Caws Rorec |
I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
Below is a list of the classes I will be letting the characters select from. What I am asking from the community is poking holes at possible issues and problems that might arise from limiting the choices to the following classes.
Alchemist
Barbarian
Brawler
Cavalier
Fighter
Gunslinger
Hunter
Investigator
Monk
Paladin (archetypes that replace spells only)
Ranger (archetypes that replace spells only)
Rogue
Slayer
Swashbuckler
Orfamay Quest |
What will the party do when faced with a curse, blindness, or level drain?
Scrolls. Lots of scrolls.
Embrace the magic item shop; you'll need it. There's nothing that a fighter can't face given enough scrolls of the appropriate type, but you're not going to be able to assume that the fighter can solve any problems unless he's got regular access to magic items.
Orfamay Quest |
I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
Below is a list of the classes I will be letting the characters select from. What I am asking from the community is poking holes at possible issues and problems that might arise from limiting the choices to the following classes.
Alchemist
By the way, the alchemist is effectively a caster. I suspect he'll end up playing the role of a party wizard.
Mysterious Stranger |
Alchemist and Investigators get extracts which are the same as spells. If you want no magic you should also remove these classes. The hunter also gets druid spells so should also be removed. Monks and spell less paladins have significant magical abilities. If you allow those classes chances are that they will become the new magic users.
The biggest problem is going to be healing. Keep in mind that healing is more than just HP. Condition removal is pretty important and without magic it is impossible. Also without magic who is creating the magic items. The game assumes that characters will be appropriately equipped for their level. If there are no magic items besides potions you are going to have to adjust everything.
What exactly are you trying to do in this game? It is pretty hard to give any advice without knowing that.
Wiggz |
I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
Below is a list of the classes I will be letting the characters select from. What I am asking from the community is poking holes at possible issues and problems that might arise from limiting the choices to the following classes.
Alchemist
Barbarian
Brawler
Cavalier
Fighter
Gunslinger
Hunter
Investigator
Monk
Paladin (archetypes that replace spells only)
Ranger (archetypes that replace spells only)
Rogue
Slayer
Swashbuckler
We once ran a game where the only full casters were rare villains and magic items were incredibly scarce. It made for a VERY different experience, but not at all an unpleasant one once you altered your expectations a bit. For some groups, this sort of 'grittier' game ends up being more appealing.
Of course, we DID have partials casters, so our experience would have varied from yours a bit. The biggest difference was 1) players had to focus more on what they could DO than what they could BUY and 2) there were no 're-set buttons' or quick-fixes like Heal or Teleport. Logistics and Tactics both had to be considered very differently.
You may want to consider how you handle hit points and healing (there are some good alternative options out there), and you should think about the potential foes your group may face - don't give them a problem only magic can solve or an opponent only magic can defeat.
Mysterious Stranger |
Ciaran Barnes wrote:What will the party do when faced with a curse, blindness, or level drain?Scrolls. Lots of scrolls.
Embrace the magic item shop; you'll need it. There's nothing that a fighter can't face given enough scrolls of the appropriate type, but you're not going to be able to assume that the fighter can solve any problems unless he's got regular access to magic items.
If the world does not have spell casters there is no one to create the scrolls. The same is true for any magic items. This means that UMD does not exist. Without magic some skills will simply not be developed.
Caws Rorec |
The idea behind the game is science over magic.
I understand that having no magic game in a game is almost impossible in terms of challenges by level being heavily influenced by wealth by level.
I want there to be magic (low magic) but not immediately accessible by the starting the party.
In terms of healing (status removals) I was thinking of re-fluffing some clerical spells etc treatments etc in bigger towns, so the party are not up blank creek without a paddle.
Thank you about the hunter, I completely forgot they gained druid spells.
The main goal as mentioned (and re-iterated) is the idea that magic did not develop the world, but science, but I want the world to be a fantasy world just where the choice was science over magic even though magic still exists.
