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Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion's <s>evangelicals</s>bigots call if the potion of cure homosexuality.
Ahmmmmm...
A small but disturbing minority of lesbian and gay activists claim that transgender medical treatment is just a modernized form of gay conversion therapy and that it should be banned for that reason - never mind that I and many other trans people went in transition from being perceived as heterosexual (in apparently opposite-sex relationships) to being openly gay (our relationships went to being correctly perceived as same-sex).
Also, Golarion's religious institutions take same-gender sexual attraction at face value so there would be no stigma to begin with.
So, um... please, no.
Oh I don't disagree at all. I can acknowledge that its a noble and laudable goal while at the same time holding the position that its inappropriate to use their game as a platform to push a socially progressive agenda that is of dubious benefit to a small minority of its patronage, especially when considering that most people who engage in gaming do so with the understanding that its a safe haven from such socio-political heavy-handedness. That's my opinion but I'm not alone in it... and if that opinion happens to be a minority one, well then I'm confidant that in the interest of fairness, Paizo will champion me next, eh?That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.
In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.
Actually, using their game to "push a socially progressive agenda" is (IMO) not a bad thing. Like any other form of entertainment, it can and (if handled carefully) should also spread ideas. (At its best Star Trek is a good example of this.)
The problem is that I feel that Paizo needs to throttle things back a bit - they are being too heavy-handed. If an agenda is pushed too hard, it can lose the very people who it needs to reach.
So, no, you are not alone in your impression. I see that my perception is (at least) parallel to yours.
I'd like to take a moment and thank you for reading and responding to my entire post rather than targeting select portions of it and conveniently ignoring the rest. Too, I'd like to thank you for doing so without feeling the need to resort to absurd hyperbole, sarcasm, strawman arguments or outright personal attack. Its comforting to know that mature and well-meaning discourse can be had on what could easily be an emotional subject.
As stated, I think the goal to be a laudable one. I wonder if, as close to the issue as Paizo is considering its direct employment of many LGBT individuals, and how active that community is on these forums (as opposed to the vast majority of patrons whom are not) - I wonder if they are aware of that degree of heavy-handedness or if to them it simply seems par for the course. There definitely seems to be a strong sense of disconnect with my gaming community for instance, on this and similar issues.
We have a situation where someone raises their hand and says 'excuse me, but even though you've never explicitly excluded me from participation, I'm feeling excluded/marginalized/oppressed because of your focus on 90% of the population', then the response seems to be "Well, let's get right on that". But if someone raises their hand and says 'excuse me, but even though you've never explicitly excluded me from participation, I'm feeling excluded/marginalized/oppressed because of your focus on 10% of the population', the response is "well that's your problem because you're a bigot"? C'mon.
For the record - lest that be taken out of context - I have never heard, seen nor even had it suggested that any Paizo employee or representative would respond in such a fashion, but we've already seen the word surface once in this discussion and I don't doubt its been thought many times already.
I imagine it is many peoples fantasy to see characters who have triumphed over those hardships as a motivator to get through their own.
If they triumphed through perseverance, strength of character or by overcoming hardships then I imagine it would be inspiring, yes - but that's not what we're discussing here. Who takes inspiration in their daily lives because someone (literally) waved a wand in a fantasy game?
Because all the Wiggzes.
Welcome to an adult conversation. I didn't even begin this thread, if you'll recall - why is it that honest discussion between mature individuals troubles you so?
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As as a straight white male, I think it's reaching a bit to say that acknowledging the existence of trans/gay/lesbian characters is heavy-handed.
The way people bring up the few examples that are here and there, one would think all we have gotten in the last year for books was Gay Pride Parades of the Inner Sea , the Trans Characters Player Companion , and an AP about legalizing gay marriage in Cheliax.
All we have gotten, as far as I can recall, is one item (which has other uses), the backstory of two iconics (one of which happened in the comics, and the other is essentially web only) and a few NPCs in adventures, whose sexuality generally isn't treated as something special.
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Wiggz, you can decry our disagreement with you as immature hyperbole all you want, but the point stands: I think that you're taking this "heavy-handed" stuff too far, and it's beginning to grate.
