HowFortuitous |
A player brought up this question to me. Summon Monster x obviously doesn't create the creature from whole cloth. How does a wizard who doesn't know how to cast a heal spell, make a monster that can cast a heal spell afterall? (did not actually check to see if there is a monster on the summon monster lists that can cast heal) So these creatures have to come from somewhere. So...where? And how do they feel about being pulled from their home and made to fight to the (temporary) death?
Guardianlord |
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Summon monster, as I see it, is a wizard creating an ectoplasmic shell. This shell is then filled with part of the spirit of that creature, and part of the spirit of the wizard.
This connection means the spirit can do most of the things the master monster can (some powers are not available), and the summon can know who is a threat to the one it is bonded to and who it should listen to.
When a summon dies, it evaporates almost instantly and the "spirit fragment" returns to its native plane, but since it was such a small piece it was never really missed at all.
lemeres |
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I kind of want the reaction to be different between which level summon spell you use.
A Summon Monster IX's trumpet archon would be "OH YEAH! GO TIME! POINT ME AT EVIL! I NEED A WARM UP AFTER SO LONG, SO JUST SEND SOME TARRASQUES!" since they are at the high end power spectrum, so only the most powerful spellcasters can some them (so there is an inherent respect for their power and the kind of personality that thinks 'no, no, I can't bend the universe to my will quite as much as I like yet' after getting level 8 spells) and they are summoned so rarely that it is a nice little event for them. If they die, it is because they were fighting as part of a struggle on a grand scale.
....but Summon Monster I's eagle and dog? They are summoned constantly by N00Bs, where they are sent to die as cannon fodder against goblins and kobolds, or worse, they are summoned to act as quick, cheap, and expendable trap triggers.
Lantern archons and hound archons would just be cool guys that are just another adventurer in the party, since they sit comfortably on the power spectrum that they are commonly used by professionals. They just see it as business as usual, and don't take death personally (although they wouldn't take your death personally either- it is just part of the job. Trumpet archon would be torn up though, and might be depressed for months blaming himself)
Darigaaz the Igniter |
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I think most summons signed up as either community service or a potential advancement track. Basically, they earn extraplanar 'credit' for doing these jobs and reporting back what goes on. Likewise, learning a summoning spell requires, whether the caster realizes it or not, a sort of contract in order to perform. Such as service in the afterlife commensurate with the amount of summoning time they used up.
lemeres |
I think most summons signed up as either community service or a potential advancement track. Basically, they earn extraplanar 'credit' for doing these jobs and reporting back what goes on. Likewise, learning a summoning spell requires, whether the caster realizes it or not, a sort of contract in order to perform. Such as service in the afterlife commensurate with the amount of summoning time they used up.
...and thus, summoning and evil creature gives the spell the evil descriptor.
wraithstrike |
A player brought up this question to me. Summon Monster x obviously doesn't create the creature from whole cloth. How does a wizard who doesn't know how to cast a heal spell, make a monster that can cast a heal spell afterall? (did not actually check to see if there is a monster on the summon monster lists that can cast heal) So these creatures have to come from somewhere. So...where? And how do they feel about being pulled from their home and made to fight to the (temporary) death?
Most GM's just let the player know the monster's powers. However a knowledge planes check would also work. As to how they feel, the book does not care, but I would say they may not like it. They don't really die or suffer any injuries so it likely more than an inconvenience.
VRMH |
So these creatures have to come from somewhere. So...where?
Magic. They come from Magic. It's not rocket science - it's not any science. It doesn't need to make sense, it doesn't need to adhere to rules of logic or laws of conservation of energy... it's just Magic.
One moment there is nothing, the next... *poof!* a fully formed Unicorn. Without a history, or a background, or any motivations of its own.joeyfixit |
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I'm actually planning an encounter in which PC's who step into a certain room in a dungeon (and fail a Will save) will be transported to an alternate dimension to fight for an extraplanar magic user (maybe an Illithid?) to do battle with an enemy. If a PC drops from damage, he's instantly returned to homeplane and all damage and ill effects healed.
But they'll remember.
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal |
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Personally, I like to think of Summoned Creatures as essentially conscious, but in a dream-like state, similar to how Astral Projection is described. That is why, among other things, they instinctively know who/what their friends & foes are even if they don't know much more than that without you talking to them.
Ultimately, it depends on what the PC's & GM agree on.
Thanis Kartaleon |
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While it is true that Summoning
bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you
the more specific text says this:
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
Bolding added for emphasis.
This can all be found in the Magic chapter of the Core Rulebook, for reference.
So a summoned creature comes from somewhere and when it is 'slain' or the spell ends, goes back to that place. This indicates that it is a real creature from another plane, and not created (as that would be the Creation subschool anyway).