Aaron Whitley |
Sounds like fun! I presume you are not running a published adventure? If you are then you will want to be very careful since most modules assume the presence of magic. Read the module over thoroughly and keep on an eye on things like pace of encounters, access to replenish-able resources, monsters/hazards that can only be countered by magic. If the encounters are clustered together or players won't be able to get to town to replenish consumables then you will need to account for the lack of cleric and lack of resources.
Caws Rorec |
I am planning on doing my own thing, published adventures while great fun would have to be greatly adapted.
I have done this in the past, but this is for an upcoming campaign with some new players / newish player.
The players want to play in a large scale city running a Private Investigator like business where they can take on cases they find intriguing.
The idea is to be sand box like, but with an overarching plot that will develop based on the cases they solve or do not solve of course.
What would be a reasonable (basically less inane way) of replacing say a wand of cure light wounds at earlier levels? I am trying to avoid dropping items basically called red potions a le diablo or refillable doses of healing drugs aka charges = doses.
*Thanks Imbicatus you posted as I was replying
LazarX |
I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
It's really very simple, your party has to meet it's challenges and either survive or die. If it survives it's challenge, it may need to recover before facing it's next serious one.
So you may have to do things like space your encounters, you will have to figure out how recovery is going to work, and of course you can't go by the standard fighter type, arcane type, skill type, healer type configuration in designing your encounters.
Gnomezrule |
Good luck. I like games like this. In the ones I have played there were still options to be casters but they were one in 10k not one in 4.
For healing you might want to consider 10% of HP actual wounds. Meaning if the fighter has 10 hp he is worn down, discouraged and out matched but only takes damage needing to be healed when he loses his last HP. The percentage could be higher but it means that when the fight is over after a minute or two you are mostly ready to go again other than the actual wound.
Aaron Whitley |
The idea behind the game is science over magic.
I understand that having no magic game in a game is almost impossible in terms of challenges by level being heavily influenced by wealth by level.
I want there to be magic (low magic) but not immediately accessible by the starting the party.
In terms of healing (status removals) I was thinking of re-fluffing some clerical spells etc treatments etc in bigger towns, so the party are not up blank creek without a paddle.
Thank you about the hunter, I completely forgot they gained druid spells.
The main goal as mentioned (and re-iterated) is the idea that magic did not develop the world, but science, but I want the world to be a fantasy world just where the choice was science over magic even though magic still exists.
With that in mind I would take a look at the list of minor and medium potions and see what you can re-skin/re-use as alchemical items. Healing potions, potions of bull strength, potions of endure elements, and some others make for great advanced alchemical items. I've done something similar in the past and what I do is just add 5 to a base DC of 20 for each level of the spell. So potions of cure light wounds would be a DC 25 to craft and potions of bull strength would be DC30. It keeps them from being too easy to craft at the early levels but useful at higher levels. It also gives a player who invests in Craft: Alchemy an actual use for the skill.
Aaron Whitley |
I am planning on doing my own thing, published adventures while great fun would have to be greatly adapted.
I have done this in the past, but this is for an upcoming campaign with some new players / newish player.
The players want to play in a large scale city running a Private Investigator like business where they can take on cases they find intriguing.
The idea is to be sand box like, but with an overarching plot that will develop based on the cases they solve or do not solve of course.
What would be a reasonable (basically less inane way) of replacing say a wand of cure light wounds at earlier levels? I am trying to avoid dropping items basically called red potions a le diablo or refillable doses of healing drugs aka charges = doses.
*Thanks Imbicatus you posted as I was replying
How advanced is the technology? My first thought was to replace wands of cure light wounds with a nanite injections. Tiny little robots injected into the body that repair things but have a short life span.
If you don't want to go that kind of crazy you could instead go with a different kind, symbiotes! Perhaps the residents of this particular planet have learned to harvest living organisms that, when put in contact with flesh, bond and meld with the host. Need to heal that giant gash in your side? Poor some Plantek Symbiotic Goo on and let it fill in the holes and bond with you.
Aaron Whitley |
Caws Rorec wrote:I am planning on doing my own thing, published adventures while great fun would have to be greatly adapted.
I have done this in the past, but this is for an upcoming campaign with some new players / newish player.
The players want to play in a large scale city running a Private Investigator like business where they can take on cases they find intriguing.
