Save the Kobolds!


Homebrew and House Rules


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

...From poorly designed features! This is my list of all questions and declarations on Kobold-related content. I’d prefer to keep away from making suggestions, and I’m focusing more on what’s written correctly and what could use clarification or clearing up. Why am I doing this for Kobolds, you ask? Because they are best race. Honest.

Standard Racial Traits-

Crafty - Why does this racial trait have +2 to Perception? When calculating racial power (RP) and looking at the alternate racial traits, it’s fairly clear this +2 Perception was appended on to artificially inflate the Kobolds’ starting RP. All of the Crafty-replacing alternate racial traits do not account for this shift in RP, and most people are going to replace it anyways (because while it’s nice that Kobolds are better miners than dwarves, that’s not what most adventurers are looking for).

Alternate Racial Traits-

Beast Bond - Is a Crafty replacement, therefore gives a 2 point loss.

Echo Whistler - Ghost Sound 3/day with a circumstance bonus to bluff when used in a specific environment. Why is this even a trait? Shouldn’t anyone be able to bluff to convince someone their voice is coming from a different direction? Pretty sure anyone should be allowed to attempt this unlimited times per day.

Gliding Wings - See Draconic Wings. Also, since Draconic Wings exists, this is worth roughly 2 RP (static bonus feat), yet it’s replacing Crafty, valued at 7 RP.

Jester - Same problem as Beast Bond.

Shoulder to Shoulder - I like this alternate racial trait, but a racial +1 to Aid Another? Does that mean regardless of the skill check or attack, you’re getting +1 to the D20 roll, or does it mean the bonus of +2 to whatever is increased to +3? I suspect the former, but then that raises the question on whether this racial bonus would stack with other racial bonuses to a given skill check if it’s used to aid another. Does the +1 racial while aiding in climb get negated by the +2 racial bonus to climb checks from prehensile tail?

Spellcaster Sneak - Why is this a 1/day access to a metamagic feat? There is no stipulation that this Silent Spell doesn’t increase the spell slot taken or cast time if you’re spontaneous, so following the general rules of metamagic, this trait is pretty bad. According to the race creation table, giving access to a static bonus feat is 2 RP, so giving access to a static feat limited to 1 use per day? Must be worth less than 2, and this is replacing Crafty.

Wild Forest Kobold - It’s replacing the perception bonus in Crafty to grant a perception bonus. What?

Wyrmcrowned - Crafty is a 7 RP trait. This is a 2.5 RP racial trait. Why is it “diplomacy or intimidate?” Even if it granted both, it would still be 2 RP under. Is it really important enough to justify a 4.5 RP loss to make sure kobolds can’t both diplomacize and cover part of the penalty from being small while using intimidate in a medium+ world?

Favored Class Bonuses-

Barbarian - What does it mean by “Racial” natural attacks? Kobolds can only get one natural attack from racial traits, unless one considers the tail slap gained from Tail Terror as racial. Even if the tailed is valid, that’s one point of damage to two attacks per full round action at the cost of a feat and 4 skill points or health.

Bard - Why is this a bonus to the Fascinate bardic performance when the kobold racial archetype for Bard (Dragon Herald) removes the Fascinate bardic performance? I know they were created in different books, but one or the other should probably change so there’s some synergy.

Racial Archetypes-

Dragon Herald: Why does this racial archetype specifically state it adds Draconic to the Dragon Herald’s list of languages? Kobolds begin speaking only Draconic, so adding Draconic is meaningless for Kobolds. Even if other races were allowed to select Dragon Herald for whatever reason, who would become a herald for a dragon without learning to speak draconic of their own volition? It’s even a bard, so what excuse is there to not spend 1 skill point between levels 1 and 10 on Linguistics to gain full functionality of the ability granted at 10?

Snare Setter: Trapsmithing is nice and all, but there’s a few problems:
1) It doesn’t have a minimum (1) like Trapfinding, which is minor but still noticeable.
2) It states it uses Craft(Traps) while the kobold racial bonus is to Craft(Trapmaking).

Racial Feats-

General: Overall, these feats are why I enjoy playing Kobolds. In my social circles, they’re the go-to race for Humans and Aasimar to pick up through Racial Heritage.

