will take you about 20 days to regain your good standing.

So what are the further consequences if you go on a killing rampage? Your rep is already rock bottom so.... +however long that killing rampage takes to your 20 days.

Killing rampage =/= griefing so I think a great many players stuck in this situation are going to decide 24-72 hours tacked on to their 20 days is worth it for the freedom to play PFO has a murder sim for that period of time. Some people are even going to plan out their murder sprees so they can maintain them as long as possible and then regain their rep just in time for a skill shopping spree. Especially as the current crowd becomes a minority to general MMO players.

However if you drastically lower the cost to rep for a single kill and greatly raise the time to get from -7500 to no longer red, then each and every kill is a meaningful choice except for what will become a tiny minority of players willing to seriously trash their rep for a prolonged period of time to play PFO as a murder sim.

Goblin Squad Member

A 24-72 hour rampage will be easier to spot and terminate than chronic 'accidents'.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
A 24-72 hour rampage will be easier to spot and terminate than chronic 'accidents'.

Right. If it were griefing. Which it isn't.

1 to 50 of 88 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / Current state of open pvp All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.