The idea is to be sand box like, but with an overarching plot that will develop based on the cases they solve or do not solve of course.
What would be a reasonable (basically less inane way) of replacing say a wand of cure light wounds at earlier levels? I am trying to avoid dropping items basically called red potions a le diablo or refillable doses of healing drugs aka charges = doses.
*Thanks Imbicatus you posted as I was replying
How advanced is the technology? My first thought was to replace wands of cure light wounds with a nanite injections. Tiny little robots injected into the body that repair things but have a short life span.
If you don't want to go that kind of crazy you could instead go with a different kind, symbiotes! Perhaps the residents of this particular planet have learned to harvest living organisms that, when put in contact with flesh, bond and meld with the host. Need to heal that giant gash in your side? Poor some Plantek Symbiotic Goo on and let it fill in the holes and bond with you.
Symbiotes, has my brain going. Having a hard time understanding the native? Put a babblefish in your ear. Poison gas? Put the green face hugger on. Need to see in the dark? Put the Clearvision Jellyfish over your eyes. Obviously you can get pretty crazy.
Under A Bleeding Sun |
The homebrew I've been working on for several years is a low magic game steampunk game, not a no magic game, but magical healing got severely nerfed. I replaced them with surgeries:
You cannot usually perform surgery on yourself. You will need to find a qualified surgeon with a lab, or at least a field kit. The DC of all checks are increased by 5 if using Surgeon’s Kit over a full medical facility.
The DC of a surgery check is 10+ the minimum caster level required to cast that spell. So a third level spell surgery has a DC of 15. The cost of a surgery is double the cost that the spell would usually cost to pay someone to cast. If performing the surgery on a friend you can reduce the cost to only double any expensive components, though if the repair is done in the field with a surgeons kit, it also takes a number of charges from the bag equal to the level of the spell it mirrors.
The DC to install an implant is equivalent to the DC of making it. The cost to have an implant installed is equal to the highest involved DCx20.
Getting a surgery is not without it risks. If you fail by 4 or less you fail to perform the surgery but nothing bad happens. If you fail by 5 or more something went wrong. What is up to the gms discretion and the type of surgery being performed. You may not take 10 on a surgery.
In general, you want to spend DC of surgery/5 in days of rest. You may be able to perform light or partial downtime activities(depending on how you’re feeling), but not full actions. If you fail to do so you need to make a DC = to the difficulty of the surgery. If you fail you gain a negative status effect (varies based on surgery) that lasts for 1d4 weeks +1 week for every point you failed by. For every 5 DC the surgeon beats the check by, reduce the amount of bed rest needed by 1 week (to a minimum of 1 day).
And for in the field there are surgeons kits. It costs 1000 GP's in my campaign.
And I added these feats:
You are exceptionally skilled at field patches and getting people on their feet.
Prerequisite: Heal 1 rank
Benefit: You gain a + 2 to all heal checks when using a healers kit or surgeons kit. You may use a surgeons kit to restore health to your allies. You may spend a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity and use one charge from your surgeons kit to make a dc 11 heal check. If successful you restore 1d8 + your ranks in heal (max 5) to a target. If you have at least 3 ranks in heal the DC goes to 13 and this functions as cure moderate wounds using your ranks in heal as your caster level. This progress continues all the way through cure critical wounds.
You are stat at field work.
Prerequisite: Medic, Heal 3 ranks
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 to all heal checks. You may draw a surgeons kit or healers kit as part of movement. You may administer your Medic healing as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Prerequisites: Medic, Stat, Heal 9 ranks
Benefit: As a standard action you may make a DC 19 heal check to administer the benefits of a cure light wounds mass to a number of patients equal to your ranks in heal, as long as you can reach them with a single move action, and no target is farther than 30 feet apart. You use you ranks in heal as your caster level. At 11 ranks with a dc 21 heal check you may administer cure moderate wounds mass in the same way. This continues through cure critical wounds mass. Each patient administered uses a charge from a surgeons kit, but you may burn through multiple field kits as part of the action, it does not require additional actions to pull out additional kits. You do not provoke aoo’s for providing the healing, though your movement through threatened squares provokes as normal.