Draconic Breath: This ability functions once per day in the first description, but then the “Special” states sorcerers of the Draconic or Kobold bloodlines can use their Charisma modifier instead of their Constitution to determine the number of uses per day/DC.

In what way is this an error?
1) The feat actually uses the constitution modifier (minimum 1) to calculate the number of times per day a kobold can use the breath weapon.
2) The feat doesn’t have the constitution modifier in the number of uses per day, therefore a non-existent constitution modifier cannot be replaced by charisma and stays at 1/day regardless of bloodline.
3) The feat used the constitution modifier at one point, but was changed to 1/day and the special effect was not updated to remove the Constitution-to-uses statement.

Additionally, why is this feat’s special effect so exclusive? Eldritch Heritage, Draconic Disciple, Scaled Disciple, and now the Bloodrager are all methods of having some degree of access to the Draconic bloodline, but the player must be a Sorcerer to gain the feat’s full benefits.

Draconic Glide: This feat becomes actually worse than nothing if one has the Gliding Wings racial trait. If one does not have Gliding Wings, it grants +2 to saves versus sleep and paralysis and a Gliding Wings equivalent. If one has Gliding Wings, it increases the kobold’s base speed from 30 feet to...30 feet. It even states in the special “instead of the above abilities,” meaning that +2 to saves is not granted if one has the Gliding Wings racial trait, at least RAW. Why is this feat worded in such a manner? It really needs some fixing.

Draconic Paragon: It’s cool and all to be given a natural fly speed, but by requiring 10th level, no one is going to have access to it until 11th with the exception of Rogues. It has poor synergy with Draconic Breath because it shifts the uses from 1 to 2, meaning Sorcerers would not gain any uses per day since it no longer uses a set number. This could easily be fixed by stating it adds 1 use per day instead.

Merciless Magic and Merciless Precision: Why aren’t these tagged as Combat feats? Kobold Ambusher has nothing directly to do with combat, yet it’s tagged as a combat feat. These apply almost exclusively to combat, but they’re general.

Redeemed Kobold: I’ve got to ask, since it only states “for the purposes of channelling positive energy,” does that mean it affects Lay on Hands? I’m a bit confused on the limitations of this feat, other than it must be positive energy and it must have something to do with charisma. If it only affects Channel Positive Energy, then the entry should be fixed from “channelling” to channel.

Race Traits-

Elaborate Trapper: States it’s Craft(trap), which is different from Craft(Traps) and Craft(Trapmaking). Which is it?

Carnation Scales: Is this a trait bonus, or a non-typed? Because it doesn’t say so.

Golden Scales: Again, is this a trait bonus? It’s also one of the few traits I’ve seen give penalties for taking it.

Sneaky Swimmer: Same as Carnation or Golden scales.

Racial Weapons-

Kobold Tail Attachments: The Tail Slap these attachments augment is a secondary natural attack. Once a tail attachment has been equipped, the description states the tail attack is a light weapon. Does this mean with Two-weapon fighting while dual-wielding light weapons, the augmented tail slap will hit at BAB-2 instead of BAB-5?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

from what I understand, most of the problems come from different authors. and i think the glide feat author must have assumed that since kobolds are small they have a base speed of 20. *shrug* i really like playing kobolds thematically too, but the mechanics are just bad.

the tail attachments count as a manufactured weapon that you can make iterative attacks with and is no longer a natural weapon.


Quote:
Crafty - Why does this racial trait have +2 to Perception? When calculating racial power (RP) and looking at the alternate racial traits, it’s fairly clear this +2 Perception was appended on to artificially inflate the Kobolds’ starting RP. All of the Crafty-replacing alternate racial traits do not account for this shift in RP, and most people are going to replace it anyways (because while it’s nice that Kobolds are better miners than dwarves, that’s not what most adventurers are looking for).

It wasn't added on to inflate the kobolds RP. It was added because kobolds already had a Perception bonus in the Bestiary (which itself was because D&D kobolds got a bonus on Search checks).

Liberty's Edge

They did do quite a number on my favorite race!

