Andoran gets seriously involved in Arcadia. How would they treat the natives?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


For that matter, how does their current colony in Arcadia act towards natives? If the Andoran government gets more involved (backing up the Lumber Consortium, perhaps?) and starts expanding the colony, what's their likely attitude towards natives?


Well if it's anything like how the early United States treated the natives...

Grand Lodge

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Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
For that matter, how does their current colony in Arcadia act towards natives? If the Andoran government gets more involved (backing up the Lumber Consortium, perhaps?) and starts expanding the colony, what's their likely attitude towards natives?

Probably pretty badly the way Andoran is evolving now. Then again the murder-hobos that comprise the PC members of that faction, don't have any buisness throwing stones on that basis.


Well, the obvious answer is badly.

I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a single instance in any context of a colonial effort that was benign to the indigenous people. Yes, some are much worse than others, but they're all pretty bad.

Andoran is an interesting case, because they're a recently liberated colony with high-falootin' ideals. But let's be honest, colonization is economically driven, and more high-minded countries than Andoran have historically turned a blind eye to some pretty awful truths about colonialism. The post-revolution USA is the obvious go-to here, and well...

In terms of the fictional narrative, I can't see how even a "heroic" nation like Andoran could possibly close the gap between their ideals and the effects of colonialism. Writing a story about benevolent colonialism has so many issues of cognitive dissonance, and Paizo has never been one to shy away from presenting real-world evils in their fantasy.

Can anyone even suggest what benevolent colonialism would look like? It seems like "the white man's burden" is the best you can do, and that's pretty freakin' awful.

Grand Lodge

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Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:


Can anyone even suggest what benevolent colonialism would look like? It seems like "the white man's burden" is the best you can do, and that's pretty freakin' awful.

The only example that I've seen in gaming, (there have been NONE in real life) would probably be The Diamond Throne setting in Monte Cooke's Arcana Evolved. The giants DID come specifically to beat down the nasties who were ruling the land, and while they've set themselves up as rulers in their place, they seem to be making an honest and largely successful effort at being benevolent stewards as opposed to overlords.


Andoran ideals only go so far. Just look at Darkmoon Vale within Andoran's borders. I think a colony would attract the same exploiter-types, so it would have all of the same problems.

Andoran's Arcadian colony Elesomare might be run by the Lumber Consortium of something like it. In that way it would be similar to the Dutch East India Company or the British East India Company - run by a company based in those countries rather than by the government of those countries.


You could use our real-world historical precedent, which is pretty awful. Heroes need conflict, right? Sometimes an entire society or national project could supply the conflict.

Or, you could rewrite our history. Andoran might actually extend the olive branch instead, allowing Arcadians to join them as equals or live peacefully apart.

I guess it just depends on the story you want to tell.


The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

Grand Lodge

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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

You mean like the American Indians were? The Andorans will be invading with better magic and better tech, possibly better numbers as well, pretty much the same paralell.


I mean I assume the Arcadians will have everything the Avistani do after FIVE. THOUSAND. YEARS. of trading and fighting with the Ulfen, and that any disease exchange that might happen has already happened.

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LazarX wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

You mean like the American Indians were? The Andorans will be invading with better magic and better tech, possibly better numbers as well, pretty much the same paralell.

Unless the native Arcadians succumb to a host of Avistani diseases, and unless the Andorans receive comparatively little on that end, it's not much of a parallel.

Besides, who says that the Arcadians don't have comparable tech, magic, and numbers?


So, maybe the Andoran government backs the Lumber Consortium in disputes cause free markets, and corporate interests are bad for the natives?

Grand Lodge

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mechaPoet wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

You mean like the American Indians were? The Andorans will be invading with better magic and better tech, possibly better numbers as well, pretty much the same paralell.

Unless the native Arcadians succumb to a host of Avistani diseases, and unless the Andorans receive comparatively little on that end, it's not much of a parallel.

Besides, who says that the Arcadians don't have comparable tech, magic, and numbers?

Because they're not the ones colonizing Andora.


mechaPoet wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

You mean like the American Indians were? The Andorans will be invading with better magic and better tech, possibly better numbers as well, pretty much the same paralell.

