4 level 20 animal companions and full casting to boot.


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Race: Half orc
Class Oracle (Nature) 7/Hunter(Pack Lord) or Druid(Pack Master)1 /Oracle 12
All favored class bonuses to Elf Oracle special
1. Racial Heritage (Elf)
3. Nature Soul
5. Animal Ally
7. Beast Rider (Bonded Mount goes here)
9. Skill Focus (Knowledge Nature)
11. Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)
13. Boon Companion
15. Boon Companion
17. Boon Companion
19. Boon Companion

Purchase a Robe of Arcane Heritage

Animal Ally=16 druid levels
Blood line= 14 druid levels
Robe = 4 druid levels
Boon Companion = 16 druid levels
Beast rider = 8 druid levels
Bonded mount = 19 druid levels
Favored class = 9 druid levels
Total = 86 Druid levels

Since the bloodline and druid/hunter levels allow any animal companion you can take 1 AC of any type.
2 must meet the mount or beast rider restrictions
1 must meet the Animal all or beast rider restrictions

The last 6 levels can be uses for utility animal or to free up 1 feat.
If the animal is on the beast rider list it will add 2 more levels to the total.

Improved share spell would be terrifying if you could 1/5 duration and have one spell effect them all. You would have to find a way to stay withing 5 feet of them all.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will be watching this one closely.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.

Does Boon Companion allow itself to be taken multiple times?

I'm not sure a robe of arcane heritage works on Eldritch Heritage either.

Lots of debatable stuff in this idea.


Mathius wrote:

Race: Half orc

Class Oracle (Nature) 7/Hunter(Pack Lord) or Druid(Pack Master)1 /Oracle 12
All favored class bonuses to Elf Oracle special
1. Racial Heritage (Elf)
3. Nature Soul
5. Animal Ally
7. Beast Rider (Bonded Mount goes here)
9. Skill Focus (Knowledge Nature)
11. Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)
13. Boon Companion
15. Boon Companion
17. Boon Companion
19. Boon Companion

Purchase a Robe of Arcane Heritage

Animal Ally=16 druid levels
Blood line= 14 druid levels
Robe = 4 druid levels
Boon Companion = 16 druid levels
Beast rider = 8 druid levels
Bonded mount = 19 druid levels
Favored class = 9 druid levels
Total = 86 Druid levels

Since the bloodline and druid/hunter levels allow any animal companion you can take 1 AC of any type.
2 must meet the mount or beast rider restrictions
1 must meet the Animal all or beast rider restrictions

The last 6 levels can be uses for utility animal or to free up 1 feat.
If the animal is on the beast rider list it will add 2 more levels to the total.

Improved share spell would be terrifying if you could 1/5 duration and have one spell effect them all. You would have to find a way to stay withing 5 feet of them all.

Very interesting. I presume Teamwork feats would naturally follow?

I don't get the '86 total Druid levels thing' though...


ryric wrote:
Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.

Good point.

ryric wrote:
Does Boon Companion allow itself to be taken multiple times?

It does.

ryric wrote:
I'm not sure a robe of arcane heritage works on Eldritch Heritage either.

I've definitely seen it debated back and forth.


Wiggz wrote:
I don't get the '86 total Druid levels thing' though...

It looks like the OP is combining all the "Druid Levels" gained in various ways, and then distributing them afterwards, something I don't think you can do.

Pretty sure you would have to keep track of them separately.


"A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite"

So your animal ally would leave you as soon as you got an animal companion.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ryric wrote:
Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.

It's a bloodline AND an archetype. Therefore I'd argue that it is perfectly legal.

Eldritch Heritage merely asks if it is a bloodline. Is it a bloodline?

Yes? Then you can take it.

No? Then you can't take it.

Since it is both, and Eldritch Heritage doesn't care one lick about archetypes, I'm pretty certain you're good to go!


For PFS this is strictly a no go. You are allowed only 1 animal companion.

Though I think it is likely you did not intend for this to be a PFS build.

I'm interested in what others have to say. As a GM I limit players to one animal companion/controlled undead creature/cohort/etc so the table doesn't get bogged down.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Ravingdork wrote:
ryric wrote:
Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.
It's a bloodline AND an archetype. Therefore I'd argue that it is perfectly legal.

The bloodline is Fey. The archetype changes the Fey bloodline to Sylvan. Without the archetype there is no Sylvan. Much in the same way that you can't use Amateur Gunslinger to pick a Pistolero deed.

