Design Manager
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The Seize the Opportunity line of feats has been condensed into one feat, and given slightly more utility:
Seize the Opportunity [Combat]
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
Benefit: When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity.
Noted it over on GitP as well, but that should probably read "...(such as a bull rush, dirty trick, or grapple)..." since you can already disarm on an AoO.
So Wrath Daevic can now have fun just as his Justice brother?
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Design Manager
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So Wrath Daevic can now have fun just as his Justice brother?
It opens the door for that a bit, but the stacking issues are eliminated and the farther reaching consequences have been reined in. StO is still a damage multiplier, but it's less of one, and now really just serves as a "portal" for abilities you invest in separately instead of a stacking steroid boost.
I am a fan of how its been changed. My future Justice Daevics will definitely still wish to take it though, especially since I already like taking the Bull-rush stuff with them. It is nice to have options.
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I am extremely disappointed.
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I'd say it's much better now. Less powerful and makes Vital Strike line somewhat viable option for reach lockdown builds.
It's almost as powerful on builds that stack damage dice, but dramatically worse for anyone with standard weapons and functionally does almost nothing unless you have other feats that aren't prerequisites (like Improved Maneuver feats so you don't provoke an AoO in return, or Vital Strike itself).
And for people stacking damage dice, it has the exact same problem with manufactured AoOs that the original did. This is not an improvement.
The Seize the Opportunity line of feats has been condensed into one feat, and given slightly more utility:
Seize the Opportunity [Combat]
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
Benefit: When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity.
Definitely an improvement, but I still see it getting more use from Huge Druid Hippos, Size Stacking Aegis reach builds, Reach stacking Bloodragers, ect than from Bull Rushers, Dirty Trickers, Stealers, or what have you.
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Design Manager
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It's almost as powerful on builds that stack damage dice, but dramatically worse for anyone with standard weapons and functionally does almost nothing unless you have other feats that aren't prerequisites (like Improved Maneuver feats so you don't provoke an AoO in return, or Vital Strike itself).
And for people stacking damage dice, it has the exact same problem with manufactured AoOs that the original did. This is not an improvement.
It's literally an improvement in every way. Damage multiplication is greatly reduced, utility is improved, and cost for gain is now much more in line with the expectations of the game. It's accessible by and benefits a larger pool of characters and builds, and while you can still get to some pretty substantial AoOs, you pay more and get less to reach that point (a good thing in this instance).
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So I wrote a thing...
interesting article.
concerning solutions, what if the caveat was based off of relative HD rather than CR?
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Design Manager
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So I wrote a thing...interesting article.
concerning solutions, what if the caveat was based off of relative HD rather than CR?
I had made a similar suggestion once upon a time, something along the lines of "if this ability is used on a target whose hit die are less than the initiator's -3, this ability has no effect."
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I am assuming this is the appropriate thread to discuss this in.
So yes, consider some cleverly worded caveat, such as "half" or "-3," or what have you, whose purpose in to exclude "kittens" (and other cheap hacks - collectively referred to as "kittens" for argument's sake) while including a maximum number of enemies who pose a sufficient and/or thematic challenge.
My question is this: for any particular HD caveat, what consequences flow from the exclusion of kittens that might be unintended? And, more importantly, for a given HD caveat, would these consequences be tolerable?
Tolerable? For example, let's say we have a corner-case which consequently excludes [insert enemy type], in which an initiator cannot [insert cool ability] under these circumstances. Is this altogether an intolerable situation? Does this absolutely ruin the [cool ability] if it isn't able to be [used/recovered/triggered] under such circumstances as fighting this [enemy type]?
My gut is that many unintended consequences are pretty tolerable, especially because the PoW classes are all multi-dimensional (compare to CRB Fighter). but I might be wrong.
So on the kitten thing, here's an issue that I don't think was addressed. Its a slightly more complicated infinite healing trick, but if you get yourself a low damage merciful weapon you can beat your friends to heal them.