The stat bonuses are so harsh compared to other similarly built races (physical build). Kobolds, being reptilian, seem like they should not have a constitution penalty. Grippli, being a full foot shorter, have less of a strength penalty. I could see them being more like +2 Dex +2 int -2 Str.

Looking over all the standard race traits, I can see some of them fitting nice with their style. Knee-capper, Sneaky, Swarming to name a few.

Liberty's Edge

This using the classic descriptions of their tactics:

Kobolds are essentially self-interested cowards, with no concept of loyalty or trust, and often with a giant chip on their shoulder. They rarely fight fair: only overwhelming numbers are considered "enough," and they use traps, ambushes, and poisons to secure a victory at any cost.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I did the same thing stat wise but charisma instead of int. they don't strike me as better educated, which is all the int stat actually effects. (knowledge skills, knowledge based casting)


Eh, I blame some of the inconsistency on the fact that this is several writers that are writing for a race that it played for flavor more than mechanics. So they likely got sloppy at times with fact checking (since few would go through it with a fine tooth comb)

And so what if some of the traits and such are weird and useless. Most racial stuff like that is often weird and useless. You don't see most people going for the 'heart of the' alt traits for humans (other than fields- that is useful for barbarians).

The only thing I would complain about is how restricting the strength penalty is. And I am not sure it is even necessary to get rid of it. By just giving them 2 bonus feats (which would actually put them comfortably on the same RP score as the core races, for what it is worth), you can solve the problem.

With weapon focus (picks or some natural weapon), plus a more liberally interpreted small but deadly (check second in the editor's note), then they would be fine for a strength based build. They are small, so they have a +1 to attack rolls from the get go. Give another +1 from weapon focus, and then you have overcome the strength penalty. The more liberal interpretation of small but deadly lets you ignore your race's strength penalties when dermining damage.

I suggest that you restrict the weapon focus (which determines which attacks benefit from small but dealdly) to picks or natural weapons for flavor reasons. The various Picks are not exactly bad weapons (high critical damage- good for pairing with butterfly sting...which seems particularly kobold-y since it is a 2 on 1 style). Having access to weapon focus from level 1 is also rather nice from a build perspective as well, since it is a common prerequisite for feats (and having it early is great for 3/4 BAB classes, since it doesn't have to fight with power attack for their 3rd level feat slot).

As for why they get weapon focus and small but deadly? Just say that their lawful society forces strict training that is meant to overcome their small build. There are still problems (they make str dumping human wizards look brawny when it comes to carrying capacity), but getting a str build as even a possibility seems interesting.

Shadow Lodge

Bandw2 wrote:
I did the same thing stat wise but charisma instead of int. they don't strike me as better educated, which is all the int stat actually effects. (knowledge skills, knowledge based casting)

The Int stat doesn't represent education, it represents your innate learning and reasoning abilities - which means you'll get more knowledge out of any education you have whether formal or informal. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can come from reading books about dungeons, listening to people at the bar talking about dungeons and fitting together the bits that make sense, actually going down into one and poking at oozes, or a combination of the three.

Int also makes you a better crafter, presumably because you can easily figure out how to put things together and can visualize the physical product.


A lot of what the Kobolds have they inherited from 3.5

Unfortunately we can no longer dragon wrought our kobolds in Pathfinder.

However with the ACG I think kobolds have finally come into their own as a race.

Slayers, Investigators, Swashbucklers (Kobold mouser anyone, maybe with kobold style?), and to a lesser extent brawler can all benefit from the goodies that a kobold has.

Kobolds also have a great bard archetype that wins at diplomacy, and have some of the best FC options in the game.


lemeres wrote:

Eh, I blame some of the inconsistency on the fact that this is several writers that are writing for a race that it played for flavor more than mechanics. So they likely got sloppy at times with fact checking (since few would go through it with a fine tooth comb)

And so what if some of the traits and such are weird and useless. Most racial stuff like that is often weird and useless. You don't see most people going for the 'heart of the' alt traits for humans (other than fields- that is useful for barbarians).

