Divine caster carrying other holy symbols


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Hi all,

I've had a player in PFS bring this up a few times, though it's never been a significant factor, but I've never seen a rule on it. Here's the question:

Can a divine caster still cast spells while in possession of another deity's holy symbol?

Example: a cleric of Abadar has in his possession (not necessarily held) a holy symbol of Groetus. It could've been recovered from a cultist, found in a chest/box, or worn as part of an undercover mission. Regardless of the specific deity's, I've heard more than once that a cleric/inquisitor/other divine caster (that needs a holy symbol, at least) can't cast spells if they have a symbol of a different god in their possession. My challenge to the rule forums: find where this rule exists, or where the misconception may have come from. You have 24 hours. Good luck.


No

Grand Lodge

They can use their own holy symbol, not that of another deity. I know of no rule turning off their spellcasting if they have another faith's holy symbol on their person, as long as they have, and utilize, their own holy symbol, when needed.

After all, if that holy symbol is in, say, a handy haversack, is it even "on" the cleric or paladin?


Oooooh I know I am so gonna plant unholy symbols of obscure deities on good clerics!!!


Extra-dimensional space is beside the point, in this case. Whatever definition you use, the character has the (un)holy symbol on their person. Is there any reason it should interfere with their spellcasting? Is this a remnant from earlier editions?? Inquiring minds want to know! Namely, me.


I can honestly say I have never found anything like such a rule over several editions of the game and its close cousins. Proving a negative is going to be a massive amount of work, but what you can do is check the few places where holy symbols are defined. I vote no without checking, for what it's worth.

Grand Lodge

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This is just weird.

Where the heck did this idea come from?

Grand Lodge

Well, just checked in Cleric in the CRB, nothing about opposing holy symbols.

Checked the CRB in the Magic chapter, under components, and divine foci specifically, and nothing.

My vote would be that it is something from either a home game rule, or maybe, from an early Deities, Demigods and Gods type book, something long gone from the game.

To be honest, there are a whole slew of stories, and game hooks, involved in finding and dealing with, one way or another, holy or unholy symbols from other faiths. All those hooks would fail if the Cleric couldn't handle the symbol, and deal with it as appropriate.

Would a cleric of Desna not be able to cast if they had a Cayden Caillean symbol in their possession?

Feast of Ravenmoor:
This whole module includes divine types carrying Desnan symbols when their source of divine power is a different deity.

Grand Lodge

I also checked the CRB, and the PRD.

Nothing supports this, very odd, rule existing.


maybe spoiler:

I recently GM'd a scenario that involved a similar situation of a cleric in disguise. A player tried giving the cleric his own holy symbol (different than her 'claimed' deity) and had her cast a spell to 'test' her. This is the first time I've actually had to consider the validity of the idea though.


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Unless the carrying of said holy symbol violates their deities ethos in some way, it should have no effect.

I could see someone similar to (but less sneaky than)the forgotten realms deity Cyric, who had issues with other deities, mandating that all other holy symbols be destroyed, and punish a Cleric who carried one rather than destroying it by not granting spells.

Grand Lodge

Paulicus wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
If she is trained in Sleight of Hand, have her "present" the PC's Holy Symbol in an obvious fashion, while using SoH to use her own unholy symbol. Or Stealth, in default of trained SoH.

That would be if they are supplying the holy symbol of the deity she is falsely claiming to serve. If not, just have her tell them it won't work. If they give her her actual deity's unholy symbol, she can fake failing to cast with it, using a Bluff vs Spellcraft check.

Or, just have her get into a snit about it. "I have traveled all this way, to honor a fallen friend by presiding at her funeral. Now you presumptuous Pathfinders are being a pain. Go away, and stop bothering a poor, old woman." Modify the speech as appropriate, that one just matches the scenario I think you are referring to.

Grand Lodge

Paulicus wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

If it's the scenario I'm thinking of

Spoiler:
she is already carrying the symbol of a different and hostile deity. Her spells and channelling work fine.