In Pathfinder, healing lethal damage heals an equal amount of non-lethal damage so if you combine say Silver Crane's Blessing (heal 2d6 boost) and Silver Knight's Blade (deal +4d6, heal 4d6 strike) with attacks from a +1 merciful gauntlet, you can heal your allies 6d6 (avg. 21) lethal and nonlethal HP while dealing 1d3+STR+4d6 (avg. 15.5+STR) nonlethal damage. You can do this every other "round" outside of combat. And since your allies should be within your HD or CR range, you don't even need a bag of cats for infinite out of combat healing.
In those cases implementing a CR restriction or HD req also causes sad consequences.
EX:
you get jumped by bandits and your abilities fail to work because they're too weak.
For these moments I think DM fiat is the way to go.
For these moments I think DM fiat is the way to go.
and
no reasonable GM would allow it
are about all needs to be applied to the Bag of Rats 'problem' IMO
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what about a HD caveat that uses a definition of the word "enemy," "opponent," or "foe"?
Insain Dragoon,
I think your situation is less a problem than you think, because, even though you haven't set a specific HD caveat (like "half" or "-3"), assuming we were going for some sort of "less," these bandits might very well be able to be dispatched by the initiator by ordinary attack rolls, or single uses of maneuvers, and so, it kind of breaks even. no?
mach1.9pants,
In all cases "rule 0" applies. But, from a design perspective, it shouldn't have to go there, and abilities are best designed with that in mind.
what about a HD caveat that uses a definition of the word "enemy," "opponent," or "foe"?
The trouble here, at least in PF, is that the only workable way to define opponents/enemies/foes is to let the player(s) define them, which doesn't close the loop but does keep the entire rest of the system functioning.
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Definitely an improvement, but I still see it getting more use from Huge Druid Hippos, Size Stacking Aegis reach builds, Reach stacking Bloodragers, ect than from Bull Rushers, Dirty Trickers, Stealers, or what have you.The Seize the Opportunity line of feats has been condensed into one feat, and given slightly more utility:
Seize the Opportunity [Combat]
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
Benefit: When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity.
slap a high DX req on it?
or, state Deadly Agility as a pre-req, and say something more eloquent than "while using any finesse weapon, you may..."
Why would a dex user want it?
Those maneuvers require str or Agile Maneuvers to do. Vital strike shenanigans don't usually work with dex because size increases generally lower dex. Also lower damage dice on a lot of finesse weapons.
This feat is far from intended for a dex fighter.
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Design Manager
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Why would a dex user want it?
Those maneuvers require str or Agile Maneuvers to do. Vital strike shenanigans don't usually work with dex because size increases generally lower dex. Also lower damage dice on a lot of finesse weapons.
This feat is far from intended for a dex fighter.
Not really true; the feat is awesome for, say, a Ninja with a kusari-gama who wants to blind-lock the battlefield, a DEX-based Tetori who wants to group up lots of enemies, etc. Before, it was only good for one type of character; now, it helps a wide range.
Also worth noting, you need Agile Maneuvers or Weapon Finesse if the maneuver is performed with a weapon, which most can be, so there's not really any hidden tax for DEX characters that wasn't there already, and which they wouldn't already take.
Hippo druids may be able to game this a bit, but for Strong Jaw / Wildshape shenanigans you have to have at least 7 levels of druid, which means you can't get your GVS damage until 18th level at the earliest, at the cost of all of your spells above 4th level. Also, most of the big damage die forms are going to inflict a DEX penalty, meaning fewer hits to get their big hits, and more MAD to have all the pieces. Remember, Hippo comes with a -4 to DEX, so you're losing two potential attacks and lowering your AC, initiative, and DEX skills for your damage boost. Those hurt a bit more thanks to the spellcasting you trade away to qualify for GVS. You're also spending basically every feat you have on this one trick.
Cost of all spells above 4th level? Are you refering to Druids who don't take Natural Spell?
Also Blind Locking Ninjas? Technically a thing since greater invis helps the accuracy issues involved.
I can see how this would work for a lot of Dex builds, but Bull Rush, Grapple, Steal, and maybe others would require agile maneuvers.
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Design Manager
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Cost of all spells above 4th level? Are you refering to Druids who don't take Natural Spell?
Also Blind Locking Ninjas? Technically a thing since greater invis helps the accuracy issues involved.
I can see how this would work for a lot of Dex builds, but Bull Rush, Grapple, Steal, and maybe others would require agile maneuvers.