Have you seen your posting history lately? I can pretty much guess what you're going to write 90% of the time just by seeing your name on the boards. I understand that you have a problem with queer things in your RPG, but I don't know what you're trying to prove by stating it over and over (and liking your own posts sometimes to give the illusion that someone actually agrees with you), because Paizo has already said it ain't changing, and the vast majority of us here have no problem with it.
I'm not attacking you or being mean or oppressing you, but it needs to be said that you're exhausting me, because I'm constantly having to re-explain to people every day why inclusion is important, and why it isn't an "agenda" just because ONE item was added to the game, or ONE NPC was added.
Just because things are slightly more even in our direction, does not suddenly make the entire game gay, or suddenly remove all of the straight people from the game.
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Wiggz, you can decry our disagreement with you as immature hyperbole all you want, but the point stands: I think that you're taking this "heavy-handed" stuff too far, and it's beginning to grate.
Have you seen your posting history lately? I can pretty much guess what you're going to write 90% of the time just by seeing your name on the boards. I understand that you have a problem with queer things in your RPG, but I don't know what you're trying to prove by stating it over and over (and liking your own posts sometimes to give the illusion that someone actually agrees with you), because Paizo has already said it ain't changing, and the vast majority of us here have no problem with it.
I'm not attacking you or being mean or oppressing you, but it needs to be said that you're exhausting me, because I'm constantly having to re-explain to people every day why inclusion is important, and why it isn't an "agenda" just because ONE item was added to the game, or ONE NPC was added.
Just because things are slightly more even in our direction, does not suddenly make the entire game gay, or suddenly remove all of the straight people from the game.
I encourage anyone to look at my posting history - its actually quite full of gaming discussion, from my ideas about adding BAB to initiative to debating good options for 1st level wands to discussions over D&D financials over the years to debates over Pummelling Style and the addition of high technology in our games. In fact, you'll be hard-pressed to find much in my recent history on this topic apart from this specific thread... and your '90%' perfectly illustrates my point about exaggeration, heavy-handedness and hyperbole. If your position is strong, you don't need all that.
Here's my posting history for anyone who's curious.
As for liking my own posts, I do that from time to time to track a conversation, but I don't think I've done it in this thread at all. Again, the casting of personal aspersions to deflect from genuine discourse shouldn't be necessary if you're confidant of your position.
Which 'ONE NPC' are we discussing again? I can think of a number...
...but that's besides the point. I'm not opposed to 'queer things' in my RPG. Not in the slightest. If you were half as well-read on my position as you claim to be, you'd know that we have had two different LGBT members in our gaming group and we commonly explore mature themes in our games, from polyamory to rape to incest (voluntary, loving and otherwise) to gay, bisexual and even asexual NPC's AND PC's. I'm not any more opposed to having LGBT aspects of my game than I am to having it in my daily life. My position isn't anti-gay in the slightest, never has been and never will be. The thing is, those are MY games. I don't look to Paizo to decide for me where and when I need to be inclusive of any particular race, gender, ethnicity or sexuality and I don't believe anyone else needs them to fill that role either. If groups want them, if they feel they are appropriate to their games for whatever reason then they'll include them, plain and simple.
I regret the mindset that causes you to say 'just because things are slightly more even in our direction'... I've never considered it an us vs. you thing. We're all in it together. I did however get amused though by your comment that you're getting tired of me stating my position 'over and over' and then going on to say that you're 'constantly having to re-explain to people every day'... gotta love the irony of the self-righteous, eh?
We're having an honest discussion, one where well-intentioned people disagree. Don't (incorrectly) state my position for me and don't exaggerate whatever you might feel you need to in order to make your point sound valid. Encouraging discourse is probably a large part of what Paizo hoped to do - discourse, not one-sided lecturing. I've never told anyone to NOT state their point of view when a relevant topic comes up... can you extend me the same courtesy?
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If they triumphed through perseverance, strength of character or by overcoming hardships then I imagine it would be inspiring, yes - but that's not what we're discussing here. Who takes inspiration in their daily lives because someone (literally) waved a wand in a fantasy game?
I don't believe any such character has been represented in Paizo's material. The cost of the elixir makes it fairly prohibitive for most, and I imagine that anyone writing such a character would have the cheapness of deus ex machina granting them the elixir without any of the trials pointed out by the people they were trying to reach.
