Calth |
Calth wrote:I see no reason a class's list of class skills wouldn't be a class feature. Can you explain what exactly your concern is? Edit: I mean, two archetypes that altered a skill list would be incompatible for instance.this is untrue by RAW.
Please find a definition of a class feature.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:Please find a definition of a class feature.Calth wrote:I see no reason a class's list of class skills wouldn't be a class feature. Can you explain what exactly your concern is? Edit: I mean, two archetypes that altered a skill list would be incompatible for instance.this is untrue by RAW.
The section that is called Class feature, Skill points are not in it.
Calth |
PC is looking at Sage Bloodline for Sorcerer. INT instead of CHA for class features and effects relating to your class. I think they are not but I am just not 100%.
In this case, Cha-based skills do not get changed to Int-based. You could make an argument that if number of skill points was cha-based, it would change, but that's not an issue. This is the same for bonus feats, just because a class feature gives you a bonus feat, if it involved Cha it wouldn't change to Int just due to the sage bloodline.
Dynn The BeastMaster |
That is why I am asking. I know there is also another one for WIS instead of CHA(but can't find it) and want to know which way to go with BOTH Bloodlines. I would rather say "No to UMD becoming INT based because of..." Rather than just say "No Sage and X Bloodlines" I want to be open, but I also want to be right with the rules, even if I am wrong initially in my thoughts.
Calth |
That is why I am asking. I know there is also another one for WIS instead of CHA(but can't find it) and want to know which way to go with BOTH Bloodlines. I would rather say "No to UMD becoming INT based because of..." Rather than just say "No Sage and X Bloodlines" I want to be open, but I also want to be right with the rules, even if I am wrong initially in my thoughts.
Sage and Empyreal would not alter what attribute a skill is based off of.
Dynn The BeastMaster |
He hasn't yet, but if he is supposed to and isn't I don't see it right. He is currently conceptualizing the build right now. Like I said, I don't want to say "No" and be wrong, but I also don't want to short change him if it isn't adjusted at build time. I have always looked at Sorcerers as CHA-based PERIOD. If you want to go arcane caster INT-based, build a Wizard.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:because they're not class features...If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.
no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so I don't see conflicts being created. and yes
if the problem between conflict was class features, adding 1 more class feature won't imbalance the class. so i don't see it as a problem either.
Calth |
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.Calth wrote:no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so i don't see conflicts being created.Bandw2 wrote:because they're not class features...If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.Calth wrote:no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so i don't see conflicts being created.Bandw2 wrote:because they're not class features...If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.
that quoted material does not say archetypes can only effect a class's class features. only that archetypes effecting the same feature preclude other archetypes that also use that feature.
Bandw2 |
Then answer the question, if two archetypes incompatibly alter skills are they by RAW allowed to stack?
i don't understand the question, archetypes add/subtract class skills(as opposed to modifying the list), there will be no incompatibility, so yes.
Calth wrote:Bandw2 wrote:because they're not class features...If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so I don't see conflicts being created. and yes
if the problem between conflict was class features, adding 1 more class feature won't imbalance the class. so i don't see it as a problem either.
since you thought I didn't awnser
Paulicus |
Skills are based off of a specific attribute, regardless of "primary stat" for a class. Unless he has some way to change them (i.e. Wisdom in the Flesh trait) they stay the same (bluff=cha, spellcraft=int, etc.).
Is he taking cross-blooded with Sage and Empyreal bloodlines? There might be some issue with using "wildblooded" (archetype) bloodlines with another archetype (personally I don't care though). In any case, I'd just make him choose between INT or WIS. He obviously can't have both.
Rysky |
Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.
They're not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
Thanis Kartaleon |
Bandw2 has the right of it, and the language is very plain. Class Features is a section in every single class description. It comes after Role, Alignment, HP, and Skills (as well as the table listing Base Attack, Saves, and the Class Features - the fact that Class Features are listed in the table does not make everything in the table a Class Feature). While it is true that some archetypes modify the Alignment and Skills sections, anything that states "this affects the Class Features" does not affect Skills unless that is a specific caveat.