Bull Rush and Grapple can both be done with weapons so AM not necessarily required. And lockdown ninjas are awesome; during the playtests for the first Path of War that was the only martial class that we managed to get to consistently tromp on the Stalker's numbers, though that guy used the trip chain instead of Dirty Trick.
As to the spells lost, I'm saying the Druid is 3/4 BAB so he'll never qualify for Greater Vital Strike unless he dips a full BAB class long enough to bring him to 16 BAB by 19th level, which means he's trading away pretty much all of his spellcasting to get this trick off, as well as at least 6 of his 10 feats.
What weapon lets you grapple/bullrush? Additionally are they finesseabe since this is under the context of Dex fighters.
any weapon can be used to bull rush. In addition the Impact weapon enchantment lets you add your enhancement bonus to your CMB for bull rushes.
As for grapple, whips can be used to grapple if you have greater whip mastery.
I'd say AoMF, while technically not a weapon, should add its enhancement bonus to CMB for grapple. And it's finessable.
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Design Manager
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any weapon can be used to bull rush. In addition the Impact weapon enchantment lets you add your enhancement bonus to your CMB for bull rushes.
As for grapple, whips can be used to grapple if you have greater whip mastery.
The kusarigama has the grapple property (though for reasons not entirely explicable it isn't finessable). Generally I see it used in builds where STR and DEX are weighted equally so they can capitalize on its large threat radius. Given that you clearly can grapple with the weapon, I've always let the player initiate a grapple under the standard action economy rules, but I'll admit the rules are a little fuzzy on that front.
The mancatcher requires you to make a grapple check to use its special ability, though the somewhat ambiguous wording makes it unclear what the action economy involved there is; it would definitely work with Seize the Opportunity though.
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Design Manager
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Here's the official FAQ blog post on weapons you can use with combat maneuvers.
There's basically a common sense clause for maneuvers that normally don't make sense with a weapon but might on a case by case basis; so GM fiat and table variation pretty much is the official RAW.
In other words a dex based grappler or Bull Rusher would indeed need Agile Maneuver. That's exactly what I've been arguing :/
From that FAQ: Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.
I am going to hold onto that link as an argument against needing this Impact Weapon enchantment that I so despise. I would love to be able to bull-rush people with my shield's enhancement bonus without buying a +2 enchant.
mach1.9pants,
In all cases "rule 0" applies. But, from a design perspective, it shouldn't have to go there, and abilities are best designed with that in mind.
See I disagree with this premise. By restricting your self to that you are operating like a normal computer: if x and y are z, then A. But RPG are quantum computers cos of the DM, it need not be the case all the time. Anyway not hugely relevant to the discussion so I'll leave it there
I took a deeper look over the Piercing Lance discipline to provide some feedback for it. I am comparing it to other damage based disciplines (Specifically Primal Fury and Scarlet Throne)
This is what I have so far:
This is a very damage oriented discipline, and measures up well to its predecessors.There are a few maneuvers, and 1 stance that I have problems with, as detailed below.
Getting to use line attacks as a martial feels gratifying. I love this part.
Stance of the Piercing Lance scales faster and stronger than Scarlet Einhander despite both being 1st level stances. Stance of the Piercing Lance ends up granting +3d6 damage, +3 dodge bonus to AC and +5 feet of reach. Scarlet Einhancer grants +2d6 damage and +5 shield bonus to AC. Scarlet Einhander was previously one of the strongest first level stances, but required the character to wield a one-handed weapon in one hand. Stance of the Piercing Lance on the other hand only requires a discipline weapon.
Levering Hammer is a 3rd level maneuver that inflicts 4d6 extra damage and has a "save or be knocked prone" effect. Disparity Blow from Primal Fury does 2d6 extra damage and grants a free trip attempt.
Dismounting Thrust does not say that you must target the foe's mount, despite giving a penalty to their ride check for mounted combat.
Lance Commander's Stance is a perfect example of why Target of Opportunity was changed, and also an example of a stance that very much wants the new target of opportunity. Nothing wrong here. Its as strong as an 8th level stance should be.
Piercing Charge of the Dread Lancer is way cool. One of my favorite capstone maneuvers of all time.