This makes healing significantly more expensive in the early game but a skilled healer eventually gets the cost down to the price of a wand of CLW.
The big thing to remember IMO is the CR system is going to be become a pretty bad judge for what your party can handle. At higher levels, without magic, what your party can handle is much less than what they normally could.
And I'd highly recommend using penetration rating over touch ac for firearms, otherwise you'll have a party of alchemist and gunslingers.
I also have a lot of "tech" gear in my homebrew, so may be worth it for you to check it out. My tech is pretty much the opposite direction as Paizo went though: Domcur. It's not 100% complete, but outside explosives and the engineer class (which I'm completely reworking) its like 95% or more complete.
DrDeth |
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Healing is going to be a problem. Unless the alchemist heals but the sort of instantaneous nature of CLW is a stretch as "science."
We had a game without a healer once. It took us one month of game time and five nites to travel what should have been 3 days and a hor. We had a random encounter, so we had to stop and heal, while resting attacked again.
This is so freaken BORING that it's just bad DMing to subject players to it. Now, if you allow the Paladins to channel and LoH, and the Alchemist to heal, you might be OK. I suggest giving everyone the rapid healing feat for free.
But conditions, and ability drain will cripple the party for weeks, if not forever. Blindness will be permanent. You're gonna end up with a bunch of half-dead cripples, and that will be no fun.
And unless you have magic items, monsters with DR will simply TPK the party, and so will swarms- altho the alchemist might be able to take those down while the rest of the party run screaming.
Kolokotroni |
The single bigest problem is dealing with negative conditions. You can come up with house rules for hit points (look around for evil lincolns stamina vs deadly damage rules) that allow relatively easy recovery of hp without magic. But curses, deseases, poisons and especially ability damage will be crippling without the ability to recover from it quickly.
Mind you, if this is really a science over magic thing, then the technology guide could be invaluable. There is plenty of sufficiently advanced technology in there that can solve the problems that would normally be dealt with via magic. Just keep in mind the costs of those items are deliberately inflated to their in game value for game world reasons in golarion (its a setting book, not a core line rulebook). Just like guns, in a world where these things are common the costs should be significantly reduced.
In addition to this, I'd recommend giving your players a bit of something extra. A low magic/low magic item party will be considerably weaker then a 'standard' adventure party who generally have a walking miracle (cleric) and a person with mastery of time and space (wizard) along for the ride.
I have a magic item replacement ruleset I can share if you are interest. It replaces big six magic items, and then also grands a rogue genius games (3rd party publisher) style archetype (they created something called archetypes before the apg came out and have as of yet not renamed them, where every class has a set suite of abilities they can trade for any of the archetypes) without having to trade out the usual abilities from their class. This replaces the vast majority of magic item based wealth the group would normally get.
The archetypes appear in 4 archetype products. Divine and arcane are obviously not of use. But the archer and martial archetypes are good fits with a few exceptions (some have some magic in them so you will probably want to look through them). Even if you dont want to use magic item rules, give the players one of these archetypes for free anyway, it will help even out the loss of magic in the group. Of particular interest is the Alchemical Archer archetype, which allows a player to basically be batman with alchemical items (and the dcs of these items scale with the players ability scores and level).
In addition Rogue genius games has the anarchonistic adventures classes. These are all base classes meant to represent modern characters out of time. And each one comes with a bunch of genius style archetypes. Of particular use is the investigator. Many of those archetypes will be very well suited for a character in your campaign. Again even if you dont want to use the base classes themselves, the archetypes are invaluable. Theres even one that could if the right choices are made really help out in healing area by advancing the use of the mundane treat injury skill.
So basically of particular importants are the alchemical archer which will allow a non-magical character to in some ways tackle the things an arcane caster will deal with (battlefield control, debuffing, and problem solving), particularly if you include the items from the new alchemy manual and the idea of swift alchemy. There is alot of utility in poisons and drugs that can be crafted relatively quickly, in addition to the alchemical weapons.
