Aggro-Leash Fix / Kiting Nerf


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Goblin Squad Member

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Aggro-Leash Fix

This is a few proposed fixes to the aggro system used in place of standard leashing, that should make it a much harder to abuse it, especially through any form of kiting.

Goblin Squad Member

Go vote this up, ranged attack fans.

Goblin Squad Member

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As posted on ideascale please judge this idea based on it's own merits alone. Other ideas to address kiting / ranged attacks / difficulty of NPCs may or may not be run alongside this idea. That can be crowdforged seperately. This is merely a vote on if you like these ideas or not and it's passage does not guarantee that any other ideas will be removed / not implemented.

Goblin Squad Member

Here's the thing I'm confused about (and I'll admit I haven't been doing much in the Alpha so details may be off), what is the difference between the current way the encounters go and the way people would prefer they go?

To me the root of the problem is intent versus end result, the mechanics are the way to make that happen, but I feel like we're missing something from the conversation.

I'll posit the assumption that the dev's intent is that every reasonably equal leveled encounter should prove somewhat risky to the player if they play poorly, but they should win as long as they do not make horrible mistakes or play incredibly badly (if random numbers are involved that could be a factor too). Thus equal level encounters are just item farming and basic coordination endeavors; the rest of what I say is assuming this case.

The first question is who are encounters intended for? Single players, well rounded groups, any group with X amount of DPS, mixed or unmixed weapon/skill sets, etc...

Once you establish that, you can extrapolate anomalies that break the intended encounter behavior. Minor variations can generally be ignored and attributed to clever players. Major violators are usually borderline exploits, unforeseen combinations, or tuning oversights. I believe the Ranged conversation is in the latter area.

So is the problem that Ranged can handle encounters intended for groups via the sheer virtue of being ranged? I'll assume the answer is that they should not be able to handle those situations. And when I say handle, I mean at all, there should be no win scenario.

In my eyes a ranged player pulling a single target out of pack seems like the biggest issue, it shouldn't be possible at all. It reduces/removes all the risk to the player, the pack as a whole should pose a risk to the player if the intent is for the pack to be an encounter. It should also not be possible to engage a target(s) and manipulate it via the mechanics such that it never has a chance to actually harm you, it should withdraw in such situations.

So my view would be that you need to prevent kiting and prevent ranged alpha strike damage being strong enough to pick targets off one at time between pack resets.

For the first I would say leave what we more or less have, if they can't hit you enough their threat decays rapidly (decay rate should be such that equal level encounters should always reset before you kill a single target) and they reset, but I would go so far as to make sure they immediately become immune to damage and heal to full while resetting. (I thought they did this already but I may be wrong)

The second problem I think is far bigger in my eyes, we seem to be trying to correct that problem by modifying the other members of the packs behavior when they aren't linked directly. My guess is that in code the threat system is an inherited model that is really only calculated based on the individual entity's state, thus trying to manipulate the base threat model to get the end result feels like a losing endeavor (if they are linked they should share more threat but it doesn't necessarily fix the problem). Instead I think they need to force the ranged player to make a choice, stay engaged or withdraw. Staying engaged with an even fight should result in them missing most of their HP but winning. They should probably try to balance the damage, HP, and abilities (including movement) to make this case true instead of trying to manipulate the threat system to do it for them.

This should also take into account whether swapping weapons is a desired/required behavior for even strength encounters, I personally think it should be for any solo-able cases and have been playing that way.

Withdrawing should result in a reset with no wins or losses. My above solution could mean your window for staying or withdrawing is limited (Andius' Frenzy fits this idea).

The downside to this is that it will be far easier to die and I can see how that may be disliked but otherwise there is a perfect win strategy that everyone should use which is far worse in my opinion.

Goblin Squad Member

The problem intended to be addressed is that with enough patience you can solo almost any encounter that doesn't have enough ranged enemies.

Basically you pick off which monster you want to kill. Deal some damage to it, if you need to let the other monsters drop aggro, kill your target, go back, pick a new mob and do the same thing. Repeat until spawn is dead.

Even with the ranged nerf you should still be able to do this with a little persistence. I'm using a melee, evade, heal-spam, melee kiting technique right now which yields similar results to range kiting with enough patience.

With this idea it's the whole spawn or nothing and if you take too long to kill the spawn then they get an anti-kiting speed boost.

It effectively stops people from taking down spawns way more powerful than they should be able to.

