Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I was planning on my deaf oradin taking linguistics: read lips. But I would also like to do linguistics: ASL (Absolom Sign Language) with a friend who I will be playing with, and who would also be putting a point in linguistics. The flavor would be right.
This post by James Sutter said:
Seekers of Secrets talks about the complex system of Pathfinder hand signals taught in the Grand Lodge, and it's mentioned a number of times in Dave Gross's novels. That said, that's a created code rather than a natural language.
As folks have said, any time you have a number of deaf, mute, or hard-of-hearing folks in the same place, you're going to develop a natural sign language. I think it's safe to assume that there are such communities all over the Inner Sea region, and that while they are undoubtedly regional rather than universal (as is true in our own world), they probably have a relatively easy time bridging the gap.
I would love to have a PFS okayed sign language that is regional for character flavor and backstory. I would still do linguistics: read lips to communicate with other players and NPCs. I would be okay with spending two points in linguistics at different levels to have this option for my character.
Hmm
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I'm pretty sure I've had characters with "Read Lips" as a language, and it's been OK for PFS before.
It might have come up in another discussion about it here around the time Oracles came out in the APG, with their deaf curse? Here's one.
Found this:
Any PC may learn to read lips with a rank in Linguistics as if they had learned a new language. When reading the lips of a speaking creature within 10 feet in normal lighting conditions, the reader need not make any skill checks. In situations of dim lighting, extreme distances, or to read the lips of someone trying to hide their words from the reader, the reader must make Perception checks (DC determined by the GM based on the situation). A lip reader may only understand spoken words in a language it knows.
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There are currently no legal sign languages in PFS. Flail Snail and Drow Sign Language (Sakvroth) are the only defined sign languages in Pathfinder and neither is legal for PCs in PFS.
Under additional resources Ultimate Magic it states only the listed items were not legal for play. Monk vows were not listed as illegal. It clearly states in the text that monks may communicate with others using sign language under the Vow of Silence. It would seem the developers assume this to be a common language.
"Vow of Silence: The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons and opponents so as to minimize even these sounds. The monk is allowed to make a nonvocal noise to warn another of danger (such as by stomping or clapping). The monk is allowed to use gestures and motions to communicate with others (including sign language) and is allowed to write. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every 6 monk levels (minimum +1)."
If the vows are allowed then it would seem that sign language would be an accepted form of communication in the society as well as it is written in the text of the vow, and was not listed under the "not legal for play" list for the book.
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The monk is allowed to use sign language, doesn't mean he's allowed to learn it. There are no legally defined sign languages in PFS.
In a home game the GM could just allow you to make up your own regional sign language, however in PFS a language must come from a legal source just like everything else.
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Avatar, if that is the case then why does the additional resources call out specific languages as being learnable by linguistics? If you look under inner sea world guide you'll see what I mean. Having the ability to learn a language needs a legal source, otherwise we would have characters learning Russian to gain an advantage in Rasputin Must Die. Or otherwise having languages that no NPC has any chance short of linguistics of understanding (something that typically requires a spell to accomplish).
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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All right, consider this my petition to get them changed.
Under the rules as they are now, I and my friend could have Polyglot language as a bonus language (never mind linguistics) and speak a language together that 98% of the NPCs will never understand, unless we happen to be adventuring in the Mwangi wastes.
Here is what I propose:
With linguistics, PCs could take a sign language variant of any of the available inner sea languages.
Any NPC speaking that language would have a 20% chance of understanding sign language (much higher than in real life, but it prevents the "secret language" advantage) because they just happen to have a deaf relative.
I propose this in my petition to increase the richness and diversity of the Inner Sea world, and to allow players the chance to go "all out" when playing deaf characters.
Hmm
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The Shield Speech spell from Taldor, Echoes of Glory companion booklet mentions Sign Language.
You can securely communicate with one creature within range. So long as your target remains within 10 feet of you, you and it can speak freely to each other without fear of being overheard. Communications that involve shield speech cannot be spied on, such as with a divination spell, and observers of the conversation can tell you are communicating but cannot read lips or hear the conversation unless they are the target of the spell. If you or the target speak to any other creatures, they can hear you normally (only communication between you and the target is protected). The spell does not shield writing, sign language, or any form of communication other than speaking.
So does it means that if you have this booklet, you can gain Sign Language as an official language?
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The Shield Speech spell from Taldor, Echoes of Glory companion booklet mentions Sign Language.
You can securely communicate with one creature within range. So long as your target remains within 10 feet of you, you and it can speak freely to each other without fear of being overheard. Communications that involve shield speech cannot be spied on, such as with a divination spell, and observers of the conversation can tell you are communicating but cannot read lips or hear the conversation unless they are the target of the spell. If you or the target speak to any other creatures, they can hear you normally (only communication between you and the target is protected). The spell does not shield writing, sign language, or any form of communication other than speaking.So does it means that if you have this booklet, you can gain Sign Language as an official language?