Adam B. 135 did you mean Seize the Opportunity instead of Target of Opportunity?
Adam B. 135 did you mean Seize the Opportunity instead of Target of Opportunity?
Yes I did. Wow, what a great mistake to make.
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Announcement Time!
I have for you here, a new, preliminary release of our latest Playtest Document. Here we have for you six new archetypes for preexisting classes that you can use to add Path of War maneuvers to your Pathfinder Base and Core Classes.
Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document
As always, this is a live document and may be subject to change without notice. Peruse and enjoy!
Monk doesn't get Broken Blade.
Paladin loses Lay on Hands.
Warder archetype doesn't have a header of its name.
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I would add the following to the OP, but it's TOO LATE TO EDIT:
Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document
Monk doesn't get Broken Blade.
Yep. Feature, not bug.
Paladin loses Lay on Hands.
Yep. Replaced with another ability.
Warder archetype doesn't have a header of its name.
We'll fix that >.>
Monk doesn't get Broken Blade.
As Knives stated, this was intentional. There were several reasons why.
Flurry of Blows went the way of the dodo with this archetype (along with stunning fist) to make room for the maneuvers. The archetype itself is intended as a tanking archetype, while Broken Blade is much more offensively oriented, it didn't fit with the theme of the Monk of the Silver Fist from a mechanical standpoint.
Fluff wise, Monks of the Silver Fist is much more spiritual than physical. He uses his ki to curse enemies, mark targets and protect his allies (Eternal Guardian, Iron Tortoise and Class Abilities). In this case, Steel Serpent was much more in tune with the mystic aspects of the monk than Broken Blade.
From a mechanical standpoint, we were already trading away Flurry of Blows for maneuvers, so I felt it inappropriate to just add "Flurry of Blows, but better" back in as a discipline. To add to this, Steel Serpent allows the Monk of the Silver Fist to target enemy ability scores, which can be invaluable when tanking against Casters or fighters, whether you target their casting stat to remove bonus spells and lower DCs or you target their lower stats to put them out of the fight much earlier.
Lastly, it adds a secondary theme to the class of relying on single powerful hits, not unlike the Decisive Strike ACF of the 3.5 Monk, of which I was a fan.
The Monk of the Silver Fist is not your daddy's monk, he's cool, he's new and he knows how to Tank and Spank with the best of them.
Paladin loses Lay on Hands.
Yes, Lay on Hands has been traded for the Guardian's Shield ability.
Instead of healing after the fact, and dealing with the repercussions of maybe not getting to an ally in time, Guardian's Shield allows the Pious Blade to take a more active role in protecting allies by providing them with a protective shield that gives them Temporary HP and protects against status effects. Lay on Hands is a lot less necessary thanks to Silver Crane being a native discipline for the Pious blade, so it was a good opportunity to help the Paladin better fill his intended role.
Its a different style of tanking/healing, but preventative actions are still highly effective, and create some interesting interactions, since Guardian's Shield prevents a status effect from ever applying in the first place. It means there's less for the paladin and her party to worry about because they'll have a buffer zone between them and death.
Warder archetype doesn't have a header of its name.
I went ahead and fixed this, thank you for the catch.
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Now that Warpaths are published not only on DSP forum, I must say their price looks off. Paladin loses 4th level spellcasting for maneuvers. Barbarian loses 5 feat equivalents for maneuvers. Inquisitor or warpriest lose... one 1/day power and one stat replacement for skills or two powers with limited uses per day for maneuvers and 4 feat equivalents?
Yeah Warpaths are kind of no brainers on most Inquisitors, Clerics, and Warpriests.
Also loving the Stalker archetype! Now that is something worth trading your Ki pool out for!
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Also loving the Stalker archetype! Now that is something worth trading your Ki pool out for!
As long as there's no major issues with the archetype, I should be able to update the Privateer and bring back the Ki Pool for them.
Martial alchemists was completely not what I expected. The fact that it was done with no archetype was even more unexpected. All in all, I think its delivery is actually very cool. It lets an alchemist decide exactly how "martial" he will be. This fits with the fact that alchemists are already very customizable.