I agree that it's fine a lot of the stuff can be deemed weird or useless, it's just some of the limitations are straight-up unnecessary or senseless, as in it doesn't even fit a flavor. Spellcaster Sneak giving one use of Silent Spell per day. Dragon Herald "giving" Draconic to a race that begins speaking only Draconic. Racial feats that actually lose functionality if one has taken a racial trait (Gliding Wings -> Draconic Flight).

The point of this thread was to condense every last thing that need or could use an update to maintain functionality and consistency in the hopes that if it were FAQ'd, nothing would be missed and actual suggestions could begin to flow in.

As to the strength penalty, it's not that bad if you plan on not having dexterity to AC anyways. I've had particularly bad experiences with a kobold Alchemist with base strength, mostly because of that obligatory Alchemy Crafting kit.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Weirdo wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
I did the same thing stat wise but charisma instead of int. they don't strike me as better educated, which is all the int stat actually effects. (knowledge skills, knowledge based casting)

The Int stat doesn't represent education, it represents your innate learning and reasoning abilities - which means you'll get more knowledge out of any education you have whether formal or informal. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can come from reading books about dungeons, listening to people at the bar talking about dungeons and fitting together the bits that make sense, actually going down into one and poking at oozes, or a combination of the three.

Int also makes you a better crafter, presumably because you can easily figure out how to put things together and can visualize the physical product.

trust me when I say there was a huge 100s of posts thread on what intelligence means. Nothing suggests that it is the characters actual intelligence level, and simply modifies how good they are at learning things. it's more like education or education efficiency. Any idea to the contrary is getting caught up on the fluff presented in the book and the name of the stat.

this is especially true since a int 5 rogue can still get more skill points than the average class.

basically, an int 3 character can be just as smart as a character as a int 18, it only effects their ability to learn new skills and use knowledge based stuff.


Eh...not sure I saw a rules question here so much as a lobbying for change. Or for better options.

In any event, Kobolds were the favorite child of that other game if I recall correctly. Goblins are the favorite child here at Paizo....and even they don't get much love.

Shadow Lodge

Off-topic on intelligence:

Bandw2 wrote:
trust me when I say there was a huge 100s of posts thread on what intelligence means.

I think I remember that thread. I've certainly participated in a lot of discussions on how to RP mental stats.

Bandw2 wrote:

Nothing suggests that it is the characters actual intelligence level, and simply modifies how good they are at learning things. it's more like education or education efficiency. Any idea to the contrary is getting caught up on the fluff presented in the book and the name of the stat

this is especially true since a int 5 rogue can still get more skill points than the average class.

basically, an int 3 character can be just as smart as a character as a int 18, it only effects their ability to learn new skills and use knowledge based stuff.

Intelligence: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. (First definition on google.)

How is a stat that affects their ability to learn new skills and use knowledge based stuff not something that represents the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills?

Maybe it would be more realistic to say that low-int characters learn everything slower and have Int affect XP gain rather than skill points, but that's unbalanced so skill points are used as an abstraction. Skill points represent how much energy a character has to learn abilities beyond class features. A rogue has more base skill points not because they're smarter than other classes but because they do not learn as many combat and non-magical abilities than other classes, so they have more energy to spend on learning mundane skills. A low-int character can learn to be as good as a high-int character at non-int based skills if they spend a greater portion of effort (skill points) in learning a few skills, but because mastering each skill takes more effort they can't master (max out) as many skills as a high-Int one.

The int stat is certainly a better representation of native intelligence than of education. An Int 12 druid trained in Climb, Handle Animal, Perception, Survival, and Swim is not more educated than an Int 8 druid trained in Knowledge Nature, Knowledge Geography, and Profession (scribe). If the first druid were given a formal education, they would be better than the second at the Knowledge skills, but that's because they are better at learning and reasoning. If you want to call that educational affinity, fine, but remember that it is largely independent of whether someone is actually educated. Thus kobolds can have a high "education affinity" even if the average kobold is not educated.

Intelligence is also associated with problem-solving skills whenever problem-solving is delegated to the character, for example when solving a Devil's Crux puzzle box or in the Linguistics skill for deciphering languages.


Claxon wrote:
Eh...not sure I saw a rules question here so much as a lobbying for change. Or for better options.