What? No. It means you can cast the spell and audibly talk to your target within 10' of you without being overheard or having your lips read...just like the spell says.
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The languages that ARE available are generally specifically called out in a source book, say you can learn them with linguistics, and other than the CRB languages they show up in the additional resources document, called out as available.
Pathfinder Hand Sign is mentioned in descriptive text in Seekers of Secrets, I believe, but never showed up as an available language through linguistics. Hopefully it will in a future book.
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I was aiming towards the idea of RAW that it has to be officially stated to be obtained, which this spell does state that Sign Language exists out of Drow Sign and the snail one.
The fact that it exists purely isn't enough to take it, the additional resources need to say that it is possible to take it with Linguistics, and in that spell it is referring to any sign language, not a specific one, just as the monk vow in Ultimate Magic is.
Compare to the Technology guide, which added a new language Androffan, which the additional resources mention.
Misc.: Androffan may not be chosen as a known language. It may only be acquired through a Chronicle sheet
For PFS, only the languages in the Core Rulebook, Inner Sea World Guide, and Dragon Empires Gazetteer are legal (to be taken via linguistics), unless a boon says otherwise.
Here is a list of those languages
ISWG: Common (Taldane), Hallit, Kellish, Osiriani, Polyglot, Shadowtongue, Shoanti, Skald, Tien, Varisian, Vudrani, Ancient Osiriani, Azlanti, Cyclops, Jistka, Tekritanin, Thassilonian, Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Druidic (still druid only), Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Necril, Orc, Orvian, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon
DEG: Dtang, Hon-La, Hwan, Kelish, Minatan, Minkaian, Senzar, Taldane (aka Common), Tien, Vudrani, Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Druidic (still druid only), Elven, Giant, Goblin, Ignan, Infernal, Nagaji, Necril, Samsaran, Sylvan, Tengu, Terran, Undercommon
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For PFS, only the languages in the Core Rulebook, Inner Sea World Guide, and Dragon Empires Gazetteer are legal (to be taken via linguistics), unless a boon says otherwise.
Here is a list of those languages
** spoiler omitted ** If it's not in that spoiler, and it's not Read Lips, you cannot get it by Linguistics.
! There's actually a limit to how many languages you can learn! /tongue-in-cheek
Where does that rule show up, though? I don't recall having seen it - I was under the impression they go by an "all-inclusive-unless-specified-otherwise (such as that new language from the Technology Guide)" MO in the case of languages. I recall someone on here talking about how their character (a Tengu, naturally) spoke Sphinx, for example, and that's one language I don't see in your lineup.
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Makes note: Submit a quest proposal in which the players are sent to a former PFS library (where it all started) to assist Count Jeggare and achieve the next rank in the Grand Lodge (tier 5-6). As a library, silence must be maintained ("Shhh!") It will have three random encounters (1 for animals, one for swarm/ooze and one for RP) and be replayable. Maybe even have the Count run off to chase a centaur or something so as not to overshadow the PCs.
The chronicle can have 'learn Grand Lodge sign' as a bonus language (first chronicle free, subsequent at 1 PP).
Also the Grand Lodge Sign would be a good boon or campaign trait. :)
*finishes note, opens submissions document*
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For PFS, only the languages in the Core Rulebook, Inner Sea World Guide, and Dragon Empires Gazetteer are legal (to be taken via linguistics), unless a boon says otherwise.
Here is a list of those languages
** spoiler omitted ** If it's not in that spoiler, and it's not Read Lips, you cannot get it by Linguistics.! There's actually a limit to how many languages you can learn! /tongue-in-cheek
Where does that rule show up, though? I don't recall having seen it - I was under the impression they go by an "all-inclusive-unless-specified-otherwise (such as that new language from the Technology Guide)" MO in the case of languages. I recall someone on here talking about how their character (a Tengu, naturally) spoke Sphinx, for example, and that's one language I don't see in your lineup.
If you search the additional resources, for language, you will find
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer
Subdomains: Moon; Gods: All gods listed on pages 58-63; Languages: all languages on pages 49-51 may be learned via the Linguistics skill; Races: All human ethnicities are legal, humans begin play knowing all listed languages for their chosen ethnicity as racial languages. To create a kitsune, nagaji, or wayang character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation.
