4 level 20 animal companions and full casting to boot.

[Rogar Stonebow]

Mathius wrote:

Miss that line in the feat. Oh well.

Yeah I have made that mistake many times.

[voska66]

I see argument for both sides. I don't think there is any RAW way you take this with out developer input.

Like for example I can accept Ryic's argument. At the same time I can that argument to make it work as well. Since wildblooded are sorcerers than mutated blood line are Sorcerer blood line as only a sorcerer can choose them.

I admit I'm biased though as GM I've made many NPC sorcerers with wildblooded bloodlines and I prefer that rules say I'm right as this is something I don't want to house rule.

[Lune]

Still looking for an answer to this:

Me, earlier wrote:

If we take the rules out of the equation for a moment (I know, weird, right?) and look at it from a logical perspective...

Eldritch Heritage is a feat that you take to represent what?

A Wildblooded Bloodline represents what?

I have been accused of being closed minded. Are we really going to say that it is not possible for a being to have been born with Wildblooded Bloodline that ISN'T a Sorcerer?

[Rogar Stonebow]

Lune wrote:

Still looking for an answer to this:

Me, earlier wrote:

If we take the rules out of the equation for a moment (I know, weird, right?) and look at it from a logical perspective...

Eldritch Heritage is a feat that you take to represent what?

A Wildblooded Bloodline represents what?

I have been accused of being closed minded. Are we really going to say that it is not possible for a being to have been born with Wildblooded Bloodline that ISN'T a Sorcerer?

Have a cookie!

[Ravingdork]

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Lune wrote:

Still looking for an answer to this:

Me, earlier wrote:

If we take the rules out of the equation for a moment (I know, weird, right?) and look at it from a logical perspective...

Eldritch Heritage is a feat that you take to represent what?

A Wildblooded Bloodline represents what?

I have been accused of being closed minded. Are we really going to say that it is not possible for a being to have been born with Wildblooded Bloodline that ISN'T a Sorcerer?

Have a cookie!

Have two!

[ryric]

Lune wrote:

Still looking for an answer to this:

Me, earlier wrote:

If we take the rules out of the equation for a moment (I know, weird, right?) and look at it from a logical perspective...

Eldritch Heritage is a feat that you take to represent what?

A Wildblooded Bloodline represents what?

I have been accused of being closed minded. Are we really going to say that it is not possible for a being to have been born with Wildblooded Bloodline that ISN'T a Sorcerer?

Totally answered that upthread. I'll repeat since you missed.

I am really saying that. Well sort of. Since, for example, Sage is just an archetype modification of Arcane, if you have Sage heritage in your ancestry, all you get is the stuff from Arcane if you take EH, as you don't have the extra training/insight/wherewithal(i.e the archetype) to transmute the Arcane stuff into the Sage stuff.

So you can have Linnorm or Sylvan or whatever heritage all you want, but the abilities you get from it if you take the feat are Draconic or Fey because you don't have that special "zing" to shove it into the weirder version.

[Rogar Stonebow]

Ravingdork wrote:

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Lune wrote:

Still looking for an answer to this:

Me, earlier wrote:

If we take the rules out of the equation for a moment (I know, weird, right?) and look at it from a logical perspective...

Eldritch Heritage is a feat that you take to represent what?

A Wildblooded Bloodline represents what?

I have been accused of being closed minded. Are we really going to say that it is not possible for a being to have been born with Wildblooded Bloodline that ISN'T a Sorcerer?

Have a cookie!

Have two!

Roflmaowpug

Btw your one of my fav9rite posters

[Rory]

Lune wrote:

Rory: Whether or not the animal companion is an arcana or not does not disclude it from being a Bloodline Power. It is, in fact, listed as a Bloodline Power.

I concur. It is listed as a bloodline power by RAW. It also counts as the bloodline arcana by RAW.

Lune wrote:

While Eldritch Heritage says that you do not gain any of the other Bloodline Abilities,

Correct. You cannot gain a bloodline arcana thru Eldritch Heritage by RAW.

Lune wrote:

it also does not say that you lose your Bloodline Power. That is something that is being read into the rules that is not there. That is why it is not RAW.

You may gain the bloodline power, sure, but you do not gain the ability to get the animal companion, because the animal companion also counts as the bloodlines arcana. What you would have chosen is an entirely useless bloodline power without the bloodline arcana class feature to back it up.

This is also exampled by an Archaeologist Bard picking the Slow Reactions rogue talent. They would have a useless rogue talent without the Sneak Attack ability to back it up.

*****************************************

Slow Reactions* (Ex): Opponents damaged by the rogue's sneak attack can't make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.

[Lune]

Had a couple of cookies, came back, saw people still interested in the discussion.

Rory: So you believe that the designer's intention was for people taking Eldritch Heritage: Sylvan was for it to give them nothing?

[Rory]

Lune wrote:

Had a couple of cookies, came back, saw people still interested in the discussion.

Rory: So you believe that the designer's intention was for people taking Eldritch Heritage: Sylvan was for it to give them nothing?

I do not think that the Sylvan bloodline had a bearing on intention for Eldritch Heritage at all. I think that's just the way the cards deal out with the two items in question.

[Mathius]

Lune: I would argue that the intention was either you can not take EH with wildblooded bloodlines or that you can not take it for Sylvan.

It would be like an archeologist bard taking a rogue talent that helps sneak attack.

[ryric]

I believe they were designed by two different people and so any interaction between them can't be intentional. But there are lots of feat choices that don't do anything. A barbarian can take Quicken Spell. Or Spell Focus. A fighter can take Weapon Specialization(net). Just because a feat is or has a legal choice doesn't mean that every possible choice is useful. I still think that Sylvan isn't a legal choice, mind you, but there is a precedent for feats that "do nothing."