Also the feat doesn't give you both the arcana and 1st level power, which you need for the AC anyway. So there's two reasons it doesn't work.


Ravingdork wrote:
ryric wrote:
Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.

It's a bloodline AND an archetype. Therefore I'd argue that it is perfectly legal.

Eldritch Heritage merely asks if it is a bloodline. Is it a bloodline?

Yes? Then you can take it.

No? Then you can't take it.

Since it is both, and Eldritch Heritage doesn't care one lick about archetypes, I'm pretty certain you're good to go!

Actually it is not a bloodline. It is a mutated bloodline. Different thing.


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Teatime42 wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
I don't get the '86 total Druid levels thing' though...

It looks like the OP is combining all the "Druid Levels" gained in various ways, and then distributing them afterwards, something I don't think you can do.

Pretty sure you would have to keep track of them separately.

This is a pretty important piece. For instance, Boon Companion doesn't just give you 4 static levels of Druid to add to one total; it gives you up to four levels to add to your Druid level for one specific animal companion.

So if your effective Druid level for Animal Ally is CL-3, when you add Boon Companion, you don't now have an animal companion at CL then have another free Druid level to add to another companion via Pack Lord.

Also, I don't know that Pack Lord lets you divvy up Druid Levels to any and all Animal Companions that you might have. The Intent appears to allow that one class to grant multiple lesser ACs. You might be fighting against intent here, that being a hard cap of 20 on the ACs relevant to this class alone.

You're going to need to trace your effective Druid levels per animal companion pretty clearly to allow this to work. Plus, there's the question as to whether Animal Ally allows you to have another AC, as opposed to simply stacking with another AC once you get it. So after you take the Bonded Mount revelation, all that happens is the AA levels would stack with the Oracle levels. But since Bonded Mount already advances at Oracle level, it wouldn't add anything new. So that gives you one AC at Oracle level, not two ACs, one at Oracle level and one at CL-3.

All in all, there might be some things that work together here to give you a couple of pretty powerful ACs. But overall, I'd be very, very hesitant to say this works anywhere close to how you're claiming. If you were a PC at my table, I'd ask you to present a really well-documented case as to why it should work this way. Basically, prove that everything works the way you're claiming and I'll consider it. And by prove, I me show me FAQs, clarifications, and developer comments that demonstrate that the things you're trying to stack stack and that Pack Lord allows you to combine all conceivable effective Druid levels, then divvy them up as you see fit.


Some DMs let you use Eldricth heritage on wildblood lines and some dont. Since this isnt meant for PFS who cares? Maybe his DM houserules it, but arguing over it is stupid.


EsperMagic wrote:
Some DMs let you use Eldricth heritage on wildblood lines and some dont. Since this isnt meant for PFS who cares? Maybe his DM houserules it, but arguing over it is stupid.

Because maybe his GM doesn't, and he's mistaken when it comes to the rules.

And, this IS in the rules question forum, where the rules matter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ryric wrote:


Does Boon Companion allow itself to be taken multiple times?

Yes, but only once per companion.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dave Justus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
ryric wrote:
Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.

It's a bloodline AND an archetype. Therefore I'd argue that it is perfectly legal.

Eldritch Heritage merely asks if it is a bloodline. Is it a bloodline?

Yes? Then you can take it.

No? Then you can't take it.

Since it is both, and Eldritch Heritage doesn't care one lick about archetypes, I'm pretty certain you're good to go!

Actually it is not a bloodline. It is a mutated bloodline. Different thing.

A mutated bloodline was still a bloodline last I checked.


Isn't that like arguing that a monstrous humanoid is a humanoid?


Ravingdork wrote:
A mutated bloodline was still a bloodline last I checked.

I thought that the wildblooded bloodlines were created by the Archtype, an Archtypal modification of a class mechanic (The existing bloodlines), wouldn't you then need the archetype?


Teatime42 wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Some DMs let you use Eldricth heritage on wildblood lines and some dont. Since this isnt meant for PFS who cares? Maybe his DM houserules it, but arguing over it is stupid.

Because maybe his GM doesn't, and he's mistaken when it comes to the rules.

And, this IS in the rules question forum, where the rules matter.

Most players know what their GMs allow. To assume otherwise is dumb.

