Skills as a class feature


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Are the skills that a class gains considered a class feature or not? I am thinking NO and really only wanting confirmation of being correct.


I see no reason a class's list of class skills wouldn't be a class feature. Can you explain what exactly your concern is? Edit: I mean, two archetypes that altered a skill list would be incompatible for instance.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it is not by RAW. I believe Skill points are listed before class features, thus they are not class features.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
I see no reason a class's list of class skills wouldn't be a class feature. Can you explain what exactly your concern is? Edit: I mean, two archetypes that altered a skill list would be incompatible for instance.

this is untrue by RAW.


Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
I see no reason a class's list of class skills wouldn't be a class feature. Can you explain what exactly your concern is? Edit: I mean, two archetypes that altered a skill list would be incompatible for instance.
this is untrue by RAW.

Please find a definition of a class feature.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
I see no reason a class's list of class skills wouldn't be a class feature. Can you explain what exactly your concern is? Edit: I mean, two archetypes that altered a skill list would be incompatible for instance.
this is untrue by RAW.
Please find a definition of a class feature.

The section that is called Class feature, Skill points are not in it.


PC is looking at Sage Bloodline for Sorcerer. INT instead of CHA for class features and effects relating to your class. I think they are not but I am just not 100%.

Silver Crusade

Yes they are, ergo archetypes that modify what skills a class gets cannot overlap.


I am not asking about the POINTS as much as I am the list of skills.


Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:

PC is looking at Sage Bloodline for Sorcerer. INT instead of CHA for class features and effects relating to your class. I think they are not but I am just not 100%.

In this case, Cha-based skills do not get changed to Int-based. You could make an argument that if number of skill points was cha-based, it would change, but that's not an issue. This is the same for bonus feats, just because a class feature gives you a bonus feat, if it involved Cha it wouldn't change to Int just due to the sage bloodline.


The real question is: why? What's the OP trying to do?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:
I am not asking about the POINTS as much as I am the list of skills.

class skills are noted separately from (and before) class features.


Is your player asking if he can use INT for CHA based skills?


That is why I am asking. I know there is also another one for WIS instead of CHA(but can't find it) and want to know which way to go with BOTH Bloodlines. I would rather say "No to UMD becoming INT based because of..." Rather than just say "No Sage and X Bloodlines" I want to be open, but I also want to be right with the rules, even if I am wrong initially in my thoughts.


Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:
That is why I am asking. I know there is also another one for WIS instead of CHA(but can't find it) and want to know which way to go with BOTH Bloodlines. I would rather say "No to UMD becoming INT based because of..." Rather than just say "No Sage and X Bloodlines" I want to be open, but I also want to be right with the rules, even if I am wrong initially in my thoughts.

Sage and Empyreal would not alter what attribute a skill is based off of.


He hasn't yet, but if he is supposed to and isn't I don't see it right. He is currently conceptualizing the build right now. Like I said, I don't want to say "No" and be wrong, but I also don't want to short change him if it isn't adjusted at build time. I have always looked at Sorcerers as CHA-based PERIOD. If you want to go arcane caster INT-based, build a Wizard.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

because they're not class features...


Bandw2 wrote:
because they're not class features...

If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
because they're not class features...
If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.

no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so I don't see conflicts being created. and yes

if the problem between conflict was class features, adding 1 more class feature won't imbalance the class. so i don't see it as a problem either.

Silver Crusade

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Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.


Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
because they're not class features...
If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.
no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so i don't see conflicts being created.

From the PRD:

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.

considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
because they're not class features...
If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.
no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so i don't see conflicts being created.

From the PRD:

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

that quoted material does not say archetypes can only effect a class's class features. only that archetypes effecting the same feature preclude other archetypes that also use that feature.


Then answer the question, if two archetypes incompatibly alter skills are they by RAW allowed to stack?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
Then answer the question, if two archetypes incompatibly alter skills are they by RAW allowed to stack?

i don't understand the question, archetypes add/subtract class skills(as opposed to modifying the list), there will be no incompatibility, so yes.

Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
because they're not class features...
If two archetypes incompatibly altered class skills would they be allowed? Do note that the archetype rules only reference class features. So by what you are saying that combo would be allowed.

no where does it only say they effect only class features, also most archetypes add skills to the list of class skills, so I don't see conflicts being created. and yes

if the problem between conflict was class features, adding 1 more class feature won't imbalance the class. so i don't see it as a problem either.

since you thought I didn't awnser


Skills are based off of a specific attribute, regardless of "primary stat" for a class. Unless he has some way to change them (i.e. Wisdom in the Flesh trait) they stay the same (bluff=cha, spellcraft=int, etc.).

Is he taking cross-blooded with Sage and Empyreal bloodlines? There might be some issue with using "wildblooded" (archetype) bloodlines with another archetype (personally I don't care though). In any case, I'd just make him choose between INT or WIS. He obviously can't have both.