The investigator's archetypes (including one made to model sherlock holms) should help your characters perform well in a PI sort of adventure, and the medical archetype would allow an expansion of what treat injury does, making some problems at least temporarily solvable via mundane means.
revaar |
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Also, just to note: You don't HAVE to be caster to craft magic items. It just takes more effort.
Mysterious Stranger |
Also, just to note: You don't HAVE to be caster to craft magic items. It just takes more effort.
If magic never developed even the idea of magic items would not be there. I don’t see how you are going to have scrolls, wands and staves in a world of science. In a world where everyone is deaf people will not learn to sing.
Ciaran Barnes |
Ciaran Barnes wrote:What will the party do when faced with a curse, blindness, or level drain?Scrolls. Lots of scrolls.
Embrace the magic item shop; you'll need it. There's nothing that a fighter can't face given enough scrolls of the appropriate type, but you're not going to be able to assume that the fighter can solve any problems unless he's got regular access to magic items.
As revaar points out, there is the Master Craftsman feat. However, this is only good for magical weapons, armor, and wondrous items. The alchemist can create a limited selection of potions, but scrolls are impossible without house rules.
LazarX |
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In short, OP put yourself into your players shoes, and see if you've provided ample means for your players to go from one episode to the next.
What many DMs seem to forget is that when you take out a major pillar of the game, there's a lot that can come crashing down.
Caws Rorec |
I honestly have very little experience outside of d and d and pathfinder.
I have played in some very short lived L5R games as well as some even shorter lived Hunter games.
I also enjoy pathfinder.
The emphasis again would be on a world with magic but that focuses (focused) more on science.
I am removing the option for casters from the get go, but would most likely grant access if the player develops a good idea or if it comes up in game play, player spends time finding books of the occult or making deals with the devil etc (tropes off the top of my head)
Caws Rorec |
What if you turn magic into a closely guarded secret.
Say a corporation who churns out magic items as products? Could lead to some dark secrets, say ex employees seem to not exist... but would also leave magic as an existing thing, but with very little access outside of working for said company and even then nobody seems to know anyone who works the company but everyone has something from the company.
Kolokotroni |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if you turn magic into a closely guarded secret.
Say a corporation who churns out magic items as products? Could lead to some dark secrets, say ex employees seem to not exist... but would also leave magic as an existing thing, but with very little access outside of working for said company and even then nobody seems to know anyone who works the company but everyone has something from the company.
The issue isnt with where the magic comes from its with access. The game assumes a large amount of magic available to player pretty much openly. If players have to sell their souls for access or give up perceived valuable resources, or even give up autonomy of their characters for the sake of gaining something they actually need to play the game, there is going to be resentment.
Saying oh there is magic, you just will have a difficulty getting access to it, wont make the player who just got blinded and cant do anything about it any happier. Saying oh if you spend 3 sessions doing a quest for this evil organization you could get access to magic weapons wont make the lawful good cavalier feel better about not being able to hurt the high ac/high DR/magic monster without a magic sword.
If you want to create a non-magical modern or steam punk world thats cool, but commit to it and realize you are going to have to add lots of things to the game to make it work as expected.
Greylurker |
Switch to Vigor/Wounds for taking damage. Make Vigor quickly replenishable through resting and such, that mitigates the need for healing spells.
You will need to rejigger some CRs for monsters, particularly those with damage reduction or innate spellcasting.
Consider Blessings. Either permanent or temporary that can take the place of some of the core items.
EX: "Archeangel Micheal bestows his blessing upon the group, granting them a +2 Enhancement bonus to attack and damage."
High tech Vibro sword could be the same as +3 weapon
You might want to look at the Amethest setting, it is a tech vs. magic setting world. They set it up so that magic interferrs with electronics. The more magic in an area the less complex tech works.
BlackOuroboros |
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Frankly, your really trying to stick a square peg through a round hole here. Pathfinder is simply designed to have magic in it; it is a vital component to gameplay. If you want to play a magic-less game in the D20 family I recommend looking up a system called Iron Heroes.
EDIT: This is what I get for writing a reply after only skimming the thread. I second DrDeth's sentiment.