To answer the OP's question, I really like Darigaaz the Igniter's suggestion. It fits thematically, and as lemeres pointed out, neatly explains why summoning an aligned creature counts as a spell of that type.
Door-Opener the Pony on Stairs |
Door-Opener the Pony on Stairs wrote:WHY THE HELL DID YOU SUMMON ME HERE?!DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THESE ROSES AND CHOCOLATES COST?!
THEY ARE EXTREMELY HARD TO GET ON THE PLANE OF FIRE, YOU KNOW?
I MEANT WHY SUMMON ME AT THE TOP OF A FLIGHT OF STAIRS?! I AM SICK OF FALLING DOWN THEM ONLY TO BE SUMMONED AGAIN AT THE TOP!
KuntaSS |
While it is true that Summoning
PRD wrote:bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to youthe more specific text says this:
PRD wrote:A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again....
type.
Also this is supported by the description of calling spells:
Calling: a calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
Which frankly suprised me, I always assumed summons were just poof out of nowhere unless it was a calling spell.
Elbe-el |
Depends on the creature being summoned. Good aligned creatures summoned to give aid to a just or noble cause are likely to feel alright with it, or at least not feel put out. Same story for demons summoned to do what demons like to do (demons especially like being summoned, as they can carry out their proclivities in absolute safety...getting killed is just a free ticket home for them, so why not have fun?).
Any intelligent extraplanar creature, regardless of alignment, is unlikely to appreciate being ripped from it home plane (and whatever it was doing) for trivial purposes. While the summoning magic compels the creature to obey, it does not at all preclude them asking the summoner for his name...
Vincent Takeda |
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Its like a jury summons...
You have been commanded by the magic of the universe to attend a special event which, as a resident of this reality, magic bids that you are beholden to. After your service, live or die, you will be returned to your regularly scheduled programming with nothing but your memory of the event and the knowledge of the nature of your participation in the event. The time spent in this service will not be reflected in your actual timeline and you will be returned in the exact same condition at the exact same moment as you left. You may experience harm, but know that no harm will truly come to you. You will receive instructions upon your arrival what is expected of you during your summons duty. Participation is not voluntary. Have a nice day.
I like to imagine what it would be like if the 'party' was summoned. Might be a neat side adventure if say, one member of the party couldnt show up so game day had to 'temporarily be something else that didnt change the adventure...
If you had received this 'summons'... how would you feel?
lemeres |
Its like a jury summons...
You have been commanded by the magic of the universe to attend a special event which, as a resident of this reality, magic bids that you are beholden to. After your service, live or die, you will be returned to your regularly scheduled programming with nothing but your memory of the event and the knowledge of the nature of your participation in the event. The time spent in this service will not be reflected in your actual timeline and you will be returned in the exact same condition at the exact same moment as you left. You may experience harm, but know that no harm will truly come to you. You will receive instructions upon your arrival what is expected of you during your summons duty. Participation is not voluntary. Have a nice day.
I like to imagine what it would be like if the 'party' was summoned. Might be a neat side adventure if say, one member of the party couldnt show up so game day had to 'temporarily be something else that didnt change the adventure...
If you had received this 'summons'... how would you feel?
Ooooo...how about being summoned by another plane's summoner. Minutes/level could well make things more interesting. Particularly since you can be summoned 3+CHA times per day.
It could make for an interesting Plot B to an otherwise boring sidequest used as time filler.
Rogar Stonebow |
If using an SM spell actually summons an actual creature then why do they obey without question even if it goes against their nature while Calling spells that bring the creature to the Material Plane you have to work out a deal with them first and they probably won't do things against their nature?
Its because they are not accountable for their actions while summoned. Also because there entire essence is not there, they do not have the will to resist. Being called, fully in this realm they still have choices and can decide how they carry out the bargain made between you and them.
EpicFail |
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I like the creativity of the posts trying to crack the mystery of why summoning an evil creature to your bidding carries the evil descriptor. But it's no more complicated then why summoning a fire elemental carries the fire descriptor. Now if you summon an Archon to jack up a town's hospital- that's an evil act.
LazarX |
A player brought up this question to me. Summon Monster x obviously doesn't create the creature from whole cloth. How does a wizard who doesn't know how to cast a heal spell, make a monster that can cast a heal spell afterall? (did not actually check to see if there is a monster on the summon monster lists that can cast heal) So these creatures have to come from somewhere. So...where? And how do they feel about being pulled from their home and made to fight to the (temporary) death?
There's no authoritative answer. The way I operate it is folllows.
The Summon Monster spells are essentially a reverse astral projection. You pull the astral essence of an outsider and make it form a body on the plane you're summoning it too. It feels every death, every pain, and remembers everything you made it do. And if I feel like generating a story thread.... it tells others.
