Vanishing trick and level


Rules Questions


Reading about the shadowdancer, a friend of mine found that he could use the rogue talent to gain a ninja trick. He is playing a drunken master, and was interested to gain a near-at will invisibility.

But we disagree on the number of rounds of invisibility he could have at each use of this trick.

Here's the vanishing trick:

PRD, ninja wrote:
Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.
And the Rogue talent:
PRD, Shadowdancer wrote:
Rogue Talent: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a shadowdancer gains a special ability that allows her to confound her foes. This functions as the rogue talent class feature. A shadowdancer cannot select an individual talent more than once. If a shadowdancer has the advanced talents rogue class feature, she can chose from the advanced talents list instead.

3 possibility here:

- He has 1 round per character level
- He has 1 round per ninja level (and he doesn't have one, so 0)
- He has 1 round per class that took the trick (so 1 round per Shadowdancer level)

Most of the other tricks states "equal to her class level" or "by ninja level".

Is there any rule on this ?
I was pretty sure that except when it stated "character level", a level was considered a "class level".


It would be 1 round per shadowdancer level. The devs have stated previously (and there's some other giant messes associated with it) that any reference to "level" within a class refers only to that class unless stated otherwise. If it's an exception it will say "character level" instead of just "level". Since Shadowdancer grants the rogue talent, shadowdancer levels count for rogue levels for the talent (and by extension ninja levels).


The third option.


If someone could give me a quote, that could be nice.

I can't find it for now.


Top of page 31.

Core Rulebook wrote:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on the character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

So it defaults to class level if it's a class ability.

I can't find the dev quote though.


All class abilities are based on level of the class in particular except in the rare cases where they're specified as being based on hit dice or character level or something else.


Thank you. I'll see if it convince him.

Another question: Because the shadowdancer Rogue Talent don't spell it out, do you really count as rogue for the rogue talents ?

I think they just missed it, but the "advanced talent" part bugs me a little.
I think it can be read as they just consider the character has rogue levels and must use it for the talents.

Any idea ?


It requires several useless feat taxes that don't actually help the class and ranks in a skill only bards use (remember, no dervish dance when this first appeared). In return it front-loads hide in plain sight and a flanking companion. Clearly this cluster@#$% of helpfulness is designed for rogues. ...despite not requiring sneak attack, the iconic rogue ability.

Short answer it seems to think you're going into Shadowdancer to be rogue-like, so will be using Rogue. Two of the abilities are just "take these specific rogue advanced talents". So if you go Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10 you have access to advanced talents and can take them with the Rogue Talent ability of the Shadowdancer.

The real problem is that I don't see anything actually combining Rogue and Shadowdancer for talents. It doesn't say "levels of Shadowdancer stack with anything that grants rogue talents for determining what your talents do". As written that Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10 has two Rogue levels for talents, 10 and 10, but since he has advanced talents on the Rogue side (if he does that first) then he can choose to take only advanced talents on the shadowdancer side.

Shorter answer, even if you went Rogue before Shadowdancer nothing in Shadowdancer says it stacks with Rogue levels for Talents, so Talents you pick with Shadowdancer only use Shadowdancer levels.


HectorVivis, are you the DM? If so, that should be all the info you need :)

If not, then i would just posit bobbobbob's quote and let him or her make up their mind.

If it's PFS play, chances are the PFS DM is going to go with shadowdancer level, due to that quote.

I thought the Ninja class said that ninjas could take rogues talents, but not vice versa. Perhaps i misread that.


ENHenry wrote:

...

I thought the Ninja class said that ninjas could take rogues talents, but not vice versa. Perhaps i misread that.

Ultimate Combat added Ninja Trick as a Rogue talent.


We're just "theory-crafting" as some could say. Our goal is to have our concepts OK on RAW.
In my games, I'm used to be a little "strict" on this. I'm not really fond of houserules (even if I make some).

Bob*3: My reading is a little different: For a rogue talent (let's just stick with rogue for now) that specifically ask for your rogue level, I would argue that, RAW, it doesn't use your shadowdancer level at all, because nothing say you do.
By this reading, rogues level are mandatory to take most of the talent... And that suck. Hard.

We'll probably house-rule it I think.

Edit: Meh, after reading it again, it would be an extreme reading. I think your point of view is better. We'll probably rule it as you do.

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