Grand Lodge

Im pretty sure, based on the following, the only way you can have more than one animal companion from different classes, rather than having the effective druid levels stack (up to a max of your HD, barring certain exceptions) is to have all of them from separate exclusionary lists.

ie- if one list has just a horse (medium paladin) and one list has only dogs or birds (hunt master cavalier) and one has all (druid), then you could have a dog, a horse and a tiger. However, if i chose to have a dog from my druid levels, i would be unable to get another dog from my cavalier levels, as they would be merged with my druid levels for calculating the statistics of my companion.

"Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
This same answer applies to multiclassed cavalier/rangers.
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)"


EsperMagic wrote:
Teatime42 wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Some DMs let you use Eldricth heritage on wildblood lines and some dont. Since this isnt meant for PFS who cares? Maybe his DM houserules it, but arguing over it is stupid.

Because maybe his GM doesn't, and he's mistaken when it comes to the rules.

And, this IS in the rules question forum, where the rules matter.

Most players know what their GMs allow. To assume otherwise is dumb.

If I had a nickel for everytime my GMs told us up front everything they allow or don't allow.

I might be able to get a soda, maybe.

Again, this is the Rules forums, so a discussion of the rules belongs here.


I did this before, made it a teamwork grappler build... You'll hate me for this but imagine four horses grappling the Big Bad Evil Guy and rubbing their armor spikes onto him...

i called it the ohio build >.>''

I think you beat my record though, I had effective druid level 83..

I seem to recall that you get more bang for your buck as an animal domain cleric with the chivalry inquisition (Two stacking animal companions per level)


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By the way... when your half orc has an elven parent, you'll only see beauty....

The only better thing is an orc bloodline Half-drow with racial heritage whatever... Unlocking all Feats/archetypes for drow, orcs, elves, half-elves, humans, and your choice of one more!

Just wait til someone decides that a half-drow-kobold-orc with martial versatility:noxious bite is the best idea ever....

Because it is, don't deny it....

But back to the original, Honestly find ways to use combat maneuvers, get a plethora of pets... Might be better to have some squishies (three teamwork feat wolves instead of two horses??)

I'd also like to remind you that you can always give that int bonus to your ape and monkey companions of low level, and give them rapid reload, rapid shot and firearm proficiency.......... the value of four gorillas with double hack-butts may seem laughable..... but it's even more laughable when they're shooting your enemies and you've casted haste :D


Can't you do this with a straight gnome packmaster hunter?


Packmaster hunter or pack lord druid is where I got the ability to split the AC up. Could be caviler as well.

I know animal ally works and all the boon companions work. Pretty sure that Beast rider effects all ACs and not just one.

I think that bloodline and the robe work. Any evidence against it? I can see this going the other way.


Can a half elf take an elfin multiclass bonus?
The best chose for this build would be assimir but you can not take that one.

That idea of gorilla gunners is scary. They might even hit touch AC.

Switching to a cleric with the chivalry inquisition and the animal domain frees up a feat since I do not need to be an elf any more. We lose 9 from multiclass bonus but gain 19 from level. If we take Boon companion again that will add 4 from that feat and 2 from beast rider. Total gain is 16 levels.

102 total levels for 5 full level animal companions.

Cleric is nice full caster as well.

Even if we dropped all the boon companions we would still have 4 ACs. Team work feats would be nice to fill in here.

If I was doing this for a real game I think I would want to be a hunter or caviler to make the AC better with teamwork feats. With boon companions x2 and beast rider I can have to full level rhinos at 12th level.


If we lose EH it will cost us 15 from the feat and 4 from the robe.
Cleric = 19 + 19
Hunter = 1
Boon Companion = 16
Beast rider = 8
Animal ally = 17

Turns out we can still get 4 AC and it frees up 2 more feats.


Onyxlion wrote:
Can't you do this with a straight gnome packmaster hunter?

For some reason I was thinking the the gnome FCB for hunter was +AC level, it's not.


Be awesome if it was.

I missed the -3 in the animal domain so my total drops to 77.

If there was a way to increase cleric level for domains that solve the problem.

I do not think horsemaster would add any levels because every level already works towards this.

If does then that feat would be worth 19 level more levels.

An argument could be made for 3 to make up for the missing level from the animal domain.


Teatime42 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
A mutated bloodline was still a bloodline last I checked.
I thought that the wildblooded bloodlines were created by the Archtype, an Archtypal modification of a class mechanic (The existing bloodlines), wouldn't you then need the archetype?

PRD says, "When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline."