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Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World GuideDomains: Scalykind and Void domains; Equipment: all weapons, armor, and adventuring gear on pages 290–293 with the following restrictions: No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available. The Harrow deck may be used if it is an actual Harrow deck. Any alternative means to simulate the Harrow deck usage, such as a normal deck of cards or dice, is not legal; Feats: all feats on pages 284–289 except Eye of the Arclord, Fortune Teller, Hamatulatsu, Harrowed, and Shade of the Uskwood. For the Cypher Magic feat, replace the Scribe Scroll prerequisite with Spell Focus; Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234; Languages: all languages on page 251 may be learned via the Linguistics skill; Magic Items: goz mask, unguent of revivification, wayfinder, zoic fetish; Prestige Classes: Harrower, Hellknight, Low Templar; Note: to use the abilities from the Harrower prestige class, only a Harrow deck may be used. Any alternative means to simulate the Harrow deck, such as a normal deck of cards or dice, is not legal; Races: All human ethnicities are legal except Azlanti, humans begin play knowing all listed languages for their chosen ethnicity as racial languages; Spells: all spells on pages 294–297 except harrowing, extraplanetary teleport, and teleport trap
The only other mentions of languages in the additional resources are ethnicity saying they grant languages, and the Tech guide saying you cannot get Androffan without a boon.
As far as having a character that speaks Sphinx, it's possible with the Paizocon GM 2014 boon, as this trait gives the language, but unless I skipped over it on one of the three books with legal languages that is the only way to get Sphinx.
Sphinx is, of course, a legal language. There are Living Monoliths running around in PFS, and they all need to speak Sphinx.
This does raise an interesting question, obviously Sphinx needs to be legal for the Living Monolith, but what book includes the ability to learn the Sphinx language?
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Sphinx is, of course, a legal language. There are Living Monoliths running around in PFS, and they all need to speak Sphinx.
Actually, it does appear to inadvertently been removed from the legal list of languages. I had never noticed that, as it was always permitted due in large part to the requirement for Living Monoliths. This is obviously an oversight in cleaning up the language section, as they re-iterated the intent to have Living Monoliths when they legalized the updated version just a few months ago.
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There are several threads loke this.
in one of them the organizers of PFS have said yes to lip reading.
I cant find it at the moment but I remember looking into it because, of the Oracle curse deaf.
I hope this helps.
Lip Reading is actually called out in a FAQ. It would be easier to find digging through there.
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It's unlikely most GMs will say you can't do it.We all have a responsibility to follow the rules. If you don't like them, petition to get them changed. Don't encourage people to ignore them.
I don't disagree, but the rules don't say whether or not you can take it, and even seem to suggest it's likely fine.
For the sake of keeping the game fun, why would you rule against this?
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I don't disagree, but the rules don't say whether or not you can take it, and even seem to suggest it's likely fine.
That is a horrible way to make an argument in a game that is dictated by rules even more so when we are talking an organized play which relies upon Rules as Written as much as PFS does.
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I don't disagree, but the rules don't say whether or not you can take it, and even seem to suggest it's likely fine.That is a horrible way to make an argument in a game that is dictated by rules even more so when we are talking an organized play which relies upon Rules as Written as much as PFS does.
I used to think that way, until I brought up this thread about what is meant by run as written.
It's backed up by this quote from the PFS guide that suggests organised play isn't quite as strict as some of us think:
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com. What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right for your table during cases not covered in these sources.
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It's unlikely most GMs will say you can't do it.We all have a responsibility to follow the rules. If you don't like them, petition to get them changed. Don't encourage people to ignore them.I don't disagree, but the rules don't say whether or not you can take it, and even seem to suggest it's likely fine.
For the sake of keeping the game fun, why would you rule against this?
Because I'm Lawful Neutral. The rules don't say you can take it, so you can't take it. There is a list of legal options, and that's not on it. If you can't have fun without taking made up languages on your character, I'm sorry.
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I will put this out there, I do agree that there should be a legal option for sign language in PFS, but there is not.
Allowing a character to take a language that does not exist may lead to people thinking that if they can make up their own language then they can make up their own feat, why not the rules don't say that they cannot right?
Additionally, if people want a sign language, they want other players to take it too, so there needs to be a specific language, so that we don't have one person putting "Sign Language" another putting "Absolom Sign Language", and a third putting "Pathfinder Sign" and all claiming that they share the same language. And players are not the only ones that need to have access to the choice, enemies do as well, because there needs to be a chance that the message could be intercepted without relying upon magic or skills.
You may ask what is the harm in a character gaining sign language, and there would be no harm if the language was legal, but without it being legally allowed, a GM would be allowing home rules into PFS which is strictly not legal and would begin the journey down a slippery slope towards chaos.
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I don't think making up a feat is the same thing. Linguistics is a little unique here, though the idea here is the same as Craft, Profession or Perform.
The idea of adding "sign language", especially when they've explicitly allowed you to select "read lips", isn't unreasonable. That's why if I saw a player or three with it at my table, I'd allow it.
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I don't think making up a feat is the same thing. Linguistics is a little unique here, though the idea here is the same as Craft, Profession or Perform.