If they triumphed through perseverance, strength of character or by overcoming hardships then I imagine it would be inspiring, yes - but that's not what we're discussing here. Who takes inspiration in their daily lives because someone (literally) waved a wand in a fantasy game?The cost of the elixir makes it fairly prohibitive for most, and I imagine that anyone writing such a character would have the cheapness of deus ex machina granting them the elixir without any of the trials pointed out by the people they were trying to reach.
The cost of the Elixir is approximately the same as a +1 weapon which are about as ubiquitous in the game as it gets. The item's inclusion, with an established gp cost and mechanical effect makes it clear its purpose is to be used by PC's - otherwise it could simply be hand-waved to be as expensive or as cheap, as temporary or as permanent as needed to tell an NPC's story... as I'm sure it has been a number of times in the past for those who wished to tell that sort of story at their tables, all without needing Paizo to define it for them.
The cost of the Elixir is approximately the same as a +1 weapon which are about as ubiquitous in the game as it gets.+1 weapons are not consumed when used.
Nope. They are permanent. As are the effects of the Elixir.
As are the effects of the Elixir.However, said elixir cannot be transferred to new users, so the comparison to +1 weapons is a poor one.
LOL - fine. If that's the crux of your argument, I'll concede it. 2,000 gp potions that are permanent in their effects are more expensive than 2,000 gp weapons that can be transferred to others.
It seems we've gone off quite a tangent though...
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LOL - fine. If that's the crux of your argument, I'll concede it. 2,000 gp potions that are permanent in their effects are more expensive than 2,000 gp weapons that can be transferred to others.
It seems we've gone off quite a tangent though...
I wouldn't call it the crux of the argument, but I can see where you might have considered it so. I still agree that anyone trying to inspire someone in real life with a story of someone 'waving a magic wand' to fix everything will fail. I just find that the elixir does not represent such a situation without the author mishandling it. And any target of such mishandling would call them on it.
Maybe it is because I am not an American and therefore do not pick up on some of the subtleties of the discussion, but I fail to see how Paizo inclusion of LBGTQ themes, subjects and characters is especially heavy handed. In fact, from my point of view acknowledge the existence of genderdymorphic individuals by including an elixir that would mostly be used by them seems to me to be one of the least heavy handed ways of addressing the issue. The Elixir of Sex Shift does not go into great depths on the issue, it does not present a moral argument for or against transsexual people, it simply provides a possible solution to their genderdymorphism, that some of them may choose to utilize.
So I guess I would like to know. Given that Paizo seem to be intent on including LGBTG issues in their products, if you think their current way of doing so is too heavy handed, how do you (Wiggz in particular) think they could address the issue, without alienating you?
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Paizo does it's best to reach out to as many different groups of people as possible. A good portion of table-top RPG players are men who come together as friends to play a good game. (Somewhat skewed perspective coming, take it as you may). I think men tend to like crass jokes more than women, so we'll see more of that in the games we play. Playing a prank on a fellow player by turning them into a girl is awesome, kinda like creating a half-nypmh character and realizing that your race only consists of women! For the LBGT community, this gives them more resources to play the game the way they want to.
Paizo's secret agenda? Sell more products and earn more money. Kinda simple really, it's not really a secret.
The reason why Paizo tends to stray away is because it's such a hotly debated subject. Not only is it hard for hetero sexual people to relate to homosexuals, but religious beliefs add to the idea that "homosexuality is wrong". Whether that's true or false is up to the individual's beliefs, but the distance between the two groups creates, and will probably always create, some strife. The hope is that society moves in a direction that improves society.
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Welcome to an adult conversation. I didn't even begin this thread, if you'll recall - why is it that honest discussion between mature individuals troubles you so?
I'm not entirely sure if there's any honesty, maturity and discussion in any of your sudden "LGBT is forced down my throat" outbursts you do in every thread remotely related to the topic, to be honest.
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Why does item have to represent something?
Why can it not be taken, as is?
Do we need to analyze every magic item, to discover what it represents, and then hypothesize the agenda behind every magic item?
What does the Bag of Everlasting Dung represent? What is the agenda behind such an item?
The bag of Everlasting Dung was the result of Nethys' first, last, and only successful attempt to prove to Erastil that Magic 'was useful!'
