Gatorflash |
Just out of curiosity, lets say you have a pesky fighter that is really hard to deal with on the battlefield. Really high AC, hard for the enemies to hit most of the time. What are your favorite ways of knocking these players down a notch? For example, I love the "heat metal" spell. Works great on getting those fighters to shed the full plate.
kinevon |
I think this is the wrong forum for this, as this is for PFS GM discussion, not general PF discussion, or advice.
Note: On the fighter, depending on the rest of his build, if he concentrates on AC, then there is a chance that ignoring him is the best short-term option, as he is a turtle but not a snapping turtle. If he can't do significant damage, come back to him after you deal with the squishies.
FLite |
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I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the role of the GM. First of all, your job is not to knock people down a peg, it is to provide them with fun evening of gaming.
Some nights, that will involve them just walking through everything.
Other nights, they are gonna get slaugtered.
And eventually, they will run into a nuetral caster with dominate person, and everyone will start praying.
For pure hilarity though, nothing beats a one on one fight between two holy vindicators.
Also, heat metal? really? 8d4 that takes 6 rounds to kick in. I'll keep my armor, thanks. Most fights are over in three rounds or so, and out of combat healing is plentiful. Great spell at low levels, not really relevant at higher.
Mahtobedis |
I'm with kinevon. I think this is more suited for the advice forum.
That being said shocking grasp is a good low level thing for enemies to throw at people with lots of armor.
Another thing to try if you cant hit the AC is to consider going for the CMD.
You do have to be really careful when developing tactics that will counter/incapacitate a player character. Some players, like myself, are ok being taken out of fight in the first or second round (by being dropped or made useless) and can participate vicariously. Some players will not have fun if their character plan doesn't go off too often, and some players will whine every session no matter what you do.
Unfortunately one of the latter of these is a home game I am in.
Silbeg |
+1
I agree fully with kinevon, that if the guy has a very high AC, but no real threatening attack, then once someone has observed he is unhittable you avoid him. Bolding, to stress that you should at least give the guy a chance to bask in his AC advantage. Now, if the party has been observed, then perhaps you can do it earlier...
Example:
Tanky McTank is all armored up, with full plate, tower shield, etc., but only has a military pick to back it up. Behind him is Caster McSquishy, a wizard with an AC of 12, and spells that will destroy the bad guys.
So, the obvious tactic (which many PCs would take as well), would be to avoid the armored meat shield, and go directly for the caster. Especially if he doesn't hit very hard. Even more especially if he is attacking defensively.
Of course, Suggestion (or other mind affecting spells) are always a good call, too ("You don't wanna be hit, so go total defense!"]
DemonSlayer666 |
Use attacks that ignore AC: Spells, incorporeal attacks, etc.
Get rid of the armor with sunder, or have a thief steal them. (this is pretty drastic though, so be careful)
Attack at night when he's not in armor, or use an environment where you can't wear heavier armor. Make obstacles that require Str and Dex based skills.
Keep him occupied with minions, and use flanking.
Take away the enhancement bonuses with Antimagic aura.
Grappling also bypasses AC, and can do damage. (my favorite)
Honestly, if he can't be hit by your creature's first attack (less than 40% of the time), then you should bump them up a bit.
Under A Bleeding Sun |
As another poster has said, high ac builds often (but not always) suffer from lack of being a threat, with zen archers and magus being the two biggest exceptions I know of.
For instance I had a friend who wanted to play a tank. He built a crazy Aldori Sword lord build and built his AC to like 60 something. He had bad will saves, and his offense was poor. He found out the hard way when an enemy can't hit you AND you don't threaten it the enemies just break around you. He ended up making a terrible tank and switched the pc out later because he couldn't hurt things, and really wasn't fulfilling his role as tank either as most enemies just said whatever hot me for 10 damage (if he even hit) as I break on you.
blahpers |
I wonder how things would play out if the game had the rule that if you were struck by an attack of opportunity when attempting to leave a threatened square, your movement ended (similarly to when you fail your Acrobatics check to leave a threatened square).
I suppose it'd be pretty silly if the mover was, e.g., a dragon being held back by an attack of opportunity from a halfling. This would need some work.