Douglas Muir 406 |
I'm pretty sure there's a canon or near-canon (i.e., Ask James Jacobs) reply to this somewhere.
If memory serves, it's that a summoned creature isn't the "real" creature -- it's something like a temporary duplicate. That's why it has to obey your every command, even if those commands are along the lines of "walk down this corridor and trigger traps" "throw yourself down the dragon's throat to delay it for a round while I escape" and the like.
Whether there's a real creature somewhere that knows/remembers what was done to its duplicate is AFAIK a completely open question.
Doug M.
EpicFail |
EpicFail wrote:Now if you summon an Archon to jack up a town's hospital- that's an evil act.Thing is, an Archon wouldn't agree to do that.
I do belive creatures being summoned mostly have a say in it. I don't think they just get ripped from their world and thrown into combat (oh the awkwardness).
Summoned critters have no say according to the rules. from pfsrd:
"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
IIRC Archons all have telepathy, so communication is no problem.
the David |
Yeah, no. That's not how it works. Well okay, clerics wouldn't be able to summon outsiders that oppose their alignments. Wizards and sorcerers can though. In 3.5 you had the malconvoker who would summon fiends to do good work. The opposite is so much more fun. Summoning an archon to kill orphans is just plain fun. Ofcourse, once the archons discover what you're doing with them...
LazarX |
I'm pretty sure there's a canon or near-canon (i.e., Ask James Jacobs) reply to this somewhere.
When you find it written in a book somewhere let me know. Note that it may be in a setting book. Also keep in mind as Mr. Jacobs himself says that many of his answers are in the "As I would run it" category.
Douglas Muir 406 |
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:When you find it written in a book somewhere let me know. Note that it may be in a setting book.I'm pretty sure there's a canon or near-canon (i.e., Ask James Jacobs) reply to this somewhere.
Right exactly. Paizo is now well into its seventh year, so the pile of materials is now getting pretty high -- and that's before we consider the online resources such as the Rules forum, Ask James Jacobs, and so forth. So the "dang, I just /know/ I read that somewhere" sensation is only going to get more common.
But anyway: the "temporary duplicate" rule, while odd, does make in- game sense. If you were summoning real creatures who could die, that would open some serious cans of worms.
Doug M.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:Douglas Muir 406 wrote:When you find it written in a book somewhere let me know. Note that it may be in a setting book.I'm pretty sure there's a canon or near-canon (i.e., Ask James Jacobs) reply to this somewhere.
Right exactly. Paizo is now well into its seventh year, so the pile of materials is now getting pretty high -- and that's before we consider the online resources such as the Rules forum, Ask James Jacobs, and so forth. So the "dang, I just /know/ I read that somewhere" sensation is only going to get more common.
But anyway: the "temporary duplicate" rule, while odd, does make in- game sense. If you were summoning real creatures who could die, that would open some serious cans of worms.
Doug M.
What you call opening a can of worms, I call adventure possibility, which is why I go with my interpretation. Especially for those wizards and summoners who get their jollies by summoning angels to do evil.
Douglas Muir 406 |
What you call opening a can of worms, I call adventure possibility, which is why I go with my interpretation. Especially for those wizards and summoners who get their jollies by summoning angels to do evil.
The problem is, this makes no sense at all in-game. From the summoned creature's POV, summoning is humiliating and dangerous; outsiders get summoned away from their duties and thrown into combat, often to the death. No sane deity would allow this to happen to his servants. Good-aligned characters would have to think twice before summoning. It's just a mess.
Doug M.
rungok |
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I actually had an encounter that was supposed to be several dire wolves against the party and only then realized after the encounter was met that there was a few too many.
So during the fight, a ridiculously overpowered spell circle appeared out from under one of the unharmed dire wolves and deep powerful voices in the somatic components for the summon monster spell chanted for the one round and then POOF the dire wolf disappeared.
They barely managed to finish the fight, and after a few rounds there was a pop! and the dire wolf came back, covered in rust flakes and smeared in goo. It looked at the party, the dead remainder of the pack, shook its head and walked away, grumbling.
The party was O_O
Mark Hoover |
Ok, so...
The First World is so called because it's the blueprint the gods used for the Prime right? Also some fluff in one of the books said that fey are merely spirits and they're eternal on their home turf of the First World. So from that I've ruled this: summoned creatures come from the First World.
The spirit-stuff of that place (plane? world? other?) is drawn out by the spell and given form as dictated by the summoner. As the spirit materializes and the form is dictated the nature of the Prime causes the spirit to assume the form of that creature as readily accepted by the Prime. A riding dog generally looks like X, so when a spirit is summoned and dictated to be a riding dog the Prime frames the creature to look like that.