It does not say "select from a bigger list of bloodlines". You choose the bloodline, and also the mutated bloodline.


Mutated bloodlines ARE bloodlines.

That is RAW.

This topic has brought up several times. There has been no official ruling against this. By RAW it works.

If you don't want it to work in your own home games then you are allowed to house rule against it. Arguing that you opinion on the intention of the rules is the only possible correct opinion will get you nowhere. You will not convince anyone with the opposite opinion any more than they will convince you.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

The Eldritch Heritage/wildblooded discussion doesn't really belong in this thread. I've said my bit about it. Lune, it's a bit disingenuous to just declare your side RAW on a debated issue, however. No one is houseruling if interpretations can go both ways.

I still see some problems with the proposed rebuild as an animal domain cleric. You get a mount at full level from the inquisition, and any AC at level -3 from the domain. So right now we have (at cleric 19/hunter 1)

Mount 19
any AC 16
any AC 1

It's important to keep them separate for Boon Companion as it affects each one individually, not as a pool of druid levels you can divvy up as you like.

Animal Ally doesn't work as you have the AC and mount class features already. Beast rider gives you +2 to your mount, to a maximum of 20. You can take Boon Companion twice for your two non-maxed ACs. You could take it a third time but it does nothing for your mount which is already at lv 20. You also want to dump FCB into your domain powers, but you can't buff a domain power you don't have, so you could get +3 mount and +16 more on your AC.

So now we have:

Mount 20 (extra +4 we're not using)
any AC 20 (extra +16 we're not using)
any AC 5

Now I suppose you want to combine all that using Pack Lord and divvy it up.

So you have 19(+2 per each, floating +4) levels of mounts, and 33 (+4 per each) levels of ACs. I guess you could divide your mounts in 2 to gain two more Boon Companions, so since you presumably want to maximize lv 20 ACs, you end up with:

Mount 20(14 base, +2 beast rider, +4 Boon Comp)
Mount 15(9 base, +2 beast rider, +4 BC)
AC 20(16 base, +4 BC)
AC 20(16 base, +4 BC)
AC 1 (could add this to mount 15 I guess for a mount 16)

So I see three level 20 critters, one of which has to be a mount or in the Beast Rider list, and one level 16 mount. Not Bad, but you've spent 5 feats on it, and lost a caster level. All for an ability (animal companion) that really starts to lose utility after level 12 or so.


Debated issues do not change RAW. People are interpreting intention, not RAW. RAW is very clear on this topic; it works.

What is disingenuous is coming to a thread where the OP clearly is going by the RAW and declaring that it doesn't work. There is no RAW evidence to backup that view point and there has been no official ruling on it to change RAW. Saying that it doesn't work is stating an opinion and calling it a fact.

Dark Archive

Mathius wrote:

Race: Half orc

All favored class bonuses to Elf Oracle special
1. Racial Heritage (Elf)

I need brain bleach.


Get Divine Obedience for Erastil's thing which let's you duplicate an animal companion

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Teatime42 wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Teatime42 wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Some DMs let you use Eldricth heritage on wildblood lines and some dont. Since this isnt meant for PFS who cares? Maybe his DM houserules it, but arguing over it is stupid.

Because maybe his GM doesn't, and he's mistaken when it comes to the rules.

And, this IS in the rules question forum, where the rules matter.

Most players know what their GMs allow. To assume otherwise is dumb.

If I had a nickel for everytime my GMs told us up front everything they allow or don't allow.

I might be able to get a soda, maybe.

Again, this is the Rules forums, so a discussion of the rules belongs here.

Considering the average price of a fountain soda is a buck seventy-five, that means you have been informed at least thirty five times

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
EsperMagic wrote:
Some DMs let you use Eldricth heritage on wildblood lines and some dont. Since this isnt meant for PFS who cares? Maybe his DM houserules it, but arguing over it is stupid.

And that has stopped us when??


I do not mind the debates at all. This is theorycraft I really have no intention of every playing a character like this.

@Ryric: You are right. I do have to keep track of all what sources allow what companions. For this exercise I was just using the beast rider list for all ACs That way I can add it all up and divide how I want.

I can use animal ally but only if retrain is available. The first 3 levels would not have any AC a

Animal domain= 16 AC
Hunter = 1 AC
Inquisition = 19 Mount

If we only use beast ride animals we can add 6 to each one. That would be a level 15 mount for each one. AA will add 17 more levels. This brings us up 3 short of 4 20s. The best use would be in 2 20s and 2 18s since 19 is the same as 18.