Silver Crusade

Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

They're not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.


Bandw2 has the right of it, and the language is very plain. Class Features is a section in every single class description. It comes after Role, Alignment, HP, and Skills (as well as the table listing Base Attack, Saves, and the Class Features - the fact that Class Features are listed in the table does not make everything in the table a Class Feature). While it is true that some archetypes modify the Alignment and Skills sections, anything that states "this affects the Class Features" does not affect Skills unless that is a specific caveat.

It is certainly true in a generalized sense that the skill points, list of class skills, hit die, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and even the alignment portions of the class description are all part of that class in an intrinsic way, they are not Class Features, which has a specific meaning which is highly relevant when you are bringing up things like Archetypes which modify Class Features.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text

Silver Crusade

Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text

If those aren't class features what would you call them?


Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text

You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?

See ranger archetype prd page


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text

You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?

See ranger archetype prd page

still no possibility of overlap, since it appears to be unique in this.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text
If those aren't class features what would you call them?

Hit Dice, saves, Skill points, Class skills, etc.


Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text

You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?

See ranger archetype prd page

still no possibility of overlap, since it appears to be unique in this.

So even though the PRD calls class skills class features you don't think they are?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

all I am saying is NO WHERE, do the rules suggest or put forward the idea that they are Class Skills, especially when it has the rest clearly labeled, thus nothing effecting only class skills can effect Class skills. this also pertains to archetype restrictions.

Silver Crusade

Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text
If those aren't class features what would you call them?
Hit Dice, saves, Skill points, Class skills, etc.

So all these things that are specific to the class are not class features in your eyes?


I may not be getting any closer to my answer, however I am certainly liking the back and forth conversation. Like I said, I am thinking No but I could also see myself reading it as a yes too. This is why I am reading your responses more than adding to it. I am trying to get feedback from all of you and see how you "sway" my stance. Thank you and please continue.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Calth wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text

You mean like they do for archetypes that alter skills?

See ranger archetype prd page

still no possibility of overlap, since it appears to be unique in this.
So even though the PRD calls class skills class features you don't think they are?

no, no language there precludes the altering of things additional to class features.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yes they are, skills, HD, BAB, and Saves are all class features in addition to the class'es other abilities.
considering they are not listed under class features, I'd like to know why you believe this.

There not listed under class features for ease of reference, BaB and Saves are listed in the progression chart for each class alongside it's abilities.

Having it then go on and say "Full BAB: This class gains +1 BAB at first level and increases by 1 every level afterword" is redundant and needless.

sure but you could have just moved the class feature header above all that and below the flavor text
If those aren't class features what would you call them?
Hit Dice, saves, Skill points, Class skills, etc.
So all these things that are specific to the class are not class features in your eyes?

nope, as they have not been labeled as such. if all of Y is labeled a class feature, but X in the same section is not, i'm not going to assume X is still a class feature.

nothing has been shown to actually label them as class features when they could have very easily been done so.


RAW and RAI skills are not listed as class features. Asking what they are means there is not statement in the rules that they are. Skill are just skills.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Wraith btw is the guy who convinced me that Class Skills, HP, etc are not class features as used by pathfinder. so, don't just think this is something i came up with some day.


Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:
I may not be getting any closer to my answer, however I am certainly liking the back and forth conversation. Like I said, I am thinking No but I could also see myself reading it as a yes too. This is why I am reading your responses more than adding to it. I am trying to get feedback from all of you and see how you "sway" my stance. Thank you and please continue.

We are moving away from your question, which is easily answered for what you really wanted. Sage and Empyreal bloodlines do not alter what attribute skills are based off of, that is a step removed from Class Skills, which tells you what skills you have access to. I mentioned bonus feats earlier as well, if they are Cha-based they wont change either.

Hypothetically though, if there was an archetype that changed all int-based class features to another attribute, it would alter the number of skill points that character gained.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The PRD page on retraining class features lists Skills as a class feature that can be retrained.


wraithstrike wrote:
RAW and RAI skills are not listed as class features. Asking what they are means there is not statement in the rules that they are. Skill are just skills.

So, archetypes which explicitly call out class skills as class features are what?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
The PRD page on retraining class features lists Skills as a class feature that can be retrained.

weird, considering it also has a section on retraining class features in the same area.

Class feature:

Many choices you make about your class features can be retrained. It takes 5 days to retrain one class feature. Training requires spending time with a character of your class whose class level is at least 1 higher than yours and who has the class feature you want. For example, if you are a 5th-level illusionist wizard and want to become a necromancer, you must train with a necromancer of at least 6th level.

Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy).

The class feature you wish to retrain can't be one that you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. You must retrain those elements separately before you can retrain this class feature.