Personally I'm not anti-kiting but it seems like the community as a whole is, and has demanded kiting be dealt with. This is a good solution to it.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe that hexes without escalations in them are not intended to be a significant threat to a solo adventurer - and they have not been.

That said, I have walked into escalations hexes and gotten absolutely mauled if I did not have a group to back me up - kiting or no. Even with a group in a high-level escalation, it was likely for us to lose one or two players if we made a mistake in our approach.

Considering that the entire purpose of escalations is to increase risk (and reward) this seems like the system working properly. Do certain things need tweaked? I'm certain they do. But in general I believe the way things function now makes sense.

If the world needs to get deadlier to make the players more challenged - I'm okay with that. But I don't think it is nearly the severe issue it has been made out to be.

Goblin Squad Member

@Andius

Glad I wasn't entirely off base, I think the only problem with solving this is what the code is actually doing compared to the possible solutions. The easiest way to deal with it might be to adjust a couple numbers versus trying to build a linked threat system. Depends on stuff we have no idea about, but I think we agree on what the end result should be.

@Keign

Related to what I stated above, I would bet this is an inherited system, if they can tweak and fix it for the one case it should still hold true for all the other cases too.

Plus if content drops any resources that are in demand the economy is directly influenced by the ability of one person to trivialize content. For example if the Ogre pack drops some crafting thing and is supposed to be tuned for around 10 people to deal with and they will sometimes lose a person or two (and thus some gear/items are destroyed) the rarity of the drop and general cost should increase. If one person can solo the content using an exploit they have now generated an arguably negative impact on the economy (this example could probably get even more complex depending on dev intent). Depending on the type of game this could barely matter, but given that PFO is going for a heavily focused economy it can become an issue.

Goblin Squad Member

@Duffy

The threat system is already built. There is no standard leashing system in PFO
just the aggro-leash.

This proposal is for fixes to the already existing system.

Goblin Squad Member

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I really don't see the problem with any of this to be honest. The devs have said that the mobs are basically "moving, and fighting resource nodes".

The whole rooting / kiting debate or issue can not be for the sake of PVE. That being said, I can't imagine that this issue is being raised for PVP.

Are there really any significant number of players actually PVPing? Other than just before a wipe, I doubt many are. PCs are not on a leash, so that is not the issue.

The only thing I can think of is that the melee based feats that are meant to be gap closers are not functioning properly or not at all.

I just feel we are not addressing what is actually broken.

Goblin Squad Member

We don't know enough about the design to be monkeying around with it at this level of detail. The devs have the ball, they just asked about their stop-gap measure until the rest of the mechanics are implemented.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

I really don't see the problem with any of this to be honest. The devs have said that the mobs are basically "moving, and fighting resource nodes".

The whole rooting / kiting debate or issue can not be for the sake of PVE. That being said, I can't imagine that this issue is being raised for PVP.

Are there really any significant number of players actually PVPing? Other than just before a wipe, I doubt many are. PCs are not on a leash, so that is not the issue.

The only thing I can think of is that the melee based feats that are meant to be gap closers are not functioning properly or not at all.

I just feel we are not addressing what is actually broken.

very good point

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

I really don't see the problem with any of this to be honest. The devs have said that the mobs are basically "moving, and fighting resource nodes".

The whole rooting / kiting debate or issue can not be for the sake of PVE. That being said, I can't imagine that this issue is being raised for PVP.

Are there really any significant number of players actually PVPing? Other than just before a wipe, I doubt many are. PCs are not on a leash, so that is not the issue.

The only thing I can think of is that the melee based feats that are meant to be gap closers are not functioning properly or not at all.

I just feel we are not addressing what is actually broken.

I actually have some ideas floating in my head as to how to help address the melee/range imbalance as we pull the band-aid off.

That being said the devs have said they expect NPCs to remain dumb for the foreseeable future, so the PvP fixes won't address any PvE imbalances. These are some logical / fairly simple fixes that should.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius the Afflicted wrote:
That being said the devs have said they expect NPCs to remain dumb for the foreseeable future, so the PvP fixes won't address any PvE imbalances. These are some logical / fairly simple fixes that should.

I'm questioning whether or not anything is "broken" about it, other than the gap closers (possibly).

The other day four of us went out PVE harvesting mobs. We had a Fighter-melee (tank), a Rogue Archer (healer), A Rogue Archer (DPS) and Cleric.

With some cooperation and communication, the Fighter - Melee saw plenty of action. I could possibly see PVP having to use slightly different tactics, but not much so, and the melee would still be effective.