Unless the native Arcadians succumb to a host of Avistani diseases, and unless the Andorans receive comparatively little on that end, it's not much of a parallel.

Besides, who says that the Arcadians don't have comparable tech, magic, and numbers?

I think we could take a page from Shadowrun's amusing (if condescending) observation: things would have gone very differently if magic were real.


LazarX wrote:
mechaPoet wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

You mean like the American Indians were? The Andorans will be invading with better magic and better tech, possibly better numbers as well, pretty much the same paralell.

Unless the native Arcadians succumb to a host of Avistani diseases, and unless the Andorans receive comparatively little on that end, it's not much of a parallel.

Besides, who says that the Arcadians don't have comparable tech, magic, and numbers?

Because they're not the ones colonizing Andora.

Colonization is only an indicator of having the tech to colonize. Not colonizing something is not an indicator of anything.

The Ulfen colony has existed there for 5 thousand years. This is enough time for any disease exchange to have happened and pass into history, then pass through into legend. It is also enough time for the Arcadians to figure out metalworking and magic.


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Or more likely, the Arcadians already had metalworking, magic, etc., but got set back when their neighbor Azlant went kerblooey. Just like the rest of the world.

Jatembe's disciples reached Tian Xia, and brought re-discovered arcane magic with them; I'd assume they reached Arcadia as well.

I'd expect the situation to be like Sargava - a foothold would get established, but Andoran (or a stronger nation) would have a hell of a time expanding out of the foothold.

Also, if Arcadia has an Aztec-analogue? That really has magic?

That would be horrible to run into.


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LazarX wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

The Arcadians have already been interacting (we presume) with the Linnorm King colonists for five thousand years. That's five thousand.

One presumes that they'll be ready for mere pseudo-USA types after dealing with Vikings for five thousand years.

You mean like the American Indians were? The Andorans will be invading with better magic and better tech, possibly better numbers as well, pretty much the same paralell.

Except that Adam Daigle, who has Arcadia as his pet region, has flat out stated that Arcadia has a comparable power level to Avistan


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I think another question, from Paizo's perspective, is whether we want Andoran colonization to be a benign, positive influence.

As someone who likes "what if" scenarios and turning expectations on their head, it wouldn't bother me if, say, the Andoran colony became some place of solidarity for struggling Arcadians against a much greater evil, or a front of relief after some horrible disaster. But as a company that cares about its reputation, Paizo has to worry about accusations of racism for "repainting the colonization of American in a pro-European light" or some such.

Such concerns aren't always fair to the accused, and can stifle creative setting development, but as long as it's Paizo's decision, I respect that. And Paizo has demonstrated a desire for sensitivity with such subject matter. With that meta-knowledge, I doubt things are exactly peachy with the Arcadian colony.


Marco Polaris wrote:

I think another question, from Paizo's perspective, is whether we want Andoran colonization to be a benign, positive influence.

As someone who likes "what if" scenarios and turning expectations on their head, it wouldn't bother me if, say, the Andoran colony became some place of solidarity for struggling Arcadians against a much greater evil, or a front of relief after some horrible disaster. But as a company that cares about its reputation, Paizo has to worry about accusations of racism for "repainting the colonization of American in a pro-European light" or some such.

Such concerns aren't always fair to the accused, and can stifle creative setting development, but as long as it's Paizo's decision, I respect that. And Paizo has demonstrated a desire for sensitivity with such subject matter. With that meta-knowledge, I doubt things are exactly peachy with the Arcadian colony.

I much prefer it when they don't sugarcoat things and give us believable backdrops of injustice to play out the fantasy of underdog heroes. I LOVE that Golarion has a large number of evil nations and that the remainder are decidedly grey morally.

It's not for everyone, but I think for a heroic game, you need the odds against the heroes.


Zhangar wrote:

Or more likely, the Arcadians already had metalworking, magic, etc., but got set back when their neighbor Azlant went kerblooey. Just like the rest of the world.

Jatembe's disciples reached Tian Xia, and brought re-discovered arcane magic with them; I'd assume they reached Arcadia as well.

