some stealth caster Q;s


Rules Questions


a cleric with hide in plain sight (either a homebrew domain OR 1 dip shadow dancer OR hellcat's stealth feat )

1) is HIPS an action? which?

2) do i have to move? or can stand in 1 place, and....vanish

3) if i am casting, without silent spell (which is btw an amazing feat for this build! ) - can opponent pin point me auto ? or he need a check as all he know is "a sound is in that direction" without pin point.

4) what's the check ? Vs stealth ? or DC 0 (people talking).

5) do i flank if opponent cant see? (technically i can stank right behind it...)
it opens up load of stuff - like summoning while in the shadows - or silent spell to buff party while still hiding.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
666bender wrote:

a cleric with hide in plain sight (either a homebrew domain OR 1 dip shadow dancer OR hellcat's stealth feat )

1) is HIPS an action? which?

2) do i have to move? or can stand in 1 place, and....vanish

3) if i am casting, without silent spell (which is btw an amazing feat for this build! ) - can opponent pin point me auto ? or he need a check as all he know is "a sound is in that direction" without pin point.

4) what's the check ? Vs stealth ? or DC 0 (people talking).

5) do i flank if opponent cant see? (technically i can stank right behind it...)
it opens up load of stuff - like summoning while in the shadows - or silent spell to buff party while still hiding.

I think your Starting point would be to look at HIPS from the perspective of a shadowdancer or assassin:

"an assassin can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow."

As such I think its clear that using HIPS is just a special form of using stealth to hide - normally you'd need to have some form of cover to use stealth, but with HIPS you can use stealth provided you are within 10 feet of shadow.

Looking at the rules on using stealth:

"if people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

And

"Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

1. Based on those sections, I think HIPS is part of a move action if you move to a position within 10 feet of shadow and then hide. If you are already standing still, then I think its not an action, unless you have been observed already and are attempting to hide whilst standing still, in that case, you'd have to use bluff to distract your observers and the use of bluff would be a standard action if your GM feels the distraction is similar to a feint, otherwise its a full round action (or longer) depending on how your GM decides to treat the distraction you attempt.

2. I think that also answers the stand in one place and vanish - HIPS is not "invisibility" it simply allows you to use stealth without cover - so you'd have to use bluff as referred to above.

3. for your third question, I'd treat the spell casting similarly to sniping: "If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."

4. vs stealth would be my interpretation - HIPS is about using stealth, so if you speak, I think the person who is in range to hear would use their perception against your stealth with the penalty referred to above. Again, i think its important to point out that HIPS is NOT invisibility.

5. I suppose you would flank if you were right next to the target using HIPS successfully as per above.

Hope that helps


Timothy Ferdinand wrote:
666bender wrote:

a cleric with hide in plain sight (either a homebrew domain OR 1 dip shadow dancer OR hellcat's stealth feat )

1) is HIPS an action? which?

2) do i have to move? or can stand in 1 place, and....vanish

3) if i am casting, without silent spell (which is btw an amazing feat for this build! ) - can opponent pin point me auto ? or he need a check as all he know is "a sound is in that direction" without pin point.

4) what's the check ? Vs stealth ? or DC 0 (people talking).

5) do i flank if opponent cant see? (technically i can stank right behind it...)
it opens up load of stuff - like summoning while in the shadows - or silent spell to buff party while still hiding.

I think your Starting point would be to look at HIPS from the perspective of a shadowdancer or assassin:

"an assassin can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow."

As such I think its clear that using HIPS is just a special form of using stealth to hide - normally you'd need to have some form of cover to use stealth, but with HIPS you can use stealth provided you are within 10 feet of shadow.

Looking at the rules on using stealth:

"if people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

And

"Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged...

wow, thanks.

how about 5' step? it's enough for hiding?

Grand Lodge

Relevant threads here, and here.


5) Being hidden or invisible has no effect on whether you are flanking or not. Flanking is a specific term that refers to having an ally on the opposite side of your foe (with the customary caveat 'usually').

Whether you would deny your opponent their dex bonus to AC would depend on the situation and your GM.


666bender wrote:
1) is HIPS an action? which?

HiPS is not an action, it only modifies the use of Stealth. So the action cost will come from using Stealth. The movement requirements for Stealth are:

PRD/CRB/Skill Descriptions/Stealth wrote:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Note it says you may make a Stealth check as part of a movement, that is not the same as a Move Action. A 5' step is considered a movement.

That said, the first sentence is, "usually none." People interpret this differently but I take that to mean that Stealth doesn't ALWAYS require any movement at all. For instance: If you hear someone at the door and you are already crouched behind a desk or in some other area where you qualify for Stealth, I would not make you move just so you could use Stealth in that situation. However, in situations where someone already has Line of Sight to you, I would make you move at least a little before attempting Stealth. Keeping in mind that a 5' step is all that is required for movement.

666bender wrote:
2) do i have to move? or can stand in 1 place, and....vanish

Answered in my reply to question 1. It depends on the situation.

666bender wrote:
3) if i am casting, without silent spell (which is btw an amazing feat for this build! ) - can opponent pin point me auto ? or he need a check as all he know is "a sound is in that direction" without pin point.

As far as I know, you cannot utter the verbal component of a spell Stealthily without some other special ability. The "Magic" section of the core rulebook explains verbal components like this:

PRD/CRB/Magic/Components wrote:
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

I just don't see that meshing with a whisper, unless there is some other ability that allows it.

666bender wrote:
4) what's the check ? Vs stealth ? or DC 0 (people talking).

I would go with DC 0 (people talking) and a +1 to the DC for every 10' between the caster and potential observer. And possibly a +2 or +5 to the DC for unfavorable or terrible circumstances if there is a battle going on and that sound is the only way someone could tell where you are.

Also keep in mind you can always cast your spell as a standard action then use a 5' step or a move action to regain the cover of Stealth.

666bender wrote:
5) do i flank if opponent cant see? (technically i can stank right behind it...)

Yes. You flank when the opponent can't see you. You even flank if they don't know you're there.

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