Goblin Squad Member

I think the group play isn't that big of a concern. The issue is more that one persistent player with a decent kiting build can solo almost anything. The consensus from the community seems to be that they shouldn't be able to do that.

I don't really agree with that fully but I'd rather see this used to fix it than see further nerfs to systems used in PvP, and this should be pretty easy to pull off.

I actually proposed an idea where NPCs use more gap closers / slowdowns on players and the dev response was pretty-much "that won't be happening any time soon."

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

I think the group play isn't that big of a concern. The issue is more that one persistent player with a decent kiting build can solo almost anything. The consensus from the community seems to be that they shouldn't be able to do that.

I don't really agree with that fully but I'd rather see this used to fix it than see further nerfs to systems used in PvP, and this should be pretty easy to pull off.

I actually proposed an idea where NPCs use more gap closers / slowdowns on players and the dev response was pretty-much "that won't be happening any time soon."

Transversal velocity calculation plus smarter mobs especially higher lvl mobs. Thats a real fix and I can only wonder at the timeline though maby Ryan can ask a buddy at ccp about the transversal. Donno if that's kosher.

Goblin Squad Member

I guess dimensional door is out of the question at this point lol.. Why let a wizard be a wizard ... Can't have those necromancers using skeleton pets they might use them to fight....

Goblin Squad Member

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Can anyone explain to me why we are even having the conversation?

Duffy wrote:

Here's the thing I'm confused about ..., what is the difference between the current way the encounters go and the way people would prefer they go?

To me the root of the problem is intent versus end result, the mechanics are the way to make that happen, but I feel like we're missing something from the conversation.....

Bluddwolf wrote:

I really don't see the problem with any of this to be honest. The devs have said that the mobs are basically "moving, and fighting resource nodes".

.....
I just feel we are not addressing what is actually broken.

Since the mobs don't hand out XP and are - as Bluddwoff pointed out - simply fighting resource nodes, what difference does it make how anyone chooses to collect those nodes?

If you are in a group simply work out tactics that ensure all of the group share equally in the fun of killing mobs, and if anyone chooses to run around solo then what does it matter if that individual wants to spend 10 or 15 minutes slowly whittling down a mob. It's not like there is only limited countryside in which you can find mobs.

Goblin Squad Member

Corwyn Rand wrote:

Can anyone explain to me why we are even having the conversation?

Duffy wrote:

Here's the thing I'm confused about ..., what is the difference between the current way the encounters go and the way people would prefer they go?

To me the root of the problem is intent versus end result, the mechanics are the way to make that happen, but I feel like we're missing something from the conversation.....

Bluddwolf wrote:

I really don't see the problem with any of this to be honest. The devs have said that the mobs are basically "moving, and fighting resource nodes".

.....
I just feel we are not addressing what is actually broken.

Since the mobs don't hand out XP and are - as Bluddwoff pointed out - simply fighting resource nodes, what difference does it make how anyone chooses to collect those nodes?

If you are in a group simply work out tactics that ensure all of the group share equally in the fun of killing mobs, and if anyone chooses to run around solo then what does it matter if that individual wants to spend 10 or 15 minutes slowly whittling down a mob. It's not like there is only limited countryside in which you can find mobs.

Great point. Plus groups have always been fastest so what does the solo guy matter? Maby somone who plays at odd times will try to make a better solo char and I think thats fine.

Goblin Squad Member

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There are a lot of good points being made here, and still it remains a mystery as to what the real issue is in the Dev's eyes.

Is it that harvesters / crafters are concerned that solo adventurers are harvesting whole groups of Mobs?

Is it that there is fear among the non pvpers that pvpers will be running around with nothing but ranged attacks?

Is it the melee focused toon who can't get to a mob, before his or her party members kill them from ranged attacks?

Is it that it looks visually ridiculous that mobs will suddenly turn away from their attacker and return to their start location, if they survive that long to get there?

Goblin Squad Member

Corwyn Rand wrote:

Can anyone explain to me why we are even having the conversation?

Duffy wrote:

Here's the thing I'm confused about ..., what is the difference between the current way the encounters go and the way people would prefer they go?

To me the root of the problem is intent versus end result, the mechanics are the way to make that happen, but I feel like we're missing something from the conversation.....
Bluddwolf wrote:

I really don't see the problem with any of this to be honest. The devs have said that the mobs are basically "moving, and fighting resource nodes".

.....
I just feel we are not addressing what is actually broken.