If an archetype or variant class feature replaces the listed class feature, at the GM's discretion you may retrain that alternative class feature for an equivalent variant class feature. For example, inquisitions, which inquisitors can select in place of a domain, and the inquisitor entry below allows you to retrain your chosen domain, so you are allowed to instead retrain an inquisition, swapping it for a domain or another inquisition.

Class features you can retrain are as follows (some entries also call out other retraining options that are significant for the class in question, such as retraining feats for fighters, skill ranks for rogues, or spells known for sorcerers).

Alchemist: Retrain one discovery.

Antipaladin: Retrain one cruelty, or retrain your fiendish bond, replacing your bonded weapon for a fiendish servant or vice versa.

Barbarian: Retrain one rage power.

Bard: Retrain one type of Perform skill associated with your versatile performance class feature. See also retraining skill ranks and retraining spells known.

Cavalier: You can change your order. See also retraining feats.

Cleric: Retrain one domain; the new domain must be one granted by your deity. Doing so replaces your list of domain spells and your domain granted powers. If you are a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, you can instead retrain whether you channel positive or negative energy, which also changes whether you spontaneously cast cure spells or inflict spells.

Druid: Retrain your nature's bond, replacing your domain with an animal companion or vice versa. You can instead retrain one domain; the new domain must be available to your class or archetype. Doing so replaces your list of domain spells and your domain granted powers.

Fighter: Retrain one fighter weapon group you chose for your weapon training class feature. See also retraining feats.

Gunslinger: Retrain one firearm type you selected for gun training, or retrain one deed you selected for true grit. See also retraining feats.

Inquisitor: Retrain one domain; the new domain must be one granted by your deity or ethos. Doing so replaces your domain granted powers. See also retraining feats and retraining spells known.

Magus: Retrain one magus arcana.

Monk: See retraining feats.

Ninja: Retrain one ninja trick or master trick.

Oracle: Retrain one revelation. You can instead retrain whether you add all cure spells or all inflict spells to your spell list. See also retraining spells known.

Paladin: Retrain one mercy, or retrain your divine bond, replacing your bonded weapon with a bonded mount or vice versa.

Ranger: Retrain one favored enemy. This takes 5 days for each +2 bonus you have against the favored enemy you are replacing. You can instead retrain your combat style. This replaces all your current combat style bonus feats. This training takes 5 days for every combat style feat you are replacing. You can instead retrain one favored terrain. This training takes 5 days for each +2 bonus you have in the favored terrain you are replacing. You can instead retrain your hunter's bond, replacing your companions bond with an animal companion or vice versa. See also retraining feats.

Rogue: Retrain one rogue talent or advanced rogue talent.

Samurai: Retrain the weapon you chose for your weapon expertise class ability. You can change your samurai order. See also retraining feats.

Sorcerer: Retrain your bloodline. Doing so replaces your bonus spells, bloodline arcana, bloodline feats, and bloodline powers. This training takes 5 days for every bonus feat, bloodline arcana, and bloodline power you lose from changing bloodlines. See also retraining feats and retraining spells known.

Summoner: Retrain one eidolon evolution. You can instead retrain your eidolon's base form, but if the eidolon has an evolution that requires its original base form, you must first retrain that evolution in exchange for one without that requirement. See also retraining spells known.

Witch: Retrain one hex, major hex, or grand hex.

Wizard: Retrain your arcane bond by replacing one bonded item with another, replacing your bonded item with a familiar, or replacing your familiar with a bonded item. See also retraining feats. You can instead retrain your arcane school (including changing to or from a universalist). Doing so replaces your school's bonus spell slots and school powers. This training takes 5 days for every school power you lose from changing schools.

Skill Ranks:

You can retrain skill ranks you have assigned to skills. Retraining skill ranks takes 5 days. When the training period ends, reassign a number of skill ranks up to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), removing them from your existing skill (or skills) and adding them to a different skill (or skills).

If retraining skill ranks means you no longer qualify for a feat or other ability you have, you can't use that feat or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (Or you can retrain that feat or other ability.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Calth wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
RAW and RAI skills are not listed as class features. Asking what they are means there is not statement in the rules that they are. Skill are just skills.
So, archetypes which explicitly call out class skills as class features are what?

they don't though, the archetype says it changes your class skills, nothing more or less.


Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:
Are the skills that a class gains considered a class feature or not? I am thinking NO and really only wanting confirmation of being correct.

If you saw the other thread then I say not. They have their own section. If you did not see the other thread I can give you a link to it.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Dynn The BeastMaster wrote:
Are the skills that a class gains considered a class feature or not? I am thinking NO and really only wanting confirmation of being correct.
If you saw the other thread then I say not. They have their own section. If you did not see the other thread I can give you a link to it.

This user started the other thread and posted in it.


Define class feature. If you are asking if an ex paladin loses the +3 bonus to diplomacy being a class skill then no.

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