Lantern Lodge

There may be role-playing consequences of carrying holy symbols from other faiths. For example, a LG cleric or paladin recovers one or more holy symbols of a CE god. Do they destroy these (losing the treasure value)? Do they sell them to the merchant simply because they want the gold in hand not caring if this helps out evil clerics who need to replace their holy symbol? Heck, in some places, trying to sell an evil holy symbol to a mainstream merchant might get you a visit from the local Inquisition! I don't see anything wrong with a GM counting certain actions in regards to other faiths' holy symbols, in some small way, towards the PCs overall relationship with their deity. On the other hand, I don't think it's a cardinal sin where a Paladin falls because he recovered and sold a holy symbol of Rovagug. And as with most religious stuff, I think intent is important. Perhaps the Paladin or Cleric sells the evil holy symbol to a merchant in town and then monitors who shows an interest or who actually buys it, in other words, they are using it as a honeypot for a trap.

But like others who have played the game going back to AD&D 1st Edition (I didn't play the precursor), I don't recall there ever being any mechanical restriction regarding simply carrying around holy symbols from other faiths.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Looking at some things, maybe you're not asking the correct question...

Simply posessing another diety's holy symbols does not prevent you from casting spells with your own holy symbol.

That said, you cannot actually use another diety's holy symbol to cast a spell by RAW. Anything otherwise, good or bad as an idea, is a house rule.

I suppose someone could also create some sort of cursed holy symbol that would allow other things to happen, but these would be custom magic items and not "just a holy symbol".


That wasn't the issue here. The player believed that having another holy symbol at all prevented all divine casting. No one was trying to use a holy symbol of a different faith to cast their spells. This guy is smart and knows the game well, so I took his word on it until it actually mattered (as above).

Seems like it's a strange misconception that came from who-knows-where. At least we know now.

edit: more words

Grand Lodge

Everybody gets things wrong, once in a while.

To err, is human.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Everybody gets things wrong, once in a while.

To err, is human.

That's propaganda put forth by the enemies of Zarus. Humans do not make errors.

Grand Lodge

chaoseffect wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Everybody gets things wrong, once in a while.

To err, is human.

That's propaganda put forth by the enemies of Zarus. Humans do not make errors.

I miss Zarus.

I wish there was a Golarion equivalent.


Paulicus wrote:
Extra-dimensional space is beside the point, in this case. Whatever definition you use, the character has the (un)holy symbol on their person. Is there any reason it should interfere with their spellcasting? Is this a remnant from earlier editions?? Inquiring minds want to know! Namely, me.

I don't recall that ever being a rule, and I'm quite certain it isn't one now.


Similarly related issue:

I'm making an NPC cleric of Asmodeus who masquerades as a cleric of Abadar.

I'm thinking of giving him the Eschew Materials feat to allow him to cast his divine spells without presenting an Asmodean unholy symbol. Does this work? Is there another way to make this work?


Paulicus wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a player in PFS bring this up a few times, though it's never been a significant factor, but I've never seen a rule on it. Here's the question:

Can a divine caster still cast spells while in possession of another deity's holy symbol?

Example: a cleric of Abadar has in his possession (not necessarily held) a holy symbol of Groetus. It could've been recovered from a cultist, found in a chest/box, or worn as part of an undercover mission. Regardless of the specific deity's, I've heard more than once that a cleric/inquisitor/other divine caster (that needs a holy symbol, at least) can't cast spells if they have a symbol of a different god in their possession. My challenge to the rule forums: find where this rule exists, or where the misconception may have come from. You have 24 hours. Good luck.

That is not a rule. I am sure that whoever told you that can't find it. :)


Trainwreck wrote:

Similarly related issue:

I'm making an NPC cleric of Asmodeus who masquerades as a cleric of Abadar.

I'm thinking of giving him the Eschew Materials feat to allow him to cast his divine spells without presenting an Asmodean unholy symbol. Does this work? Is there another way to make this work?