I'd expect the situation to be like Sargava - a foothold would get established, but Andoran (or a stronger nation) would have a hell of a time expanding out of the foothold.

Also, if Arcadia has an Aztec-analogue? That really has magic?

That would be horrible to run into.

Ah, the Aztecs were done in by themselves though. The Spaniards merely exploited the situation. They encouraged a rebellion that was already ready to boil to the surface to occur.


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Why not have Arcadia get seriously involved in Andoran? It's not like they don't have ships, right? It'd be fun to see Paizo actually flip the script for a change, instead of clinging to the eurocentric "white people colonize everything" narrative we've seen so much of in the Mwangi Expanse. :P


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Inner Sea Races does suggest that Arcadians could be visiting the Inner Sea region incognito because few non-Arcadians would have any idea what Arcadians look like. With a little bit of research, they could find places in Avistan and Garund that they could colonize without resistance.

In fact, there are some minor ethnicities in Garund that do not seem to be related to the Mwangi or the Garundi. Maybe they are actually the descendants of colonists from Arcadia?


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Or more likely, the Arcadians already had metalworking, magic, etc., but got set back when their neighbor Azlant went kerblooey. Just like the rest of the world.

Jatembe's disciples reached Tian Xia, and brought re-discovered arcane magic with them; I'd assume they reached Arcadia as well.

I'd expect the situation to be like Sargava - a foothold would get established, but Andoran (or a stronger nation) would have a hell of a time expanding out of the foothold.

Also, if Arcadia has an Aztec-analogue? That really has magic?

That would be horrible to run into.

Ah, the Aztecs were done in by themselves though. The Spaniards merely exploited the situation. They encouraged a rebellion that was already ready to boil to the surface to occur.

Lets not forget those middling advantages such as horses, firearms, and disease. And yes the resentment of the native tribes the Aztecs were lording over.


Honestly, it was less a "rebellion" and more an international conflict the Spaniards hijacked. Many of the Aztecs' enemies were arguably nations in their own right—sort of like the existence of the USSR before its collapse.


There's a massive difference between Arcadia and c 1500s America; the former is a continent comprised of thriving empires, nation-states, and the like, all united in at least one cause: repelling foreign invasions. A powerful trade coalition is able to keep colonists very much in check.

Far more importantly, the Native Americans were just utterly blindsided by new plagues. Smallpox and the like were essential in weakening the native people enough for colonists to then take over. That isn't going to be an issue for Arcadia.

Lastly, there's the great societal equalizer of magic. Arcadians have their own potent traditions to match anyone from Avistan. In short, the Arcadian people are not at the mercy of colonists in any appreciable context. The two continents are on equal footing based on what we know thus far.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

it really depends on how you want to run it.

You COULD do a comparable version of the New World - POWER XXXX (aspis consortium springs to mind, but the church of asmodeus, or urgathoa or whatever) creates a magic-impervious plague which decimates Arcadia entire, leaving it defenseless against Avistani conquistadors.

OR you could make it where the Arcadians are stronger than the Avistani and the Andorans are trying to leverage that power for their own gain

OR you could do whatever.

PERSONALLY, I would like for there to be... things... in Arcadia. there's people there, but they don't talk about them... and for good reason. and if the delicate balance is upset, well....

Shadow Lodge

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MMCJawa wrote:
Except that Adam Daigle, who has Arcadia as his pet region, has flat out stated that Arcadia has a comparable power level to Avistan

That's a bit of a disservice to Arcadia. If anything, Avistan is quite the backwater as far as Golarion goes, which makes certain nations' pretensions to world-power quite amusing.

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
Except that Adam Daigle, who has Arcadia as his pet region, has flat out stated that Arcadia has a comparable power level to Avistan
That's a bit of a disservice to Arcadia. If anything, Avistan is quite the backwater as far as Golarion goes, which makes certain nations' pretensions to world-power quite amusing.

How the f%&% is "this place isn't backwater savage" a disservice?


I think he was saying that Arcadia was more advanced and/or powerful than Avistan, and to say they were on the same level is a disservice to Arcadia.