There are a few rules questions in the post, but you are correct. The post's design was not optimized to be answered so much as picking out every design incongruity and questioning why it continues to exist. I'll clarify what rules-related questions I had:

1) Why does Crafty have +2 to Perception?

Answer: It was added because Kobolds had it in the Beastiary.

2) Why do all racial traits which replace Crafty grant less RP (minimum 2, maximum 4.5)?

3) Does a racial bonus to Aid Another stack with a separate racial bonus to the skill used to aid another?

4) Does a "racial natural attack" exist, and if so, what are they?

5) Is Craft(Trap) the same as Craft(Trapmaking) or Craft(Traps)?

6) For Redeemed Kobold, what qualifies as "channeling positive energy?"

7) If a trait does not state it gives a trait bonus, does that make it an untyped bonus?

8) If a player is dual-wielding and has a tail attachment at level 3, do they get 2 or 3 attacks in a full-attack action, assuming they do not have any other natural attacks to add? I'm not sure whether it falls into two-weapon or multi-weapon fighting, since they are wielding three manufactured weapons on separate limbs.

The rest is mostly statements of what's wrong rather than rules questions.


Saint_Yin wrote:

There are a few rules questions in the post, but you are correct. The post's design was not optimized to be answered so much as picking out every design incongruity and questioning why it continues to exist. I'll clarify what rules-related questions I had:

1) Why does Crafty have +2 to Perception?

Answer: It was added because Kobolds had it in the Beastiary.

2) Why do all racial traits which replace Crafty grant less RP (minimum 2, maximum 4.5)?

3) Does a racial bonus to Aid Another stack with a separate racial bonus to the skill used to aid another?

4) Does a "racial natural attack" exist, and if so, what are they?

5) Is Craft(Trap) the same as Craft(Trapmaking) or Craft(Traps)?

6) For Redeemed Kobold, what qualifies as "channeling positive energy?"

7) If a trait does not state it gives a trait bonus, does that make it an untyped bonus?

8) If a player is dual-wielding and has a tail attachment at level 3, do they get 2 or 3 attacks in a full-attack action, assuming they do not have any other natural attacks to add? I'm not sure whether it falls into two-weapon or multi-weapon fighting, since they are wielding three manufactured weapons on separate limbs.

The rest is mostly statements of what's wrong rather than rules questions.

2) RP isn't really a science, so just because what is being replaced has greater value than what you are replacing it with doesn't mean much. Also, the replacement option shouldn't be more powerful or obviously better than the original option so as to make it a "no brainer" choice.

3) Sure, but without some other special ability you still only provide a +2 to your ally, and the DC is normally only 10 so it's usually not much of a problem. But there is no reason why a bonus specifically to aid another and a bonus to a skill being used to aid wouldn't stack. You are normally just making a skill check to aid, you just happen to be extra good at helping others.

4) A racial natural attack would be a natural attack based on being a Kobold. It appears the feat that allows you to gain a tail slap would be the only thing that qualifies.

5) Simply bad editing. All are the same.

7) Technically yes. Though I don't like this, and I consider all trait bonuses to be typed as trait type bonus regardless of whether it is stated explicitly or not. I believe there was once developer commentary expressing a similar opinion, but most people seem to have overlooked it and the prevailing opinion is if it isn't stated it is untyped.

8) Technically tail attachments will turn your natural attack (tail slap) into a manufactured weapon attack meaning that you make them as you would normal weapon attacks. So you can't make them in addition to your normal attacks on a full attack as you could with a natural weapon. So they would only get 2 attacks, and only if they were two weapon fighting. Multiweapon fighting requires three or more hands as a prerequisite, and so kobolds do not qualify. Tail attachments should have had something to say that they continue to function as natural attacks, but they do not.


The Dragon Herald archetype also replaces Fascinate, but leaves in Suggestion and Mass Suggestion which means you end up without a sixth level or 18th level bardic performance because you need your opponent to be fascinated to use them.
Plus the Bards favored class option for the Kobold modifies the Fascinate performance, so they just sort of dropped the ball on Kobold bards if you choose the racial archetype.

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