Eschew Materials only covers material components, not foci, so no such luck.

Liberty's Edge

Trainwreck wrote:

Similarly related issue:

I'm making an NPC cleric of Asmodeus who masquerades as a cleric of Abadar.

I'm thinking of giving him the Eschew Materials feat to allow him to cast his divine spells without presenting an Asmodean unholy symbol. Does this work? Is there another way to make this work?

Eschew Materials work for inexpensive spell components, not for divine focuses.

You could take the Birthmark trait:

PRD wrote:
Birthmark: You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life. This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and as a physical manifestation of your faith, and it increases your devotion to your god. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects.

but it is visible.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Eschew Materials work for inexpensive spell components, not for divine focuses.

You could take the Birthmark trait:

PRD wrote:
Birthmark: You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life. This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and as a physical manifestation of your faith, and it increases your devotion to your god. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects.
but it is visible.

Cool. Just like the 666 birthmark that the kid from The Omen had (or am I revealing how old I am by referencing that movie?). Anyway, I like it. Thanks.


Hmm. Another problem with PF making infiltrations difficult ... infiltrating another church, you couldn't present their holy symbol to cast a spell, so you'd be busted instantly.

Must address this.

Silver Crusade

Zhayne wrote:

Hmm. Another problem with PF making infiltrations difficult ... infiltrating another church, you couldn't present their holy symbol to cast a spell, so you'd be busted instantly.

Must address this.

Easy way to address it-- you do NOT present yourself as a cleric (or other divine caster) of that other god when trying to infiltrate (regardless of what your character's actual class is)... surely that god has worshipers of other classes...


wraithstrike wrote:
Paulicus wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a player in PFS bring this up a few times, though it's never been a significant factor, but I've never seen a rule on it. Here's the question:

Can a divine caster still cast spells while in possession of another deity's holy symbol?

Example: a cleric of Abadar has in his possession (not necessarily held) a holy symbol of Groetus. It could've been recovered from a cultist, found in a chest/box, or worn as part of an undercover mission. Regardless of the specific deity's, I've heard more than once that a cleric/inquisitor/other divine caster (that needs a holy symbol, at least) can't cast spells if they have a symbol of a different god in their possession. My challenge to the rule forums: find where this rule exists, or where the misconception may have come from. You have 24 hours. Good luck.

That is not a rule. I am sure that whoever told you that can't find it. :)

That's why I turned to the experts (as far as the internet goes). Again, this guy is a very competent friend of mine. Everybody makes mistakes, I know do often.


Paulicus wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Paulicus wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a player in PFS bring this up a few times, though it's never been a significant factor, but I've never seen a rule on it. Here's the question:

Can a divine caster still cast spells while in possession of another deity's holy symbol?

Example: a cleric of Abadar has in his possession (not necessarily held) a holy symbol of Groetus. It could've been recovered from a cultist, found in a chest/box, or worn as part of an undercover mission. Regardless of the specific deity's, I've heard more than once that a cleric/inquisitor/other divine caster (that needs a holy symbol, at least) can't cast spells if they have a symbol of a different god in their possession. My challenge to the rule forums: find where this rule exists, or where the misconception may have come from. You have 24 hours. Good luck.

That is not a rule. I am sure that whoever told you that can't find it. :)
That's why I turned to the experts (as far as the internet goes). Again, this guy is a very competent friend of mine. Everybody makes mistakes, I know do often.

I understand that is why I put the smiley face. Sometimes we think something should be a rule. It might even make sense for it to be a rule. Then we convince ourselves that it is a rule.

Grand Lodge

This don't even make sense as a rule.

This just seems, no offense to your friend, silly as hell.