[strayshift]

Read and understood the arguments and can see the validity of both sides of it (a cookie please). My 5 pence worth.

Wild-blooded Sorcerers are an archetype that varies (the mutation) the bloodline arcana and at least one power of an existing bloodline. At no point does this say that this is not a bloodline, merely a mutated version of an existing bloodline. This term (mutated bloodline) is not used in any other formal rules context and so I would be inclined to say that a mutated bloodline is essentially still a bloodline. Where the term used elsewhere, in a different context (i.e. to say that it isn't a bloodline) I would re-examine that opinion. Without wishing to be too spurious it would be like arguing a fighter archetype is not a fighter.

The more specific issue about Eldritch Heritage is best broken down into two questions:
1. Does a Mutated Bloodline qualify for Eldritch Heritage? I would say yes (for seasons set out above).
2. Should this give me an animal companion which replaces both the bloodline arcana and a bloodline power? As a player and a DM I would say no because Eldritch Heritage says that you get the 1st level bloodline power and that you do not gain any other bloodline abilities (as said the animal companion replacing the power and the arcana).

Still waiting for that cookie!

Anyhow the whole thing would benefit from a rules clarification, until then you play what you want I suppose.

G

[Rory]

ryric wrote:

I still think that Sylvan isn't a legal choice, mind you,

Sylvan is definitely not a stand alone bloodline that can be picked. That much is defined by not being able to take it with the Crossblooded archetype.

The question on legality therefore comes down to the matter of can you assume you are an archetype of sorcerer by only taking the Eldritch Heritage feat? If so, that sets an interesting precedence.

I can think of a very nice oracle Revelation locked in an archetype. If the ACG grants revelations (via feats or classes), then is that revelation then accessible as well?

I looked for Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, etc., but I didn't see any locked into a particular archetype.

[Lune]

strayshift: So what bloodline power would you get? There is only one bloodline power listed for Sylvan.

To be clear an animal companion at CL-5 is fairly weak for a 2 feat investment. It isn't like you are getting more for that bloodline choice than the others. For a third feat (Boon Companion) you could even get it at CL-1! ...still pretty meh for a 3 feat investment.

[ryric]

Rory, there is another feat that can give you class features. Amateur Gunslinger gives you a 1st level gunslinger deed. There are gunslinger archetypes which change out your first level deeds, like Pistolero. I also don't believe that you can use Amateur Gunslinger to choose Pistolero deeds. it is exactly analogous to the EH/Wildblooded situation.

A crossblooded sorcerer can't choose mutated bloodlines. So they are not even available to every sorcerer.

It is still my position that the mutated bloodlines don't exist as their own things. You take a normal bloodline like Fey and the archetype alters that normal bloodline into Sylvan. You don't just choose Sylvan because it doesn't exist on its own.

Strayshift, if a fighter archetype gets some class feature instead of a bonus feat, can any fighter just choose that class feature rather than a bonus feat? By your logic it's still a "fighter" option. The mutated bloodlines are similarly locked behind an archetype - they are not just "sorcerer bloodlines" but "wildblooded sorcerer bloodlines" and the extra adjective is important. (Actually if you read RAW they are "mutated bloodlines associated with a (unmutated) bloodline.")

Lune, to turn your argument around a little bit, if the wildblooded archetype was not needed to access the mutated bloodlines, what exactly would taking that archetype do?

[Rory]

ryric wrote:

Rory, there is another feat that can give you class features. Amateur Gunslinger gives you a 1st level gunslinger deed. There are gunslinger archetypes which change out your first level deeds, like Pistolero. I also don't believe that you can use Amateur Gunslinger to choose Pistolero deeds. it is exactly analogous to the EH/Wildblooded situation.

Thanks for the example!

There is actually a thread about this very topic. It is "unclear" with many posters being so certain archetype bloodlines are not allowed that they refuse to even hit a FAQ button.

This is obviously a question frequently asked, so FAQ worthy.

[Rogar Stonebow]

Lune wrote:

Had a couple of cookies, came back, saw people still interested in the discussion.

Rory: So you believe that the designer's intention was for people taking Eldritch Heritage: Sylvan was for it to give them nothing?

It is of my, and many others opinions that you would not have access to sylvan at all through EH. The better question atm is to ask if you took EH arcane, do you get an arcane bond or familiar.

[ryric]

Rory wrote:

ryric wrote:

Rory, there is another feat that can give you class features. Amateur Gunslinger gives you a 1st level gunslinger deed. There are gunslinger archetypes which change out your first level deeds, like Pistolero. I also don't believe that you can use Amateur Gunslinger to choose Pistolero deeds. it is exactly analogous to the EH/Wildblooded situation.

Thanks for the example!

There is actually a thread about this very topic. It is "unclear" with many posters being so certain archetype bloodlines are not allowed that they refuse to even hit a FAQ button.

This is obviously a question frequently asked, so FAQ worthy.

Oh I hit the FAQ button on most threads where there is lively discussion, and FAQing is desired. I may be fairly strident about my interpretation here but I freely admit I may be wrong about it. I'm guessing that it's a low priority topic as it is fairly niche.

[strayshift]

Lune wrote:

strayshift: So what bloodline power would you get? There is only one bloodline power listed for Sylvan.

To be clear an animal companion at CL-5 is fairly weak for a 2 feat investment. It isn't like you are getting more for that bloodline choice than the others. For a third feat (Boon Companion) you could even get it at CL-1! ...still pretty meh for a 3 feat investment.

I'd have to say... none. Because you are getting both the bloodline arcana and the feat for that mutated bloodline. Choose another one if you want to go there.