It is certainly true in a generalized sense that the skill points, list of class skills, hit die, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and even the alignment portions of the class description are all part of that class in an intrinsic way, they are not Class Features, which has a specific meaning which is highly relevant when you are bringing up things like Archetypes which modify Class Features.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text
Rysky |
Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
If those aren't class features what would you call them?
Calth |
Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?
still no possibility of overlap, since it appears to be unique in this.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:If those aren't class features what would you call them?Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
Hit Dice, saves, Skill points, Class skills, etc.
Calth |
Calth wrote:still no possibility of overlap, since it appears to be unique in this.Bandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?
So even though the PRD calls class skills class features you don't think they are?
Rysky |
Rysky wrote:Hit Dice, saves, Skill points, Class skills, etc.Bandw2 wrote:If those aren't class features what would you call them?Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
So all these things that are specific to the class are not class features in your eyes?
Dynn The BeastMaster |
I may not be getting any closer to my answer, however I am certainly liking the back and forth conversation. Like I said, I am thinking No but I could also see myself reading it as a yes too. This is why I am reading your responses more than adding to it. I am trying to get feedback from all of you and see how you "sway" my stance. Thank you and please continue.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:So even though the PRD calls class skills class features you don't think they are?Calth wrote:still no possibility of overlap, since it appears to be unique in this.Bandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?
no, no language there precludes the altering of things additional to class features.
Bandw2 |
Bandw2 wrote:So all these things that are specific to the class are not class features in your eyes?Rysky wrote:Hit Dice, saves, Skill points, Class skills, etc.Bandw2 wrote:If those aren't class features what would you call them?Rysky wrote:sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor textBandw2 wrote:Rysky wrote:Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.
Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.
nope, as they have not been labeled as such. if all of Y is labeled a class feature, but X in the same section is not, i'm not going to assume X is still a class feature.
nothing has been shown to actually label them as class features when they could have very easily been done so.
Calth |
I may not be getting any closer to my answer, however I am certainly liking the back and forth conversation. Like I said, I am thinking No but I could also see myself reading it as a yes too. This is why I am reading your responses more than adding to it. I am trying to get feedback from all of you and see how you "sway" my stance. Thank you and please continue.
We are moving away from your question, which is easily answered for what you really wanted. Sage and Empyreal bloodlines do not alter what attribute skills are based off of, that is a step removed from Class Skills, which tells you what skills you have access to. I mentioned bonus feats earlier as well, if they are Cha-based they wont change either.
Hypothetically though, if there was an archetype that changed all int-based class features to another attribute, it would alter the number of skill points that character gained.
Bandw2 |
The PRD page on retraining class features lists Skills as a class feature that can be retrained.
weird, considering it also has a section on retraining class features in the same area.
Many choices you make about your class features can be retrained. It takes 5 days to retrain one class feature. Training requires spending time with a character of your class whose class level is at least 1 higher than yours and who has the class feature you want. For example, if you are a 5th-level illusionist wizard and want to become a necromancer, you must train with a necromancer of at least 6th level.
Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy).
The class feature you wish to retrain can't be one that you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. You must retrain those elements separately before you can retrain this class feature.
If an archetype or variant class feature replaces the listed class feature, at the GM's discretion you may retrain that alternative class feature for an equivalent variant class feature. For example, inquisitions, which inquisitors can select in place of a domain, and the inquisitor entry below allows you to retrain your chosen domain, so you are allowed to instead retrain an inquisition, swapping it for a domain or another inquisition.
Class features you can retrain are as follows (some entries also call out other retraining options that are significant for the class in question, such as retraining feats for fighters, skill ranks for rogues, or spells known for sorcerers).
Alchemist: Retrain one discovery.
Antipaladin: Retrain one cruelty, or retrain your fiendish bond, replacing your bonded weapon for a fiendish servant or vice versa.
Barbarian: Retrain one rage power.
Bard: Retrain one type of Perform skill associated with your versatile performance class feature. See also retraining skill ranks and retraining spells known.