Unfortunately, it was immediately followed by the 'Everlasting Dung Spreader' and the 'Complete Harvest Automata', whereupon it became obvious to all concerned that Nethys had once more failed to 'get it' & the two of them agreed to 'stay out of each other's way' for the remainder of this eternity.
Not only is it hard for hetero sexual people to relate to homosexuals, but religious beliefs add to the idea that "homosexuality is wrong".
Okay, so again this may be my non-Americaness shining through, but I simply don’t understand this sentiment. How and why should it be difficult for hetero guys to relate to gay men? They are sexually attracted to men, in the same way as I am sexually attracted to women. Done. It’s that simple.
From my perspective, it is much easier to “relate” to how it must be being a gay man, than a 250-year old man (an elf) or a cold-blooded reptile-man (kobold) or the grandson of a litteral angle (aasimar).
Take a country which has dancing boys, now bring it into the sphere of your country, now have some media source or mouthpiece portray the practice of Bacha Bazi as normal, and NOT as something screwed up. You would not be surprised when some people had a problem with this, would you?
Transgender is not Bacha Bazi to you or me, but to an unfortunately large percentage of most countries (including, I suspect, your own) it is. These people are wrong, but there they are.
Okay, so I get that you think that transsexuality is a-priori “wrong”, but how does it follow from that, that including the rather small text-block of the Elixir of Sex Shift is somehow alienating you and people who share your beliefs? I don’t think the practice of slavery is morally defensible, but Golarion includes a large good-aligned religion (Sarenrae) who have found a way to contort their morals into allowing them to be a cornerstone of a society which engage in large-scale slavery (Qadira and the Padisha Empire). The inclusion of this fact in Golarion does not “alienate” me or place any noticeable degree of moral or mental stress on me. And it has a lot more text dedicated to it than the issue of transsexuality has.
By the way, I am from Denmark if my cultural frame of reference is pertinent to the discussion.
There are volumes written about the phenomena of homophobia. Which by the way is hardly "American". As awful as we are, and we are pretty puritanical and backward, we at least stopped making non-cis sexusal expression illegal and don't laws on the books that can literally condemm people to death and worse.
The answer to your question can't be summed up in a thread post. In the dimm possibility that you really want some answers, I suggest you use this wikipedia article on homophobia to get yourself started.
Don't expect any simple, quick, or easy answers. This is not a new problem, nor is it a simple one.
I was merely being rhetorical. I fully understand on an academic level how a person could be brought-up/conditioned to dislike people based on their sexuality, though it continues to frustrate me that people do so, because from my point of view doing so seems obviously to inflict harm on individuals, without providing society with any comparable utility. Also, doing so is just plain wrong (again, from my point of view).
What does actually elude my understanding is how merely being presented with a passage in an RPG book, which indirectly acknowledged the existence and normality of something you dislike, alienates you as the reader.
Take for example the Dark Elder from WH40K. If you read their codex or any novel involving them it becomes pretty obvious that they engage in some pretty epic-scale levels of sexual abuse and violence. The artwork hints at it. The text hints at it. Everything we know about them would tell us that they think “rape is fun”. Now reading such a book I may think that they are total and utter monsters and that I would hate to ever meet one in real life, but it does not make me dislike GW for writing the book or make me think anything less of people (like my girlfriend) who play them.
I could even see myself playing one. Not because I would like to torture, rape and murder other people, but because I recognize that they have an interesting dramatic potential – like Hannibal Lector or Gengis Khan.
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Not only is it hard for hetero sexual people to relate to homosexuals, but religious beliefs add to the idea that "homosexuality is wrong".Okay, so again this may be my non-Americaness shining through, but I simply don’t understand this sentiment. How and why should it be difficult for hetero guys to relate to gay men? They are sexually attracted to men, in the same way as I am sexually attracted to women. Done. It’s that simple.
From my perspective, it is much easier to “relate” to how it must be being a gay man, than a 250-year old man (an elf) or a cold-blooded reptile-man (kobold) or the grandson of a litteral angle (aasimar).
I was attempting to state an observation of mine, however limited my experience has been. Most men's opinions that I've heard have called homosexuality "unnatural", but that they are still on good terms with the people who have such tendencies. In other words, sure they can understand the emotional relationships they have, but not what they do in bed.