I like Primal Disciple a great deal. You trade out a lot of rage powers, but its worth not being forced to take beast totem. I get way more fun options out of rage powers now that I have maneuvers (one of which still allows pouncing).
I am in love with the Monk of the Silver Fist. Gauntlet Monk is number one! He will definitely be built differently than my other monks. Feels like he wants a lot more HP along with the normal amount of monk AC I want (which is high). They make me think of Allegiants of the Order of the Fist from Privateer Press, using gauntlets to lay the smackdown on their foes.
I don't really like Knight Disciple. You trade out your 4th level spellcasting to get maneuvers at 1st level. It feels funny. Recovery mechanic is solid though, I like it a lot. I noticed Crusader's Training does not replace any features. This is probably intentional, but I wanted to mention it in case it wasn't. Guardian's shield and Merciful Shield are definitely top notch though. I love them as mechanics.
The Vigilante is great! Definitely everything I want out of a non-mystic stalker. That said, it has no capstone since Retributive Ki requires a ki point to be expended.
Demon-hand Warlock is very cool conceptually. I like the idea of his weapon being a spirit claw. I think the archetype needs to do more with it though. Doesn't feel like its doing enough.
The new Stalker archetype does some things that I've been really wanting from a Stalker archetype.
Stalkers are sneaky, dangerous, and mystical. This is great and the mechanics back it up.
With this archetype we can make street savvy Stalkers that have mechanics backing up the claim.
Some feedback is maybe making a few more knowledge skills available for the archetype like History, Geography, Dungeoneering, and possbily Nobility.
Also, ironically, the Vigilante makes the Stalker's capstone non-existent. Maybe make it into "retributive Inspiration"?
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I'll see what can be done about the capstone for the vigilante. More class skills certainly wouldn't be out of the question as well.
I have a small confession to make: the Monk of the Silver Fist was an entirely selfish archetype. I've been dying to play a gauntlet/greave wearing monk for years now, but there was never a way to do it effectively, so I jumped at the chance to put that playstyle in the game. I regret nothing.
.... Who is Jude Mathis?
Yeah I love the Monk of the Silver Fist. It's something new in Pathfinder and the closest I can get to playing Jude.
.... Who is Jude Mathis?
Yeah I love the Monk of the Silver Fist. It's something new in Pathfinder and the closest I can get to playing Jude.
God that game was good. Actually, I've never played a bad Tales game. They're all amazing.
I was a little bothered with Jude's super obsession with Milla (I mean, I get it, she's hot, but so little personality), but he was probably my favorite Tales character to actually do combat with. Him and Regal from Tales of Symphonia.
Glad archetypes get more, but for a lot of Clerics they get to pick two domains off a list of mostly s*#@ ones. Suddenly a CoDzilla is born with little effort and no feat expenditure, just trading away a bad domain.
Inquisitions are, for the most part, a joke and a warpath is only beneficial in 90% of cases.
Blessings are also very s#!%, unless they go with the swift action summoning route.
Warpaths represent a power bump for just about every class that gets em.
As for Jude Mathis, I liked him as a character more than most Tales protagonists. He was resourceful, competent, and capable of contributing to the group outside of combat. It was refreshing to play a JRPG protagonist worthy of undertaking such a momentous adventure.
I was thinking of these guys when I read it: Allegiant of the Order of the Fist. In their setting they follow Menoth, the God of civilization, walls, and humanity. So protecting is a thing they do too. It doesn't hurt that they also have big metal gauntlets that they used to knock people silly.
And Deuxhero, I think we did notice. Its just that giving up a domain is not losing a lot. I'd say its like losing 2-3 rage powers if you only give up 1 domain. Losing Blessings is an even better trade-off because honestly they just suck. I'd trade both blessings without hesitation to get the better progression.
I'm not familiar with the Allegiant of the Order of the Fist, but they look like badasses, so more power to them.
Warpaths are very powerful, they're a bit more costly for Clerics, since they actually get access to all the stuff a domain has to offer, while Inquisitors have literally no reason to take a domain (With the singular exception of the Feather subdomain for super perception and animal companion shenanigans).
I've tried to get hold of Novawurmson about them, but since they're his project it'll be up to him what changes need to be made.