The idea of adding "sign language", especially when they've explicitly allowed you to select "read lips", isn't unreasonable. That's why if I saw a player or three with it at my table, I'd allow it.
There is a rather large difference between Linguistics (Sign Language) and Profession (CEO), the Linguistics is going to give a mechanical advantage if another player takes it, where as the Profession won't.
And as far as comparing creating a new language to a new feat, take Druidic Decoder into mind, a feat that allows you to learn a secret language, vs putting 1 rank into Linguistics to gain a language which might as well be secret because no NPC will ever have it.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I would love for there to be one universal sign language that any PC could sign up for. That would make things much simpler. Call it what you will: Absalom Sign Language, Pathfinder Sign, whatever.
Pathfinder sign is supposedly not a full language, but a code. Okay, codes come via linguistics... Perhaps we could learn the code via the skill in lieu of a full language.
If it is only a rudimentary pidgin, perhaps it could become a full-fledged creole like Tok Pisin, a trade pidgin that developed into a modern language once it finally acquired native speakers. (In other words, once it was taught to children, who are language-creation experts. Expose a trade pidgin to children and they will invent a grammar to make it work.)
I am also fine with adding a rule in the PFS FAQ that states that anytime PCs use the sign languge variant of a language, NPCs have a 1 in 5 (or whatever percentage that you want) chance to understand that language because they also have deaf relatives. Give the NPCs a chance to understand your sign no matter what scenario, and you take away all advantages of sign as a "secret" language. Instead, what you get is a chance for players to just get into the roleplay of Deaf culture.
I have worked with Deaf and Hard of Hearing people in my job... They are rightly proud of the beauty and eloquence of sign. I'd love the opportunity to incorporate it in a minor way in my game play.
Note, I am fully agreed that deaf characters should get read lips first. I would just like an option, any option, to play a signing character.
If Flail Snail became allowed in Additional Resources, I would buy Into the Darklands and then get a pot of alchemical slime for my character to use if that was the only way to play a character with sign language.
I don't want to break the rules. I don't want a special advantage. I'm just petitioning for a change.
Hmm
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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There was definitely mention of sign language or lip reading in a legal text somewhere. I'll try and find it. Two years ago or so Prof. Herp and I read it together when looking for character options for his oracle.
EDIT: It was that lip reading FAQ linked earlier! Hooray me for finding what was already posted!
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Hooray for Walter!
I agree BNW, PFS sign should be an option (provided you own the book--whatever book that might be). FWIW I wouldn't let it be a bonus language. That is: a character would learn it after they joined the Society, not while wearing diapers and chasing sehlats.
I fail to understand the jump from read lips to sign language though. Even though I can read lips fairly well, I still need the speakers to be speaking in English. Technically I speak German, & some conversational Spanish, but I would not be able to read their lips. Reading lips is a part of a known language, sign language is its own language. Several languages actually.
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Whether its legal or not, as a hearing impaired individual, I would allow it in my game. At PaizoCon this past year, I informed costumer service about my hearing condition and they arranged for me to have a seat towards the front so I could hear the various presentations. I have to tip hat to Paizo for this as I greatly appreciated it.
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Just because it's sometimes fun to throw fuel on the fire, what about using bluff checks to cover your sign language?
You can use Bluff to pass hidden messages to another character without others understanding your true meaning. The DC of this check is 15 for simple messages and 20 for complex messages. If you are successful, the target automatically understands you, assuming you are speaking in a language that it understands. If your check fails by 5 or more, you deliver the wrong message. Other creatures that hear the message can decipher the message by succeeding at an opposed Sense Motive check against your Bluff result.
It wouldn't be hard to get to +5 and succeed with simple messages when taking ten.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Just because it's sometimes fun to throw fuel on the fire, what about using bluff checks to cover your sign language?
It wouldn't be hard to get to +5 and succeed with simple messages when taking ten.You can use Bluff to pass hidden messages to another character without others understanding your true meaning. The DC of this check is 15 for simple messages and 20 for complex messages. If you are successful, the target automatically understands you, assuming you are speaking in a language that it understands. If your check fails by 5 or more, you deliver the wrong message. Other creatures that hear the message can decipher the message by succeeding at an opposed Sense Motive check against your Bluff result.
Okay, I am very, very amused. My intent is for this to be for an Oradin -- which will be starting with 2 levels of Paladin. So... In order to get sign language for my character, my Paladin would have to max out bluff.
If this will get me sign language that I can use in PFS, I will do it. It's a good thing that I was already planning for my goddess to be Shelyn. All those levels of bluff? Yeah, they're for theater acting and perform.
Hmm
PS For all of you reading this who agree that Pathfinder Sign should be added to the guide, could you please hit FAQ on this thread? Paizo has done an excellent job with including all sorts of diversity in their world. A lack of sign language seems a strange oversight.