I may be wrong, naturally, this is all from my experiences (I hope nobody is taking this as "This is the way it is!), but I think the other hard spot for heterosexuals to relate is simply that: experiences. I have yet to met a Homosexual who told me that he or she was openly gay from the get go. All of the ones I know struggled with their sexual identities and the social implications of such for a period of time. The generic Heterosexual doesn't have to go through that process, and so can't truly understand what it means to have those tendencies. However, with the growth of the LBGT community, that transition to openly gay will become easier as more support is found.
The last point that could explain it (and again, I may be wrong) is that there's a good amount of ignorance going around, such as my own. "We are all ignorant fools," right? (Don't know where the quote is from, otherwise I'd link it).
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated it publicly. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?C'mon man. I doubt even you believe that. Nor do I think you need to pretend that you do in an effort to smear me personally. When you stop discussing the topic at hand and resort to attacking an individual instead, you've already lost the debate.
Saying you have an agenda is a far cry from “smear[ing you] personally” nor “attack[ing you as] an individual.” It was an observation. It was an observation that you have now openly confirmed. If my post seemed critical, it wasn’t a criticism of your agenda, rather, it was a criticism of the disingenuous manner of making your point. (To be clear, I *am* critical of your agenda, but that wasn’t my point at the time or even now).
If I have “lost the debate,” it isn’t because I’ve attacked anyone.
Initially, you pretended to take umbrage at the inclusion of merely the one item, in lieu of an entire line of similar items. You said, “If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?”
I didn’t “smear” you—I simply pointed out that having a single magic item rather than “an entire line of similarly themed items” is not a logical basis for criticizing Paizo. There are many items that represent a sort of “one off” as I illustrated by reference to the Folding Boat.
I also pointed out that simply including the item does not mean anyone is saying it is “important to address these social issues in-game.” Only someone with an ax to grind would perceive it that way.
It appears that your real complaint is not, in fact, the failure to include “an entire line of similarly themed items.” Instead, you take issue with the inclusion of a *single* item.
Oddly enough, you pay lip service to the inclusion of LGBT issues as “laudable,” yet accuse Paizo of “heavy-handedness”:
As stated, I think the goal to be a laudable one. I wonder if, as close to the issue as Paizo is considering its direct employment of many LGBT individuals, and how active that community is on these forums (as opposed to the vast majority of patrons whom are not) - I wonder if they are aware of that degree of heavy-handedness or if to them it simply seems par for the course. There definitely seems to be a strong sense of disconnect with my gaming community for instance, on this and similar issues.
So you initially complain that “an entire line of similarly themed items and spells” would have been better, yet you feel the inclusion of a single item is “heavy-handed.” If anything, surely the opposite would be closer to the truth—an entire line of items and spells dealing with sexuality and gender identity would seem far more “heavy-handed” than the inclusion of a single magic item in a non-core supplement.
You then say:
I don't look to Paizo to decide for me where and when I need to be inclusive of any particular race, gender, ethnicity or sexuality and I don't believe anyone else needs them to fill that role either. If groups want them, if they feel they are appropriate to their games for whatever reason then they'll include them, plain and simple.
Paizo included the item, presumably, so that those who want to use it may do so. The fact that one *may* use it does not mean that one *must*. Therefore it is illogical to suggest that by including the optional item Paizo is in any fashion deciding for you when and where you need to be inclusive of anything.
So, to recap, you claim you’ve been “smeared” and “attacked” when you haven’t. You suggest that the inclusion of a line of items is better than just one but then accuse Paizo of being “heavy-handed” for including the one. And you suggest that by allowing something, Paizo actually (somehow) *compels* it.
For someone who claims to dislike hyperbole, sarcasm and strawman arguments, you sure use a lot of hyperbole, sarcasm and strawman arguments.
I don't mind the existence of the item's function. My only concern is that it can become somewhat abusive in that it doesn't allow a save. For those that willingly use it, it should state that you can choose to not to attempt a save. This means the item can be used for its original intended use.
For those that force or trick it down someone's gullet for whatever reason, a save of some sort might be appropriate. It won't stop those that continue to force it, yet it might help against pranksters.
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As for the purpose of the Elixir, it occurs to me that one purpose would be to enable male characters to join (or infiltrate) the Gray Maidens. Those who merely wanted to infiltrate the group would need a second potion if they wanted to change back after the mission was finished.