Gnomezrule |
Frankly, your really trying to stick a square peg through a round hole here. Pathfinder is simply designed to have magic in it; it is a vital component to gameplay. If you want to play a magic-less game in the D20 family I recommend looking up a system a system called Iron Heroes.
Well other games cost money. Often. So if I was trying to do this I would stick with 1- The rules I know. 2- Rules that I would say are easy to adapt considering there are already fun things like a wound system, armor as DR out there. 3- Not spending more money. 4- The OP already pointed out that its not a magic free game or a magic less game just that casters are rare and not available for the PCs.
Honestly after you deal with changes to creatures that have DR, and how to removed conditions how hard is it going to be really.
Did I mention saving money?
Undone |
I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
Below is a list of the classes I will be letting the characters select from. What I am asking from the community is poking holes at possible issues and problems that might arise from limiting the choices to the following classes.
So when you reach a monster with ability drain, level drain, permanent status effects (Blindness, deafness).
Basically such a game can't make it to 6th level.
revaar |
If you are looking to keep super low magic, I'd also suggest restricting Paladin as well. Some of the basic abilities that Paladins get, i.e. laying on hands, channel energy, mercies, etc, are very magical, and while they do have 2 archetypes that replace spell casting(Stonelord and Warrior of the Holy Light), those two archetypes also do things that are very magical (Earth elemental companion, turning into a living stone, the various light auras that the Holy Light gives).
Suthainn |
Caws Rorec wrote:I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
Below is a list of the classes I will be letting the characters select from. What I am asking from the community is poking holes at possible issues and problems that might arise from limiting the choices to the following classes.
So when you reach a monster with ability drain, level drain, permanent status effects (Blindness, deafness).
Basically such a game can't make it to 6th level.
I'm with Gnomezrule on this, if you're going to the trouble of changing all the other things it's little more effort to change the conditions and effects such as these. Perhaps they're short lived enough to affect you during the fight and make it tougher but they wear off after a short duration (i.e.; Jacks blindness in Big Trouble in Little China).
I suspect though that the technology guide has enough answers to allow your game to go well beyond 6th level or any other limit, in a world with creatures that inflict conditions and no magic to cure them people will have developed scientific cures to deal with these ailments.
Vincent Takeda |
Might be good to come up with a short bullet list of spells or effects that are absolutely necessary to the way the 'pathfinder engine' works, then re-theme and reskin them for alchemists. Some sort of blastoplasty liquid skin healing salve blah blah blah... that kind of thing. A cure potion isnt 'magical'... its a 'salve with hyperhealing properties'...
Aaron Whitley |
Caws Rorec wrote:I am planning a game, which will only allow classes that do not have access to magic or at least it is founded in a way that does not sound like magic.
Below is a list of the classes I will be letting the characters select from. What I am asking from the community is poking holes at possible issues and problems that might arise from limiting the choices to the following classes.
So when you reach a monster with ability drain, level drain, permanent status effects (Blindness, deafness).
Basically such a game can't make it to 6th level.
It's not like he is using an adventure path or published adventure. He is making up his own stuff so that means, if he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to use it. No reason to use all of those monsters unless he wants a really tough fight on his hands. With the type of game he described he could probably get through most of the game using just humanoids and classes.
There is more to this game than killing monsters.
Bob Bob Bob |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can't tell from what's been posted so far, but is the goal "no magic" or "nothing flavored as magic"? Because the second one is so very simple.
Drop all spontaneous casters. Ban Eschew Materials. You know all the horrible jokes in material components? Make them real. Lightning Bolt has a material component of a glass rod and fur. You're making static electricity. Fireball has the components of gunpowder. Change "preparing spells" to "building small devices using the material components". "Casting spells" becomes "activating my prepared device" (which promptly breaks it). The standard action can be to retrieve and activate the device. Things that last more than one round can have a small power source. Things that take more than one round have to be charged longer. Congrats, your wizards are now physicists. For clerics you'll probably want to add material components, so cure X wounds requires alcohol and stitches, cure blindness requires eyedrops, restoration requires a splint, etc. Congrats, now they're called doctors.