Unless the Cleric (or divine caster, whatever) is trying to use it as conduit for her abilities, I see no problem in carrying a different holy symbol, not in rules and not in fluff.
Assuming the other holy symbols are from enemy deities, the Cleric may be carrying them to bring them somewhere they can be destroyed or exorcised, or just studied because "know your enemy".
If they're from allied deities, even less reason for them interfering. Especially in a politheist world such as a standard Pathfinder setting, there's nothing strange in people, even Clerics, praising other deities than their chosen patron. A Cleric of Sarenrae may still make an offering to Gozreh before setting sail to gain the favor of wind and wave, for example, and Sarenrae would have no reason to be mad at her priest for, basically, politely asking another deity permission to cross their domain (of course, a human sacrifice to Asmodeus would be an entirely different matter).
So, I'd see nothing strange in carrying allied deities' holy symbols for "extra protection" (only in fluff, not in rules). Even less if it's for delivering them to their respective clergy or whatever.

Actually, but this of course is personal, in time of dire need, such as having her own holy symbol destroyed, I'd let a Cleric even use a friendly deity's symbol (producing and having access to less powerful effects than what would be normal for that caster), provided that such deity, other than being allied to the Cleric's patron, shares an interest in the current goal of that priest, is somewhat relevant in respect to the desired effect to be produced, and other stuff.

Grand Lodge

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Can you imagine, a Lawful Good Cleric, wishing to return an expensive holy symbol, to a Lawful Good Cleric of a different god, being punished for it?

I would think we saved this kind of dickery, for messing with Paladins.

Lantern Lodge

Astral Wanderer wrote:
Actually, but this of course is personal, in time of dire need, such as having her own holy symbol destroyed, I'd let a Cleric even use a friendly deity's symbol (producing and having access to less powerful effects than what would be normal for that caster), provided that such deity, other than being allied to the Cleric's patron, shares an interest in the current goal of that priest, is somewhat relevant in respect to the desired effect to be produced, and other stuff.

I sort of recall there being something like this in an AP or scenario where it specifically allows (as part of the plot) a holy caster to use a holy symbol from an allied faith.

Grand Lodge

I can't even find anything that says a cleric (or divine caster) must present his holy symbol to cast spells. Only that it has to be presented to channel. They have to have a divine focus to cast most spells, but I don't see anywhere that says it must be presented.


The idea comes from the same source well as the stories of particularly brutal Paladin falls. If you do the wrong thing and it pisses off your god, you lose your powers. But what is the wrong thing?

I mean, apparently "paladin hate/brutal paladin abuse" threads were A Thing around here for a while, and I remember running across a story where a paladin had to save a bunch of innocents from Johnny Evilguy, his options were to tell Johnny Evilguy a lie (instant loss of powers) attack Johnny Evilguy (who would kill the hostages, instant loss of powers) or do the evil act Johnny Evilguy demanded of him (instant loss of powers).

Paladins get this more often than clerics, but the same rule applies. If the GM is irrational, or if the GM decides that the deity is and irrational and jealous psycho-monster (and you know some of them are) then said GM might decide, "your arrogant psycho-child monster of a god decided to strip you of your powers because you had a holy symbol of his enemy."

A random and not-at-all proportional example: in Baldur's Gate 2 there is a scene where you try to can your way into someone's home, pretending to be a priest of Talos (Chaotic evil god of storms, his high temple is LITERALLY a few dozen feet away). If you are not the right alignment and invoke his name you get hit with a Call Lightning. This was clearly a piece of narrative more than any game-rules crunch, but someone could take that example, and the general concept of jealous and cruel gods and dial it up to the point s/he was trolling evil cleric by slipping them good holy symbols.

And when a player tries that shit, it's because we're totally OUT of ideas, convinced we're about to get killed, and are basically praying for divine intervention.


claudekennilol wrote:
I can't even find anything that says a cleric (or divine caster) must present his holy symbol to cast spells. Only that it has to be presented to channel. They have to have a divine focus to cast most spells, but I don't see anywhere that says it must be presented.