Silver Crusade

Captain Yesterday wrote:
I think he was saying that Arcadia was more advanced and/or powerful than Avistan, and to say they were on the same level is a disservice to Arcadia.

Derp, sorry Zim, I read that as Arcadia in the second sentence >_<


I think the model for a more respectful colonization is somewhere between what the Vikings did and what the French did. That said, that's no guarantee that Arcadia is going anything like that.


If even Cheliax knows not to mess with the Segada Protocol, Andoran sure as heck isn't going to even if they were so inclined to help out the Lumber Consortium in a more timely manner.


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From the geography of Golarion, Arcadia has the same disadvantages relative to Avistan that the historical Americas have had relative to Europe. These disadvantages manifested as reduced resistance to disease and a lower level of technology.

However, the different history of Golarion has allowed Arcadia to overcome those disadvantages. The major epidemics that would have wiped out most of the population of Arcadia would have occurred about 5000 years ago, and trade with Avistan would have started much sooner than in our world -- so it would be hard for at least the eastern part of Arcadia to do anything but keep up with Avistan.

It is also likely (though not mentioned in any official source) that the northwestern part of Arcadia is already in contact with Tian Xia and is progressing in lockstep with that continent.

If the mountain barriers do not slow down the Arcadians too much, some cultures in the middle part of northern Arcadia could be combining technology from Avistan, Tian Xia, and their own innovations in very interesting ways.


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The Golux wrote:
I think the model for a more respectful colonization is somewhere between what the Vikings did and what the French did. That said, that's no guarantee that Arcadia is going anything like that.

Based on what we've seen, I doubt Arcadia is going to fit into any sort of traditionalist colonization narrative whatsoever...

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Cole Deschain wrote:
The Golux wrote:
I think the model for a more respectful colonization is somewhere between what the Vikings did and what the French did. That said, that's no guarantee that Arcadia is going anything like that.
Based on what we've seen, I doubt Arcadia is going to fit into any sort of traditionalist colonization narrative whatsoever...

I share those doubts.


David knott 242 wrote:

From the geography of Golarion, Arcadia has the same disadvantages relative to Avistan that the historical Americas have had relative to Europe. These disadvantages manifested as reduced resistance to disease and a lower level of technology.

However, the different history of Golarion has allowed Arcadia to overcome those disadvantages. The major epidemics that would have wiped out most of the population of Arcadia would have occurred about 5000 years ago, and trade with Avistan would have started much sooner than in our world -- so it would be hard for at least the eastern part of Arcadia to do anything but keep up with Avistan.

It is also likely (though not mentioned in any official source) that the northwestern part of Arcadia is already in contact with Tian Xia and is progressing in lockstep with that continent.

If the mountain barriers do not slow down the Arcadians too much, some cultures in the middle part of northern Arcadia could be combining technology from Avistan, Tian Xia, and their own innovations in very interesting ways.

A lot of the geographical issues with Arcadia, that plagued the Americas...can pretty much be handwaved away by gods. "Oh horses aren't here? BOOP Now they are" Etc. Disease? There is a cleric spell for that.

Also if anything Geography HELPS Arcadia. In our world the Pilgrims didn't have to sail through a ruined archipelago full of monsters and ancient discarded magics to reach the shores of North America. That's going to severely limit cross Arcadian Ocean trade and colonization.


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I for one welcome our Arcadian overlords. In that I kind of want the next AP to be about Arcadia just f%**ing conquering Cheliax. ;D


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I for one welcome our Arcadian overlords. In that I kind of want the next AP to be about Arcadia just f*#@ing conquering Cheliax. ;D

For Asmodeus sake, Alexeara! Now everyone thinks they can conquer Cheliax... XD

Wouldn't it be even more exciting if they tried to take the Starstone from and conquer Absalom in the process? No one remember that Absalom is where three mortals have ascended to godhood. Who wouldn't want to monopolize such a valuable god creating meteorite?


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Bring it on b@$~*es! I'm not going anywhere! Except maybe on a shopping spree.


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You guys are about to get your boring imperialist white people asses kicked.


Puh-lease! We didn't do shit, it's Andoran they're after. Look! It says so in the title.

We're more then willing to point them in the right direction. :-)

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