If I can find a way to eek out 3 more levels that will get me there.

This uses 7 feats to accomplish and we lose one CL that is made up for with a trait. Even so a 3 feats may be enough to make the cleric worthwhile as it is a full caster.

To bad I can not get aassimer through racial heritage and nab celestial for all my pets.


Twin fang is nice. Would copy all of my ACs or just one? I would guess just one.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I'm not sure retraining helps you much, for two reasons. If you lose the prereqs for a feat the feat deactivates, so as soon as you gain an AC or mount from a class feature Animal Ally stops working.

Also, I don't believe there are any ways to retrain your favored class bonus so now you lose out on 7 levels of +level for AC since you don't have that domain ability yet.

Edit, oh I see a provision that keeps Animal ally working after you later gain a companion. Hmm, it still seems iffy to allow you to take a feat that requires "not x" then retrain your earlier things to have x.


With retraining you can take feats that you did not qualify for at the time you took the feat. An 11th level barbarian could have 2 feats requiring BAB +11 if he retrained one from earlier despite only one feat coming after BAB +11. If you can do that I think you could retrain a class feature that would have prevented a feat from being taken earlier.

I no longer need favored class features. If one existed for clerics it would be great but that is just the oracle.

I found two ways to gain the extra 3 levels but neither is a spell caster.

A paladin (Temple champion) and Inquisitor (Sacred Huntmaster) have a class feature for a full level AC or mount and can take the chivalry inquisition.

Inquisitor would also gain several teamwork feats and share them with all of his ACs. I think that is full of win.


Ravingdork wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
ryric wrote:
Eldritch Heritage(Sylvan) doesn't work. Sylvan isn't a bloodline, it's an archetype.

It's a bloodline AND an archetype. Therefore I'd argue that it is perfectly legal.

Eldritch Heritage merely asks if it is a bloodline. Is it a bloodline?

Yes? Then you can take it.

No? Then you can't take it.

Since it is both, and Eldritch Heritage doesn't care one lick about archetypes, I'm pretty certain you're good to go!

Actually it is not a bloodline. It is a mutated bloodline. Different thing.
A mutated bloodline was still a bloodline last I checked.

I agree, the Wild Blooded bloodline would be valid for the EH feat. I see nothing baring that. It's blood line all the same.


Lune wrote:

Mutated bloones ARE bloodlines.

That is RAW.

This topic has brought up several times. There has been no official ruling against this. By RAW it works.

If you don't want it to work in your own home games then you are allowed to house rule against it. Arguing that you opinion on the intention of the rules is the only possible correct opinion will get you nowhere. You will not convince anyone with the opposite opinion any more than they will convince you.

actually when I look up bloodlines in the PRD. It doestnt show the mutated bloodlines.

With that said, these bloodlines are not simply bloodlines else they would be listed with the others.

So if you can show me where I can find the text where it says the mutated bloodlines are the same as the regular ones, then I will agree it is RAW. Otherwise stop acting like your Stance is superior to everyone else's. Especially when the other side has already stated that either sidecould be correct and this is not the forum for that ddiscussion.


Does PFS have a ruling on this? If they would let it go I will take it until we otherwise. If not then I will not use it.

I really like the idea of an inquisitor with 4 level 20 AC off the Beast rider list.

Elephant has trample
Triceratops and Rhino have powerful charge
Pteranodons mean flying mounts for the whole party.
Stegosaurus has trip

Get the Stegosauruses IUS, WF, Combat reflexes, and feral combat training to go with that trip.

6 teamwork feats can be quite nice.
Lookout
Outflank
Paired opportunists
Precise strike
Coordinated Charge (power chargers)

tandem trip (stergo)
coordinated maneuvers (stego)

Still have 3 feats to spend. What would an inquisitor like this best benefit from? Mounted combat and the triple damage one along with power attack?


Wildblooded is an archetype. Even if you allowed it, the Sylvan bloodline should be excluded as it replaces the bloodline power and the arcana. Eldritch Heritage only gives you the bloodline power.


Mathius wrote:

Does PFS have a ruling on this? If they would let it go I will take it until we otherwise. If not then I will not use it.

PFS has 2 rulings that would affect this.

1st. You can only have 1 combat participating Animal Companion, that is in the Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play.