On that regard, it mustn't, in fact, be actually presented, but since a divine focus acts as an arcane focus or material component, it must be in hand to be manipulated as needed; which is basically the equivalent of presenting it, except a difference in fluff only, where the word "presenting" implies blatantly showing it, while you can technically also make it more subtle, in the case of spells.

Sovereign Court

Paulicus wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Paulicus wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a player in PFS bring this up a few times, though it's never been a significant factor, but I've never seen a rule on it. Here's the question:

Can a divine caster still cast spells while in possession of another deity's holy symbol?

Example: a cleric of Abadar has in his possession (not necessarily held) a holy symbol of Groetus. It could've been recovered from a cultist, found in a chest/box, or worn as part of an undercover mission. Regardless of the specific deity's, I've heard more than once that a cleric/inquisitor/other divine caster (that needs a holy symbol, at least) can't cast spells if they have a symbol of a different god in their possession. My challenge to the rule forums: find where this rule exists, or where the misconception may have come from. You have 24 hours. Good luck.

That is not a rule. I am sure that whoever told you that can't find it. :)
That's why I turned to the experts (as far as the internet goes). Again, this guy is a very competent friend of mine. Everybody makes mistakes, I know do often.

That's when you tell the guy "just because it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't automatically mean you CAN." Just because it's PFS doesn't mean the GM's hands are tied to what's in (or omitted) from RAW. The GM can (and indeed must) still adjucate interactions not covered by the rules, for example whether a Cleric can use cleric abilities with the wrong holy symbol. What the GM says is still law.


Astral Wanderer wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
I can't even find anything that says a cleric (or divine caster) must present his holy symbol to cast spells. Only that it has to be presented to channel. They have to have a divine focus to cast most spells, but I don't see anywhere that says it must be presented.
On that regard, it mustn't, in fact, be actually presented, but since a divine focus acts as an arcane focus or material component, it must be in hand to be manipulated as needed; which is basically the equivalent of presenting it, except a difference in fluff only, where the word "presenting" implies blatantly showing it, while you can technically also make it more subtle, in the case of spells.

And really, a description like that is practically saying, "make it a bluff or sleight-of-hand trick for an evil cleric to pretend he's a good one." Assuming you want an adventure where the PCs have a chance of spotting the evil guy, but not a certainty.


claudekennilol wrote:
I can't even find anything that says a cleric (or divine caster) must present his holy symbol to cast spells. Only that it has to be presented to channel. They have to have a divine focus to cast most spells, but I don't see anywhere that says it must be presented.

Hmmm! makes you wonder - if you worshipped a suitably sneaky deity - whether you could conceal your holy symbol within the hollowed holy symbol of another deity.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zhayne wrote:

Hmm. Another problem with PF making infiltrations difficult ... infiltrating another church, you couldn't present their holy symbol to cast a spell, so you'd be busted instantly.

Must address this.

Have you considered the possibility that you don't have to infiltrate as a cleric? Churches do employ other people... you think the High Priest is going to be the one that keeps the pews clean?


That seems kinda silly that you couldn't use your holy symbol while in the possession of any others.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great flavor idea to get zapped by the other god or even your god, but I'd only see it in the extreme cases (good vs. evil, law vs. chaos).


deusvult wrote:
Paulicus wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Paulicus wrote:

Hi all,

I've had a player in PFS bring this up a few times, though it's never been a significant factor, but I've never seen a rule on it. Here's the question:

Can a divine caster still cast spells while in possession of another deity's holy symbol?

Example: a cleric of Abadar has in his possession (not necessarily held) a holy symbol of Groetus. It could've been recovered from a cultist, found in a chest/box, or worn as part of an undercover mission. Regardless of the specific deity's, I've heard more than once that a cleric/inquisitor/other divine caster (that needs a holy symbol, at least) can't cast spells if they have a symbol of a different god in their possession. My challenge to the rule forums: find where this rule exists, or where the misconception may have come from. You have 24 hours. Good luck.