Since the mobs don't hand out XP and are - as Bluddwoff pointed out - simply fighting resource nodes, what difference does it make how anyone chooses to collect those nodes?

If you are in a group simply work out tactics that ensure all of the group share equally in the fun of killing mobs, and if anyone chooses to run around solo then what does it matter if that individual wants to spend 10 or 15 minutes slowly whittling down a mob. It's not like there is only limited countryside in which you can find mobs.

I'm grateful to these players who are thinking outside the box and questioning assumptions. Considering their points I truly no longer see what the problem really is that had the community in an uproar.

Cal's observation that it seems broken for someone without significant MMO experience to be able to kite mobs should itself be questioned. Do we really need more incentive than the threat of PvP to spur grouping? If not, then where is the problem? What is the driving force behind this requirement to always have to be completely dependent on others to do anything whatsoever besides crafting in town? What is the problem with having a slightly more interesting method of harvesting resources, after all?

Goblin Squad Member

I think it's a fear that if people can solo everything then they will never group, and that if they can solo it too quickly it will break the economy.

I think this will largely be alleviated by the SAD. Whether or not you can solo everything there is more safety in numbers.

Still I think a system like this will yield and end result of people finding monsters they can kite into a weak enough state to decisively finish when they frenzy if they want to solo. It sets a bit of a cap on what they can kill alone but it will yield more interesting strategies and gameplay even being the very basic system it is. That's not really a bad thing.

Kiting really is only a test of patience once you have your rhythm down. It's a pretty repetitive and mindless process. Throwing in a timer until the NPCs pull out a complete game changer seems like it will keep you more on your toes / engaged in the fight.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

I think it's a fear that if people can solo everything then they will never group, and that if they can solo it too quickly it will break the economy.

I think this will largely be alleviated by the SAD. Whether or not you can solo everything there is more safety in numbers.

Still I think a system like this will yield and end result of people finding monsters they can kite into a weak enough state to decisively finish when they frenzy if they want to solo. It sets a bit of a cap on what they can kill alone but it will yield more interesting strategies and gameplay even being the very basic system it is. That's not really a bad thing.

Kiting really is only a test of patience once you have your rhythm down. It's a pretty repetitive and mindless process. Throwing in a timer until the NPCs pull out a complete game changer seems like it will keep you more on your toes / engaged in the fight.

and what of the pvp side?

Goblin Squad Member

@ Andius,

It will be long before the SAD mechanic that solo harvesters / adventurers will be compelled to travel in groups.

The War of Towers turns the entire hex into a FFA PVP zone. 24/7 in the tower hexes that are not controlled and during the open PVP window in the tower hexes that are controlled.

It is possible (although not likely) that some 300+ hexes are FFA PVP at or around the same time. This assumes that a bulk of the settlements adopt PVP windows that make the most use of their time zone.

This begs the question: Will GW provide a mini map overlay that shows what hexes are presently in their PVP window?

Goblin Squad Member

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PvP should happen, and it won't be like PvE. Organized PvP (inter-settlement warfare) should prove to be exceptionally interesting whether archers and wizards are rooted for ranged shots or not, but any melee range activity should not impose rooting.

Tactical formations should come about without GW having to code anything in particular to enforce it simply because of friendly fire rules. Just for crimeny's sake don't nerf friendly fire rules or the zerg will be as far as tactics evolve.

Goblin Squad Member

Pyronous Rath wrote:
and what of the pvp side?

Do you really want a solution to a PvE problem to have a PvP side? I have suggestions on what to do about some of the current PvP imbalances but they will be proposed separately. Possibly later today.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Pyronous Rath wrote:
and what of the pvp side?
Do you really want a solution to a PvE problem to have a PvP side? I have suggestions on what to do about some of the current PvP imbalances but they will be proposed separately. Possibly later today.

its not my choice

Goblin Squad Member

+15 with 80% support. This is a crowdforged fix if there ever was one.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

@Duffy

The threat system is already built. There is no standard leashing system in PFO
just the aggro-leash.

This proposal is for fixes to the already existing system.

Just to clarify, just because the threat system exists does not mean it's easy to extend. Without seeing the code we as outside observers cannot answer that question, but as a coder I can easily imagine a scenario where it's significantly more work and tricky to try and extend the details of how threat works then it is to adjust some number scales elsewhere. I have no idea which would be easier as I am not a GW developer, but it would explain some of the reasons they could be restricting their temp fix ideas to what seem like tangentially related systems.

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