2nd. A game developer posted on the forums a clarification (or change) to the rules Here That an Animal Companion's HD cannot exceed their masters by more than 1. This hasn't made it to the FAQ yet, so for regular play it isn't a binding rule, but I believe PFS players have to abide by clarifications made on the forums. (could be wrong on that,)


Neither of those effect eldritch heritage. It does open the door to a level 15 AC for PFS play. An oracle, paladin, inquisitor or cleric can pull that off.

For PFS the limit of 1 AC makes good sense. Just like the crafting thing.

I thought I read somewhere that a AC gain through EH was accepted into PFS play.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:

actually when I look up bloodlines in the PRD. It doestnt show the mutated bloodlines.

With that said, these bloodlines are not simply bloodlines else they would be listed with the others.

So if you can show me where I can find the text where it says the mutated bloodlines are the same as the regular ones, then I will agree it is RAW. Otherwise stop acting like your Stance is superior to everyone else's. Especially when the other side has already stated that either sidecould be correct and this is not the forum for that ddiscussion.

I see. So it is ok for you to act superior, but not me? How about I keep acting the same way and if you judge it as superior then I just take it as a compliment? :)

You see, the burden of proof here doesn't lie with me. I do not need to prove that Wildblooded Bloodlines are bloodlines. They may be mutated bloodlines, archetypes and other things that do not disclude them from being bloodlines. But they are still bloodlines.

It is just as Ravingdork said earlier:

Ravingdork wrote:

It's a bloodline AND an archetype. Therefore I'd argue that it is perfectly legal.

Eldritch Heritage merely asks if it is a bloodline. Is it a bloodline?

Yes? Then you can take it.

The link that Durngrun posted shows that it is an Archetype. That does not disclude it from also being a Bloodline. It just makes it have to conform to guidelines for both.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Since people seem intent on discussing it I'll go ahead and lay out my argument against EH taking wildblooded bloodlines.

1. Eldritch heritage says to choose a sorcerer bloodline. Wildblooded bloodlines are not sorcerer bloodlines, they are bloodlines available to a sorcerer archetype. They are even called mutated bloodlines, not sorcerer bloodlines. Adjectives are important. Being given access to a class ability does not give you access to all archetype modified versions of that class ability.

2. The Wildblooded bloodlines themselves aren't complete. They are normal bloodlines with some changes, so they are not full bloodlines on their own. You can't tell what Sage does without also referring to Arcane. That's because the Sage bloodline is the same bloodline as Arcane, just changed by your archetype. If you don't have the archetype there is no way to make the changes from Arcane to Sage.

3. Wildblooded bloodlines aren't even listed as bloodlines. they are in no section called "bloodlines," they are in the Wildblooded archetype description. Almost as if they were archetype abilities. Huh.

4. The rules for accessing the Wildblooded abilities even say to choose a normal bloodline, then choose an associated mutated one. But those rules are part of the archetype. There is no way for a sorcerer to select a wildblooded bloodline without also taking the archetype. if a full sorcerer can't select these things, why does it make sense that a feat could do so?

5. RAW they aren't bloodlines. They are packages of archetype abilities that can sub in for other bloodline abilities. If you were a wildblooded sorcerer already, and you chose to take EH for a different bloodline, I could see an argument that you could choose to modify your EH bloodline with the archetype abilities since you have the archetype.

Basically, everything indicates that the entries under Wildblooded are in fact archetype abilities and not self-contained bloodlines. Feats that grant class features can't grant archetype versions unless they say they do. Amateur Gunslinger doesn't grant you Pistolero deeds.

After all that, even if EH worked to select mutated bloodlines, it still wouldn't work for Sylvan because you need both the arcana and the 1st level power to get an AC and EH doesn't give you that.


Ryric: You have successfully proven that Wildblooded Bloodlines are Archetypes. Congratulations. This does not disprove that they are not also Bloodlines. It is right in their name.

You can not say that "RAW they aren't bloodlines" and then call someone "disingenuous" when they point out that your opinion is not RAW. RAW, all Bloodlines are Bloodlines.

As previously stated, you have a lovely opinion. But it is just that. This is a hotly debated topic but what people are debating is intention, not RAW. RAW is very clear.

Maybe some day we will get what the intention was out of a developer. But even that doesn't change RAW. RAW only changes when errata changes it.

In the mean time feel free to rule how you want in your home games. You do not need to argue with people on the internet to do that.

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