That is not a rule. I am sure that whoever told you that can't find it. :)
That's why I turned to the experts (as far as the internet goes). Again, this guy is a very competent friend of mine. Everybody makes mistakes, I know do often.
That's when you tell the guy "just because it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't automatically mean you CAN." Just because it's PFS doesn't mean the GM's hands are tied to what's in (or omitted) from RAW. The GM can (and indeed must) still adjucate interactions not covered by the rules, for example whether a Cleric can use cleric abilities with the wrong holy symbol. What the GM says is still law.

Again, no one was trying to use a different holy symbol as a cleric.

5-21 spoilers!:

The Urgathoan cleric (pretending to be a follower of Pharasma), tries to convince the PCs that she's innocent. To test this, a player gave her his own holy symbol and asked her to cast a spell. When she did, he took it as proof she was real. That's when I asked him to show me the rule, to avoid giving him a false impression. It didn't matter as other players made their sense motive checks, but it's good to know for sure now.

Grand Lodge

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Man, can you imagine, a diehard Cleric of Iomodae, on a mission, to return a rare, and expensive Holy Symbol of Sarenrae, to a Cleric of Sarenrae, out helping the wounded, at the borders of the Worldwound, suddenly "punisihed", by her LG, Demon-hating, righteous deity, worshiped by Paladins the world round, for doing the right thing.

Holy hell, I would walk away from that table.

No sir.

I wouldn't even be able to talk straight, or even get real words out of my mouth, to describe to the DM, all that was wrong with that.

Dark Archive

I don't know if this is a spoiler, so I will put it in tags to prevent any oopsies.

Spoiler:
I just joined a Way of the Wicked game, and the Asmodean Cleric has his Unholy Symbol of Asmodeus kept inside a hollow, fake Holy Symbol of a different god.

I don't know if this strictly works, but it's a thought.

Grand Lodge

Seranov wrote:

I don't know if this is a spoiler, so I will put it in tags to prevent any oopsies.

** spoiler omitted **

I don't know if this strictly works, but it's a thought.

To cast a spell with a divine focus component you must be able to manipulate it. Whether or not your situation constitutes that is up to your GM.

Grand Lodge

Seranov wrote:

I don't know if this is a spoiler, so I will put it in tags to prevent any oopsies.

** spoiler omitted **

I don't know if this strictly works, but it's a thought.

He can't channel negative energy, as he can't present his (Un)Holy Symbol. I agree with claude that there may be some question whether he can cast spells with DF components.

Grand Lodge

Could one present a (Un)Holy Symbol, that was under the effect of an Invisibility spell?

What about a Silent Image, to disguise it a different symbol?

Scarab Sages

MrCab wrote:


I suppose someone could also create some sort of cursed holy symbol that would allow other things to happen, but these would be custom magic items and not "just a holy symbol".

There actually is a cursed holy Symbol in the first part of the Jade Regent Adventure Path:

spoiler:
The second item is a stone statuette of Pazuzu depicting the demon lord as a bird-headed, four winged humanoid with his right arm raised. The statuette is an insidious cursed item. When carried by a worshiper of Pazuzu, it fills its owner with confidence and grants a +4 enhancement bonus to the carrier’s Charisma score. When carried by any other creature, however, the statuette functions as a stone of weight that also bars the character from being able to use f ly speeds, even those magically granted. Worse, every night, there’s a 10% chance that the stone fills its owner’s dreams with terrible nightmares of being eaten alive by birds.
These nightmares prevent the user from gaining the benefits of a full night of rest and deal 1 point of Wisdom damage.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Could one present a (Un)Holy Symbol, that was under the effect of an Invisibility spell?

What about a Silent Image, to disguise it a different symbol?

The real question here is what does "present" even mean? Who am I presenting it to? The affected people of my ability? If so, would my abilities even work if no one knows I'm presenting, i.e. in a surprise round or I'm invisible? Or am I presenting it to my god? What if my god is blind? Do my abilities not function because he can't possibly see me presenting my holy symbol?

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