Templates are a tad harder to explain. My theory is that the summoner siphons off a bit of the planar power from a plane corresponding to the template. A Celestial Hawk then is a First World spirit occupying the form of a hawk with a very careful, pin-prick sized siphon drawing an array of powers from a Celestial plane. This is not to say the deity(ies) native to that plane, just the plane itself.
This helped me explain to a player how, when the creature appears it always looks the same and what happens to it if the summoned monster is slain. If it IS slain, the spirit-stuff merely returns to the First World and is reborn eternal.
When you start getting into the sentient beings from other planes (elementals, mephits, demons, etc) I suppose you're literally drawing those creatures from the very planes they inhabit. I'm sure they're ticked off and I suppose that's why you need other spells to bind them more permanently and protect yourself from their retributions and such. I suppose in the case of those creatures you could also explain that they are drawn directly from the plane itself and did not exist in this form before the time of the summoning. Post-summons then the stuff of them returns to their native plane none the wiser.
boring7 |
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Rules and fluff claim that a summoned creature isn't the real creature, so when they die they don't actually die. Also, summoning a good thing is a good act, and summoning a bad thing is a bad act according to rules and fluff.
There are many ways to interpret/implement this, I'll go with the simplest one that springs to mind:
In the realms of good, being summoned is highly enjoyable community
service. You get summoned, you get to fight evil, you might die but you don't feel much pain and none of it is actually "real" because within minutes you're back home, feelin' fine and maybe a bit more knowledgeable. You have new experiences (important, since you're clinically immortal), you get a bit of magical energy putting a spring in your step, and you get that warm fuzzy feeling of doing good.
In the realms of neutral, being summoned is like a 9-to-5 job. Being summoned isn't FUN per se, but nothing permanently bad happens, the magical after-effects of the summoning have health benefits, and you have something to do with your time besides sit there in the airy void fluttering back and forth.
In the realms of evil, s*** rolls downhill. The weakest demons and devils are the ones most likely to get summoned, there are NO benefits to being summoned because those benefits are collected/devoured by higher-ranking evils. They are enslaved by higher-ranking evil critters and chained to the Summoning Magic paradigm (it's like a computer network but magical and interdimensional and FRIGHTFULLY complicated), regularly pulled into a realm of light and beauty they will NEVER get to spend an appreciable amount of time in or get to enjoy despoiling, those few moments when they get to have fun involve doing horrible evil things, and if they have too much fun their abyssal/infernal masters devour them (and their hope, joy, and experiences).
Or not, this is just what I made up.
Ravingdork |
I run them as magical effects. Even something as simple as saying they retain their memory can lead to problems like "torture via summoning." Imagine a goodly celestial being summoned by an evil entity over and over again with the full knowledge and memory that it is raping and murdering innocent children or some such horrific mind-scarring deed.
Then again...maybe that's how broken souls are made.
EpicFail |
Rules and fluff claim that a summoned creature isn't the real creature, so when they die they don't actually die. Also, summoning a good thing is a good act, and summoning a bad thing is a bad act according to rules and fluff.
The rules do not say summoning an evil critter is an evil act. They do note that summoning an evil creature creature carries the evil descriptor and that summoning a water creature carries the water descriptor. If you summon a bunch of water elementals, your risk of turning watery is pretty small.
(Again,) if one summoned an Archon to attack a hospital, that would be an evil act.Ravingdork |
boring7 wrote:Rules and fluff claim that a summoned creature isn't the real creature, so when they die they don't actually die. Also, summoning a good thing is a good act, and summoning a bad thing is a bad act according to rules and fluff.The rules do not say summoning an evil critter is an evil act. They do note that summoning an evil creature creature carries the evil descriptor and that summoning a water creature carries the water descriptor. If you summon a bunch of water elementals, your risk of turning watery is pretty small.
(Again,) if one summoned an Archon to attack a hospital, that would be an evil act.
Sadly, game developers have long since clarified that alignment descriptors do ultimately effect the caster's alignment (even though nothing in core RAW supports that).
Randarak |
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Answering OP:
I imagine its kind of like my wife summoning me to kill a spider. I mean it sure sounds like combat:
She sees the spider, and freaks out.
The spider chooses not to act in surprise round.
They both roll initiative. If the spider wins, again it chooses not to act, if it loses, my wife screams her summons.
I sigh and roll my eyes before appearing in a puff of put-upon, brandishing a fly-swatter, shoe, or whatever is handy. (weapon improvisation is a feat I took).
I attack the spider. If I don't miss the first time, combat is over.
If I miss the first time, the spider chooses to run instead of withdraw, so I get an attack of opportunity, and then combat is over.
I get a reward of breathless, semi-hysterical thank yous, before returning to my plane of existence. In this case, probably the couch.