Ascalaphus |
I think for the most part the AoO system does its job - stop people from moving around enemies and cavorting and casting spells in front of them with total impunity. Sometimes people expect too much from AoOs; they start expecting to actually get to make them regularly. I think AoOs are kinda like a fine for bad parking/speeding; people can decide to just not do that.
A halfling stopping a dragon would be cool. But I think it's okay for THAT to actually cost something, at least a feat or so.
Bob Bob Bob |
I wonder how things would play out if the game had the rule that if you were struck by an attack of opportunity when attempting to leave a threatened square, your movement ended (similarly to when you fail your Acrobatics check to leave a threatened square).
I suppose it'd be pretty silly if the mover was, e.g., a dragon being held back by an attack of opportunity from a halfling. This would need some work.
That's what Stand Still is supposed to do, if it could just suck less.
And you don't lose movement if you fail your Acrobatics, you just provoke. Your movement stops if you try to move through someone's square and fail.
Kimera757 |
Just out of curiosity, lets say you have a pesky fighter that is really hard to deal with on the battlefield. Really high AC, hard for the enemies to hit most of the time. What are your favorite ways of knocking these players down a notch? For example, I love the "heat metal" spell. Works great on getting those fighters to shed the full plate.
Taking off plate takes time. The fighter might decide to absorb the damage and kill whoever cast that spell on them instead. (I saw a PC fighter do that to an NPC mage who using Fire Shield. The fighter just absorbed the damage. Dead mage. That's why my wizard PC used Mirror Image instead.)
The OP did seem to be acting like a "killer DM" but we don't know that for sure. In any event, every PC has large weaknesses that can be exploited, except maybe monks (where their weakness is their lack of offense). Creative ways of taking advantage of those weaknesses is okay, but... there's better spells to cast than Heat Metal, perhaps a spell that could take out any kind of foe you run into. Heat metal is kind of useless if your opponent is a wizard using a staff.
kinevon |
Actually, now that I think on it, an amusing tactic, for a prepared enemy who had researched the party, would be to cast a Widened grease in the Fighter's area, preferably so that he has to try walking through at least one square of the grease, no matter which way he goes, in order to get out. Acrobatics check? Sheeya, right.
If the caster can frontload it right, black tentacles.for the win, but it has to have a high enough CMB to have a chance to catch the fighter, who should have a fairly good CMD, in it.
And, of course, simple auto-hit stuff, like a Dazing or Toppling magic missile.
Is his AC high because he is in heavy armor, or because he has a high Dex?
wraithstrike |
Just out of curiosity, lets say you have a pesky fighter that is really hard to deal with on the battlefield. Really high AC, hard for the enemies to hit most of the time. What are your favorite ways of knocking these players down a notch? For example, I love the "heat metal" spell. Works great on getting those fighters to shed the full plate.
I am not taking my armor off mid combat. I am sure that heated suit of armor is less deadly than losing 5 or 6 AC, and taking the time to remove the armor mid-fight.
Of course someone might call that bad RP, but since your character knows what might happen without armor I would have to disagree.
PS: I also prefer for my players to optimize so I don't have to tone things down.
blahpers |
blahpers wrote:I wonder how things would play out if the game had the rule that if you were struck by an attack of opportunity when attempting to leave a threatened square, your movement ended (similarly to when you fail your Acrobatics check to leave a threatened square).
I suppose it'd be pretty silly if the mover was, e.g., a dragon being held back by an attack of opportunity from a halfling. This would need some work.
That's what Stand Still is supposed to do, if it could just suck less.
And you don't lose movement if you fail your Acrobatics, you just provoke. Your movement stops if you try to move through someone's square and fail.
I always mess that up. : / And yeah, Stand Still is . . . okay, though not comparable to the above featless-and-also-damaging idea. The idea of stopping someone from moving past by clobbering them really shouldn't be a feat--it should be physics.
An automatic stop on being hit might be a bit much, though, and doesn't account for a more badass mover's capacity to ignore weak blows. Maybe something akin to a concentration check? Like a CMB check versus some value based on the damage dealt?