Cavalier: You can change your order. See also retraining feats.
Cleric: Retrain one domain; the new domain must be one granted by your deity. Doing so replaces your list of domain spells and your domain granted powers. If you are a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, you can instead retrain whether you channel positive or negative energy, which also changes whether you spontaneously cast cure spells or inflict spells.
Druid: Retrain your nature's bond, replacing your domain with an animal companion or vice versa. You can instead retrain one domain; the new domain must be available to your class or archetype. Doing so replaces your list of domain spells and your domain granted powers.
Fighter: Retrain one fighter weapon group you chose for your weapon training class feature. See also retraining feats.
Gunslinger: Retrain one firearm type you selected for gun training, or retrain one deed you selected for true grit. See also retraining feats.
Inquisitor: Retrain one domain; the new domain must be one granted by your deity or ethos. Doing so replaces your domain granted powers. See also retraining feats and retraining spells known.
Magus: Retrain one magus arcana.
Monk: See retraining feats.
Ninja: Retrain one ninja trick or master trick.
Oracle: Retrain one revelation. You can instead retrain whether you add all cure spells or all inflict spells to your spell list. See also retraining spells known.
Paladin: Retrain one mercy, or retrain your divine bond, replacing your bonded weapon with a bonded mount or vice versa.
Ranger: Retrain one favored enemy. This takes 5 days for each +2 bonus you have against the favored enemy you are replacing. You can instead retrain your combat style. This replaces all your current combat style bonus feats. This training takes 5 days for every combat style feat you are replacing. You can instead retrain one favored terrain. This training takes 5 days for each +2 bonus you have in the favored terrain you are replacing. You can instead retrain your hunter's bond, replacing your companions bond with an animal companion or vice versa. See also retraining feats.
Rogue: Retrain one rogue talent or advanced rogue talent.
Samurai: Retrain the weapon you chose for your weapon expertise class ability. You can change your samurai order. See also retraining feats.
Sorcerer: Retrain your bloodline. Doing so replaces your bonus spells, bloodline arcana, bloodline feats, and bloodline powers. This training takes 5 days for every bonus feat, bloodline arcana, and bloodline power you lose from changing bloodlines. See also retraining feats and retraining spells known.
Summoner: Retrain one eidolon evolution. You can instead retrain your eidolon's base form, but if the eidolon has an evolution that requires its original base form, you must first retrain that evolution in exchange for one without that requirement. See also retraining spells known.
Witch: Retrain one hex, major hex, or grand hex.
Wizard: Retrain your arcane bond by replacing one bonded item with another, replacing your bonded item with a familiar, or replacing your familiar with a bonded item. See also retraining feats. You can instead retrain your arcane school (including changing to or from a universalist). Doing so replaces your school's bonus spell slots and school powers. This training takes 5 days for every school power you lose from changing schools.
You can retrain skill ranks you have assigned to skills. Retraining skill ranks takes 5 days. When the training period ends, reassign a number of skill ranks up to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), removing them from your existing skill (or skills) and adding them to a different skill (or skills).
If retraining skill ranks means you no longer qualify for a feat or other ability you have, you can't use that feat or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (Or you can retrain that feat or other ability.)
Bandw2 |
wraithstrike wrote:RAW and RAI skills are not listed as class features. Asking what they are means there is not statement in the rules that they are. Skill are just skills.So, archetypes which explicitly call out class skills as class features are what?
they don't though, the archetype says it changes your class skills, nothing more or less.
wraithstrike |
Are the skills that a class gains considered a class feature or not? I am thinking NO and really only wanting confirmation of being correct.
If you saw the other thread then I say not. They have their own section. If you did not see the other thread I can give you a link to it.
Umbral Reaver |
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Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:Are the skills that a class gains considered a class feature or not? I am thinking NO and really only wanting confirmation of being correct.If you saw the other thread then I say not. They have their own section. If you did not see the other thread I can give you a link to it.
This user started the other thread and posted in it.